Throttle response on 14' 4RUNNER vs 13' FJ TT

[wfo9]

Yeah, me too. But I'd like to hear from someone who actually knows.
[MENTION=48413]Quentin[/MENTION] ? [MENTION=97423]Donkey[/MENTION] ?

I can tell you from digging into the depths of about 4 difference ECUs (non Toyota). Just basic common sense would tell you that learning commanded throttle input would be near impossible (you can't read the drivers mind).

There is some learning in this area related to throttle blade motor actuation and IAC (idle). There is also some learning around transmission shift pressures... but commanded throttle learning is an internet myth until someone can prove it to me with some code or at least some pseudo logic of the algorithm.

 

[wfo9]

One thing to add, the soft broad low end pedal does feel nice in off-road and slick conditions. Its ideal in 4L

 

[flatspin]

One thing to add, the soft broad low end pedal does feel nice in off-road and slick conditions. Its ideal in 4L

We need another switch:

Sport Car <=== Truck

 

[8086bruce]

My 15 is as big a pig as my 07 was maybe even worse. But I can't emagine buying a rig that weighs as much as the 4Runner does with a naturally aspirated V6 and expecting it would be "fast" or "responsive".

Then we all put lifts and bigger tires on them and exaggerate the problem! Stupid toyota!

 

[wfo9]

My 15 is as big a pig as my 07 was maybe even worse. But I can't emagine buying a rig that weighs as much as the 4Runner does with a naturally aspirated V6 and expecting it would be "fast" or "responsive".

Then we all put lifts and bigger tires on them and exaggerate the problem! Stupid toyota!

Just to be clear, I think everyone knows its not a sports car or a good tow rig... but what people are noticing is that the part throttle response does not seem to match the WOT performance. Everyone seems to agree that they get up and go quite well once the throttle is pushed pretty hard...

The obvious answer is just to push pedal down more, but the OP wanted to know if there was a way to tweak the throttle response. Not tweak the motor output.

 

[Tronner]

Why wouldn't you want to push the pedal harder?

I agree with those who said I shouldn't have to. It's not that hard to create a simple switch for sport mode or economy mode. Or when you shift the lever over into S mode have it switch the throttle input as well. My 2008 STi had it stock. It had three throttle maps on a dial in fact. Then through open source ECU tuning you could change them any way you liked. Yeah I know it's a sports car, BUT I just drove my dad's F150 and the thing MOVES when you give it throttle input. It's not a sports car, but it has a more responsive throttle.

Then why buy a 4runner you ask? Well there are a myriad of other reasons why I wanted the 4runner because it offered many things that no other SUV offered. The ONE big thing I don't like is the throttle response. Having to jam on the throttle to get the thing to move makes it FEEL like the car has no power, and I don't like that feel.

I'm definitely getting more and more used to pushing the pedal harder, but I would love to have access to the map so I can make it drive the way I like.

 

[1engineer]

I agree with those who said I shouldn't have to. It's not that hard to create a simple switch for sport mode or economy mode. Or when you shift the lever over into S mode have it switch the throttle input as well. My 2008 STi had it stock. It had three throttle maps on a dial in fact. Then through open source ECU tuning you could change them any way you liked. Yeah I know it's a sports car, BUT I just drove my dad's F150 and the thing MOVES when you give it throttle input. It's not a sports car, but it has a more responsive throttle.

Then why buy a 4runner you ask? Well there are a myriad of other reasons why I wanted the 4runner because it offered many things that no other SUV offered. The ONE big thing I don't like is the throttle rqesponse. Having to jam on the throttle to get the thing to move makes it FEEL like the car has no power, and I don't like that feel.

I'm definitely getting more and more used to pushing the pedal harder, but I would love to have access to the map so I can make it drive the way I like.

What mods have you done to your truck?

 

[Tronner]

What mods have you done to your truck?

5100's all around, Toytec Eibach 1.75" lift springs in front, Level 8 MK6 wheels with stock size Wrangler Duratracs (2 lbs heavier than stock - Level 8's are about 2 lbs lighter).

That's it.

 

[1engineer]

5100's all around, Toytec Eibach 1.75" lift springs in front, Level 8 MK6 wheels with stock size Wrangler Duratracs (2 lbs heavier than stock - Level 8's are about 2 lbs lighter).

That's it.

Thanks. Saw a picture of it in another thread and thought it looked good!

 

[Waterman2112]

Mapping?

Two things:
1. Unhook your battery for about an hour. Re connect and drive it like you stole it for a few weeks.
2. You would be surprised how much a few hundred pounds can change the feel of acceleration. It really is a big deal. Weight does not change top speed much but it ddefinitely will change how fast you get there. Have you added LT tires? Unsprung weight is the worst for slowing down the acceleration.

I’ve heard of this (battery disconnect) to reset certain ECU/ECM functions… specifically; failure codes, or trouble codes with other vehicles I’ve worked on when using diagnostic meters to under-dash multi-pin connectors. You seem to be saying here that this disconnection (1 hr.) will reset… and then by driving it hard will recondition any EPROMs in the system based on that hard driving with regards to throttle position, timing advance and the like? Interesting. Is this based on actual experience or published data, or both?

Lars

 

[1engineer]

I’ve heard of this (battery disconnect) to reset certain ECU/ECM functions… specifically; failure codes, or trouble codes with other vehicles I’ve worked on when using diagnostic meters to under-dash multi-pin connectors. You seem to be saying here that this disconnection (1 hr.) will reset… and then by driving it hard will recondition any EPROMs in the system based on that hard driving with regards to throttle position, timing advance and the like? Interesting. Is this based on actual experience or published data, or both?

Lars

The only proof I personally have is hearsay and seat of the pants dyno results.

