utctscanr75
New member
All in all, I think the competition is good. While I will not likely trade my Runner anytime soon, having more competition will hopefully motivate Toyota to fine tune the 4Runner even more in years to come. Win win IMO.
This will be interesting...
- Thread starter DEF4Runner
- Start date
delloro
New member
I think Toyota could have used the Bronco competition 5 years ago. We may have seen a manual trans, more auto trans gears, more dedicated off-road options.
If the 4-door Bronco cuts in to 4runner sales, they will have to do something, and they already have a Highlander and the Lexus, so they shouldn't soften it up.
Would have loved a stripped version with lockers, lift, and 33-in tires. A real roof rack option.
If the 4-door Bronco cuts in to 4runner sales, they will have to do something, and they already have a Highlander and the Lexus, so they shouldn't soften it up.
Would have loved a stripped version with lockers, lift, and 33-in tires. A real roof rack option.
Baystate4Runner
New member
It looks like Jeep hinted today that there is a V8 HEMI coming for the Wrangler!
Ford is doing the off-road market a great service with the release of the Bronco.
Competition is good...looking forward to Toyota’s answer.
Ford is doing the off-road market a great service with the release of the Bronco.
Competition is good...looking forward to Toyota’s answer.
I am also looking forward to Toyota’s answer. The way I see it they will be forced to offer a topless option 4Runner with door removal ability or loose market share. About time IMO!!! Or better yet take the 4Runner back to its roots with, in addition to above a solid front axle and own, yes own the 4WD market. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Well, the press material is out:
https://www.ford.com/suvs/bronco/2021/?intcmp=hp-bb-bronco
Lots of options. It's a nice start. We'll see how they drive and how realiable they are, but I give Ford credit for going all-in. It sure would be nice if Toyota became just a little interested in this segment. And no, I don't mean more TRD badges and blackout overlays.
https://www.ford.com/suvs/bronco/2021/?intcmp=hp-bb-bronco
Lots of options. It's a nice start. We'll see how they drive and how realiable they are, but I give Ford credit for going all-in. It sure would be nice if Toyota became just a little interested in this segment. And no, I don't mean more TRD badges and blackout overlays.
cmilviper
New member
Not that I would replace my 4Runner for one (maybe the wife's), but I could see myself adding a "Carbonized Gray" or "Area 51" colored Bronco on 35's, front/rear lockers ect to the garage one day.......I have to admit, they look pretty good.....Just picture a roof rack, sliders, and a lift on this thing....
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Thebeastlives
New member
They look fabulous and Ford will market this as a Ford tough vehicle and your local malls will be full of them. It is definitely a stock vehicle that on paper needs minimal upgrades for hitting the desert, mud or rocks. Unfortunately it has Ford quality and Chinese made parts and will be guaranteed to fail. So I will stick with my 4 runners and modified them like true offroaders do and always get back home without a tow truck. Who the hell wants a stock vehicle that looks just like the soccer mom, customization has always been how you make your truck or suv different than the herd.
EddieV4runnin
New member
So a front locker on IFS for this Bronco???
bring_it_on
New member
It's good to have competition. I think this will give the Gladiator a good run in that space. And likely many considering the 4Runner as well. For me, had i had the option of buying the T4R or the Bronco when I did (last year) I would have stuck with the T4R. I paid less than $34K for my new TRD OR with 4x4, rear diff locker, and ATRAC. And that for a made in Tahara J150 plaform vehicle. And the trusted motor that will outlast anything I desire from this vehicle. I am willing to sacrifice things like fuel consumption, looks etc for something that will serve my needs for the next decade or two. With the way these things hold their value, that, to me, is a steal.
But my use case may be different. I never wanted to go 35 or 37"' on the 4Runner or drive excessively on 4x4 trails (would have gone in for a slightly used Raptor if I wanted all that). I bought it for touring, camping and for some occasional 4x4 trails when I get the chance. My dream is to spend a month in Alaska with it and to drive it through Central America one day. I didn't buy the T4R because I thought it was the absolute and best off-road vehicle ever built. I bought it because it met 100% of my on road and off road (with my desired payload) needs (either as is or via available modifications) while being a tried and tested platform that will have no problem affordably running for the 150+k miles that I'm likely to put before I'm done with it. Much like the LC100/200, I have options on the 4runner now and I can upgrade it as my needs change. A long range fuel tank, E-lockers for the front, and a myriad of choices when it comes to rear bumpers and other equipment. Because it is quite a reliable vehicle I don't have to budget for huge mechanical, electrical or power-train related expenses over its lifecycle and can spend that money on upgrading it to suite my evolving needs.
This isn't a play truck for me. If I could afford a play truck, I would love to own a Rubicon with 37" mud terrains and enough armor to survive an IED blast. I can see those who push their vehicles hard on the weekends or desire 35-37" tires move towards the Bronco or the Gladiator. My T4R doesn't have its own Instagram account
. I don't ever intend on posting a billion photos of it on social media like some of the influencer/IG celebs do. I bet those will probably shift to the Bronco because its a new canvas for them to grow their SM profile..Some will likely follow them towards the new vehicle and away from the 4Runner or even Jeep/RAM platforms.
With the "more affordable landcruiser" rumors abound just about the only thing that may get me to sell the 4runner earlier than planned is if Toyota can deliver something like a modern FZJ80 but under $50K. Or something that is as capable as a T4R and delivers 500 mile internal gas tank range from the factory. With the Tundra, Land Cruiser, Tacoma and the 4Runner lines likely to be overhauled in the next 5 years it would be interesting to see where Toyota goes but at least there is competition now which points to there being a good demand and a market willing to pay for things like diff lockers and customization. Perhaps it is time to bring the FJ Cruiser back?
But my use case may be different. I never wanted to go 35 or 37"' on the 4Runner or drive excessively on 4x4 trails (would have gone in for a slightly used Raptor if I wanted all that). I bought it for touring, camping and for some occasional 4x4 trails when I get the chance. My dream is to spend a month in Alaska with it and to drive it through Central America one day. I didn't buy the T4R because I thought it was the absolute and best off-road vehicle ever built. I bought it because it met 100% of my on road and off road (with my desired payload) needs (either as is or via available modifications) while being a tried and tested platform that will have no problem affordably running for the 150+k miles that I'm likely to put before I'm done with it. Much like the LC100/200, I have options on the 4runner now and I can upgrade it as my needs change. A long range fuel tank, E-lockers for the front, and a myriad of choices when it comes to rear bumpers and other equipment. Because it is quite a reliable vehicle I don't have to budget for huge mechanical, electrical or power-train related expenses over its lifecycle and can spend that money on upgrading it to suite my evolving needs.
This isn't a play truck for me. If I could afford a play truck, I would love to own a Rubicon with 37" mud terrains and enough armor to survive an IED blast. I can see those who push their vehicles hard on the weekends or desire 35-37" tires move towards the Bronco or the Gladiator. My T4R doesn't have its own Instagram account
. I don't ever intend on posting a billion photos of it on social media like some of the influencer/IG celebs do. I bet those will probably shift to the Bronco because its a new canvas for them to grow their SM profile..Some will likely follow them towards the new vehicle and away from the 4Runner or even Jeep/RAM platforms. With the "more affordable landcruiser" rumors abound just about the only thing that may get me to sell the 4runner earlier than planned is if Toyota can deliver something like a modern FZJ80 but under $50K. Or something that is as capable as a T4R and delivers 500 mile internal gas tank range from the factory. With the Tundra, Land Cruiser, Tacoma and the 4Runner lines likely to be overhauled in the next 5 years it would be interesting to see where Toyota goes but at least there is competition now which points to there being a good demand and a market willing to pay for things like diff lockers and customization. Perhaps it is time to bring the FJ Cruiser back?
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Gecko
New member
Like most here, I respect and admire what Ford has done with this Bronco. It's a pretty impressive package when you consider the number of models, options, net-new platform and off-road tech and more. Toyota would do well to make a similar level of investment in the next gen BOF products.
Outside of forums, social media and offroad parks, the 4Runner is most often cross shopped with the Grand Cherokee and the Highlander... less so the Wrangler, except for TRD PRO/TRDOR trims. From my POV, the 4Runner really is a different type of vehicle than a Bronco or a Wrangler - it's more refined, easier to live with, much higher quality and more luxurious if you so desire it.
This forum represents ~<5% of people who buy a 4Runner, and I know that hurts everyone's feelings to hear but it's the cold hard truth. If you are expecting Toyota to abandon the 4Runner formula (4 doors, comfortable and well built, high quality, easy to drive on the highway), I think you will be disappointed. Most of the people who buy a 4Runner for all of those reasons don't want 35s, removable tops, removable doors, etc. If they did, they would have bought a Wrangler. Those of you/us in the 5% have no problem buying that vehicle as the base and upgrading/outfitting it to fit your needs with the type of upgrades you can't get from the factory.