My first 5th gen 4Runner had several hundred miles on it when I bought it new. I drove three or four on the lot that day (some with zero miles) and though there was a bit of a difference in acceleration. Their service manager told me they would disconnect the battery which would reset the "learned" driving habits. Then he told me what I told you.

After joining this forum this solution was a topic several times and many other guys besides me also knew of this. So I wish I had true real data to show you but I don't. I personally felt the difference and then didn't think anymore about it. If you want I can ask an engineer friend of mine about it and if it's in the data designated public domain then he would send me something.

I currently have my name on the title of four late model (Me, two children, wife) vehicles and their acceleration characteristics are all different. My neighbor just got a new CTS-V Cadillac (2013 but new) and it accelerated differently too lol.

 

[philsey]

The only proof I personally have is hearsay and seat of the pants dyno results.

My first 5th gen 4Runner had several hundred miles on it when I bought it new. I drove three or four on the lot that day (some with zero miles) and though there was a bit of a difference in acceleration. Their service manager told me they would disconnect the battery which would reset the "learned" driving habits. Then he told me what I told you.

After joining this forum this solution was a topic several times and many other guys besides me also knew of this. So I wish I had true real data to show you but I don't. I personally felt the difference and then didn't think anymore about it. If you want I can ask an engineer friend of mine about it and if it's in the data designated public domain then he would send me something.
.

Greg, you do have "proof". I'm pretty sure [MENTION=48413]Quentin[/MENTION] knows of what he speaks.

It does not. The AT will "learn" your driving which can slightly alter the abruptness and timing of shifts, but the throttle is purely position based.

Methinks "learned driving habits" ranks right up there with "Invoice price". Urban myth. Sounds good though, eh?

 

[1engineer]

Greg, you do have "proof". I'm pretty sure [MENTION=48413]Quentin[/MENTION] knows of what he speaks.




Methinks "learned driving habits" ranks right up there with "Invoice price". Urban myth. Sounds good though, eh?

Yes he does. He is constrained on what he can publish though. I have no such rules lol. I was just trying to be "politically correct" with my answer.

 

[wfo9]

Greg, you do have "proof". I'm pretty sure [MENTION=48413]Quentin[/MENTION] knows of what he speaks.
Methinks "learned driving habits" ranks right up there with "Invoice price". Urban myth. Sounds good though, eh?

Here is my experience from digging into a few different modern ECUs that have been fully reverse engineered. I'll start by saying they are all different, but most support the same general concepts. I've been out of it for a while, I have not touched this stuff since 2007 or so, but I don't think the fundamentals have changed.

There are many things that are "learned" that have impact on SOTP performance. A few off the top of my head.
- Timing adjusters based on recorded knock sensing patterns (fuel octane adjusters). This is why you get more power on premium
- Long term fuel trims based on o2 readings in different load cells (there is generally one cell for WOT, but no learning is done there due to narrow-band o2). It gets its adjustment from the last stiochometric commanded load cell
- Transmission shift pressures (these get really different depending on the transmission internals, think shift speed...)

One of the biggest things you will find in the ECU killing power (but not learned) is something called Torque mgt. It is basically a governor to protect the drive-train. This is mainly used during shifts and leaves a lot of performance on the table in favor of reliability.

I've never encountered anything around commanded throttle. There is usually a simple static calibration map going from hardware input (either voltage or frequency) to a commanded %number. It is amazing what tweaking it will do to perceived performance . And yes, sometimes there are multiple maps based on a driving mode.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

Here is what a member on the toyotanation forum had to say about "learn mode". This was posted in a Camry forum if my memory serves me right. He claimed to have been a dealer tech for 28 yrs. Perhaps it applies as well to 4Runners. BlackWorksInc could validate I'm sure:

Removal of the battery will not cause a change in the ecm flash. I do suggest this however. Disconnect the battery ground and wait 10 seconds. Touch the ground to the positive and hold there for 10 seconds. Wait 5 minutes. Repeat the ground to positive for 10 seconds and then reconnect. This puts it into learn mode. Take it on an aggressive test drive on 95 Or 476 or 276. I suggest you do this AFTER replacement of the filter.

By filter - he meant transmission filter.

 

[Ras_Thavas]

When I was changing the way the door locks and windows worked via the tech stream software I thought I saw an option to turn off eco mode. I wonder now if it will improve throttle response or just disable the light on the dash.

 

[Engineer]

When I was changing the way the door locks and windows worked via the tech stream software I thought I saw an option to turn off eco mode. I wonder now if it will improve throttle response or just disable the light on the dash.

I think that actually shuts the eco "bar" off in the dash display but does not effect throttle response

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Here is what a member on the toyotanation forum had to say about "learn mode". This was posted in a Camry forum if my memory serves me right. He claimed to have been a dealer tech for 28 yrs. Perhaps it applies as well to 4Runners. BlackWorksInc could validate I'm sure:

Removal of the battery will not cause a change in the ecm flash. I do suggest this however. Disconnect the battery ground and wait 10 seconds. Touch the ground to the positive and hold there for 10 seconds. Wait 5 minutes. Repeat the ground to positive for 10 seconds and then reconnect. This puts it into learn mode. Take it on an aggressive test drive on 95 Or 476 or 276. I suggest you do this AFTER replacement of the filter.

By filter - he meant transmission filter.

Basically you're just erasing the temporary memory of the vehicle. There's an option via the TechStream to erase the transmission learned values as well that does the same thing. It doesn't change throttle response, it just helps the transmission learn what to do with it a bit better; but even then its only a very limited scope.

I think that actually shuts the eco "bar" off in the dash display but does not effect throttle response

You can't turn the ECO programming off, it is embedded in the ECM's flash on how to operate the vehicle. You can however turn the ECO bar/indicator off via the TechStream.