The disappointing thing here is this is a perfect time for an FJ Cruiser return. I remember years ago there were internal proposals for 4 doors, removable roof, removable doors, more offroad gear... but the recession and high gas prices killed off a 2nd gen FJ Cruiser. There's as much of a case for a 2nd gen FJ and a 6th gen 4Runner as there is for the existence of the Wrangler and the Grand Cherokee. We just have to wonder if Toyota sees the value.
Back to this Bronco: again, I'm impressed. However, for as much as the internet jokes about FORD and it's various acronym options, I have personal experience with friends and family owning Ford products with EcoBoost disasters, transmissions going out at 50k, compressors going out at 60k, HVAC units dying at 70k, the list goes on. The new Explorer and Aviator have been disasters from a quality perspective, and while being completely new is part of what makes this Bronco great, it's also pretty concerning considering the parent brand.
My 4Runner may not be fast, new or efficient, but I didn't buy it for any of those reasons in the first place and I'll be happy to wait with it until the next generation arrives.
Outside of forums, social media and offroad parks, the 4Runner is most often cross shopped with the Grand Cherokee and the Highlander... less so the Wrangler, except for TRD PRO/TRDOR trims. From my POV, the 4Runner really is a different type of vehicle than a Bronco or a Wrangler - it's more refined, easier to live with, much higher quality and more luxurious if you so desire it.
This forum represents ~<5% of people who buy a 4Runner, and I know that hurts everyone's feelings to hear but it's the cold hard truth. If you are expecting Toyota to abandon the 4Runner formula (4 doors, comfortable and well built, high quality, easy to drive on the highway), I think you will be disappointed. Most of the people who buy a 4Runner for all of those reasons don't want 35s, removable tops, removable doors, etc. If they did, they would have bought a Wrangler. Those of you/us in the 5% have no problem buying that vehicle as the base and upgrading/outfitting it to fit your needs with the type of upgrades you can't get from the factory.
The disappointing thing here is this is a perfect time for an FJ Cruiser return. I remember years ago there were internal proposals for 4 doors, removable roof, removable doors, more offroad gear... but the recession and high gas prices killed off a 2nd gen FJ Cruiser. There's as much of a case for a 2nd gen FJ and a 6th gen 4Runner as there is for the existence of the Wrangler and the Grand Cherokee. We just have to wonder if Toyota sees the value.
Back to this Bronco: again, I'm impressed. However, for as much as the internet jokes about FORD and it's various acronym options, I have personal experience with friends and family owning Ford products with EcoBoost disasters, transmissions going out at 50k, compressors going out at 60k, HVAC units dying at 70k, the list goes on. The new Explorer and Aviator have been disasters from a quality perspective, and while being completely new is part of what makes this Bronco great, it's also pretty concerning considering the parent brand.
My 4Runner may not be fast, new or efficient, but I didn't buy it for any of those reasons in the first place and I'll be happy to wait with it until the next generation arrives.
Jetboy
New member
FWIW - Ford killed it. Absolutely hit it out of the park on this one.
I'd need to drive one before forming any real opinion - but it look absolutely killer on paper.
Factory beadlocks, 35s, 92:1 crawl ratio, 310hp/400ftlbs, removeable top, real skid plates, modern infotainment, and less$ than a TRD Pro? I think this is going to take a bunch of sales from both the 4R and Wrangler. Frankly - I think it's going to make a real challenge to some UTVs too. It's in the same price range as a lot of high spec UTVs and might be a real replacement. Possibly including my own if Toyota doesn't massively upgrade the 4Runner. The 4R was great in 2010. It's not so great in 2020. And if Toyota actually waits until 2024 to bring out a new 4Runner - I'll be long gone by then.
My hesitations are Ford quality. Let's not forget that a Tundra is still likely to win a head to head desert race with a Raptor despite all the advantages the Raptor has on paper. Because it's simply far more durable. The Raptor is fragile. I really hope that the Bronco solved many of the quality and engineering shortcomings of the Raptor. Visually it looks like a lot of them are resolved. Time will tell.
I'm also very curious about the top. How easy is it to remove? Can it be done alone? And most importantly how is the driving experience with the top on? Long highway trips in a wrangler are exhausting due to noise from the top. The removal is a breeze now. But it's still poorly sealed for wind noise and that makes family road trips a no-go. Hopefully Ford went over and above to make a great hard top.
The other issue for me personally is that the interior is small and with a kid - camping requires a lot more crap. Also the tow capacity is pretty low and the brakes must be small if it fits 16" wheels. I do frequently tow a camp trailer and am looking at upgrading to a slightly larger one that would be over the limit of a 3500lb tow capacity. Even most pop top offroad campers exceed that weight. I suspect with the v6 ecoboost and 10 speed it actually tows much better than the 4R. Not sure why the weight rating is so low unless it's a cooling capacity issue.
I also haven't seen mpg numbers yet. But I'd bet they're better than the 4R.
I'm guessing there are some aftermarket companies that are not so happy. It's rolling off the lot with most of what people add. If you compared the as-built cost of a 4Runner with a lift, tires, bumpers, skids, beadlocks, etc. It's probably $10k or more cheaper.
I'd need to drive one before forming any real opinion - but it look absolutely killer on paper.
Factory beadlocks, 35s, 92:1 crawl ratio, 310hp/400ftlbs, removeable top, real skid plates, modern infotainment, and less$ than a TRD Pro? I think this is going to take a bunch of sales from both the 4R and Wrangler. Frankly - I think it's going to make a real challenge to some UTVs too. It's in the same price range as a lot of high spec UTVs and might be a real replacement. Possibly including my own if Toyota doesn't massively upgrade the 4Runner. The 4R was great in 2010. It's not so great in 2020. And if Toyota actually waits until 2024 to bring out a new 4Runner - I'll be long gone by then.
My hesitations are Ford quality. Let's not forget that a Tundra is still likely to win a head to head desert race with a Raptor despite all the advantages the Raptor has on paper. Because it's simply far more durable. The Raptor is fragile. I really hope that the Bronco solved many of the quality and engineering shortcomings of the Raptor. Visually it looks like a lot of them are resolved. Time will tell.
I'm also very curious about the top. How easy is it to remove? Can it be done alone? And most importantly how is the driving experience with the top on? Long highway trips in a wrangler are exhausting due to noise from the top. The removal is a breeze now. But it's still poorly sealed for wind noise and that makes family road trips a no-go. Hopefully Ford went over and above to make a great hard top.
The other issue for me personally is that the interior is small and with a kid - camping requires a lot more crap. Also the tow capacity is pretty low and the brakes must be small if it fits 16" wheels. I do frequently tow a camp trailer and am looking at upgrading to a slightly larger one that would be over the limit of a 3500lb tow capacity. Even most pop top offroad campers exceed that weight. I suspect with the v6 ecoboost and 10 speed it actually tows much better than the 4R. Not sure why the weight rating is so low unless it's a cooling capacity issue.
I also haven't seen mpg numbers yet. But I'd bet they're better than the 4R.
I'm guessing there are some aftermarket companies that are not so happy. It's rolling off the lot with most of what people add. If you compared the as-built cost of a 4Runner with a lift, tires, bumpers, skids, beadlocks, etc. It's probably $10k or more cheaper.
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RichinRidgewood
New member
facepalm
You just supported what I've been thinking/posting. Its a big expensive, and probably leaky and noisy, toy.
bring_it_on
New member
Value means different things to different people though I agree as a turnkey product (though isn't some of the fun building up your rig?) it will be very attractive if they offer it at those price points. We don't know what markups look like for particular higher performance models. We see huge variations on even the TRD PROs here by region and time of the year. The verdict on reliability and performance is also out.
If I put $10-12K into my 4Runner (on mods) which is just a basic TRD OR at least I have a platform that
A) Can last a long time so that I recover that investment
B) Holds its value and doesnt depreciate like crazy right off of the dealership
Ford will have to build that reputation with this new Bronco. At least they are thinking about this category so that's a positive sign. More competition keeps competitors honest and puts some pricing pressure on after market suppliers as well....."The new Bronco is coming..so let's slash the 4Runner rear bumper price by 40%
"
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Finslayer83
New member
I bought a new 2017 SCREW 5.0 FX4 and promptly gave it the full ICON treatment and 34's.
Great Truck.
Why did I sell it? For a $50k truck the door locks froze in the winter due to shit engineering (alum and steel). It's not fun when you are trying to heat up the truck / get little ones in their car seats when the doors will not close.
I drove at lease a dozen times with ratchet straps holding the doors closed until it heats up. Hell I live in TN, this would happen when it was 30 outside in the morning.
2x "TSB / recall" trips to fix it and nada - still happened. This was after waiting 5 month on parts and several calls to Ford. Finally a bunch of videos on IG and squaking got them to do the "second level" fix. Still froze.
I had enough of it and sold it and bought my 17 TRDP in April. Depreciation on Ford sucks too.
That said, this Bronco is hitting out the gate on paper as a boss. Factory steel bumpers, sliders, f/r lockers, and 35's? Good lord we spend how much to get there? Ford did it's homework on this one.
Like others have said I need to sit in one and drive it. If there is a Wrangler sized storage area - I'll pass as we have 2 little ones and need space to haul their stuff around.
If it is so awesome I can possibly get over those points and might get in on one late 2021/2022.
The pacakages offered are great IMO and will jolt the market place quickly. Sadly I don't think Toyota will respond quick enough - this will eat into the crowd who wants a 4R to take on the trails. Deny all you want to ( I love Toyota) but this on paper is a massive disruption to the marketplace.
I for one will be watching in the shadows.
Game changer, big time. I will be watching from the sidelines as well. Not ready to give up my Toyota reliability just yet until we see how this one holds up. Toyota waited WAY too long and will see less sales because of it. If they don’t step up with their own game changer my next 4X4 will not be Yota. At the very least they need removable hardtop and doors, more underbelly clearance, WAY better approach and departure angles(one of the worst aspects of 4Runner) and ability to run 35’ tire with NO mods. Tired of buying into them when they are supplying FJ70’s new in other markets and ignoring 4X4 owners here in USA! Are you listening Toyota? That sucking sound you will be hearing soon is sales going down the toilet for your 4X4 market here. Incidentally I am a Toyota fan, own 2 FJ40’s and would never part with either. What do others think?
salsanacho
New member
I'm excited to see how this new Bronco drives, combined with more info on the upcoming 4Runner refresh, next year should be interesting.
That said, I wouldn't jump on a first model year product from Ford. Maybe a Toyota I'd feel comfortable, but I normally like a year or two to iron out the bugs that come with a new product.
That said, I wouldn't jump on a first model year product from Ford. Maybe a Toyota I'd feel comfortable, but I normally like a year or two to iron out the bugs that come with a new product.
bring_it_on
New member
I think you are on the right track, though I don't want the 4runner to become the vehicle you envision they develop. Perhaps it could be the NG FJ or something different? I hope the Next Gen. 4Runner retains a mid-sized SUV status and is comfortable and practical enough as a vehicle that is great for the family while also being great as an overland vehicle where range, payload, safety and performance and are balanced.
Do I wish the 79 was sold in the US? Absolutely! But look at the economics on that vehicle. Only comes in a diesel, is extremely expensive, and they didn't even think it was worthwhile/viable to correct the track. It has little competition for what it does once the defender went away. Will a 79 series, upgraded with a gasoline engine sell well in the US? I highly doubt it. It will be expensive, and lack most of the creature comforts or the on road performance that folks here would demand. I doubt it would be a viable product even in the Aussie market if it weren't for ranchers/farmers and miners. The troopy, stock, looks like an old ambulance van to those who don't know better. Unless you are "Jeep", with the tradition and cult following in the US, I seriously doubt that you can make a brand new solid front axle vehicle profitable in our market. Just imagine the reviews it would get for ride, comfort or practicality. The vehicle has been refined into something that eats up bad roads, no roads and can last years in that environment while still being affordable to maintain. That's the environment it gets put through in Africa and in parts of the Australian outback. We don't have that environment here outside of 4x4 trails (for the most part). So Toyota would essentially be asking folks to give up majority of things that make a vehicle comfortable for 99.9% of its usage in exchange for the ability to take a pounding on washboards, gravel roads, and unmaintained tracks - things which pretty much 99.9% of US don't have to deal with on a regular basis. That sounds like a failure to me.
I'm all in on Toyota developing a smaller 4x4 truck that they've ignored since they took the FJ away. I think even an FJ brought back with a more efficient engine and some cosmetic upgrades could sell well in the new market that appears to be willing to pay for these capabilities. I just don't think the 4Runner should change to become that. Not unless they follow that up with a sub $50K next gen landcruiser which could occupy the void left by the 4Runner if this were to happen. The brilliance of the 4Runner is that it can attract buyers who would also consider something like the Jeep GC, or even things like the Explorer, and yet get a truck that is significantly more capable off road and more reliable long term. There really isn't anything in that category and I hope Toyota doesn't get out of this market in the future.
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