Thanks for the nice comments. The volks are just transferred over from my 99 though but they do work way better with the white than they did with the silver. I'm still debating if I want to refinish them. As for the CTR, I'm not sure how it stacks up to it's competition but I think its about the same fun factor as my former RS4 without all the German complications. Handles about the same, with understeer and pick up / response but with all the modern day smart key features, android powered car play unit, auto rev match, on top of it being a hatch so it's just as useful at the hardware store. It's my daily to work while the 4runner is reserved for long distance commute and wet weather but the 4runner is still my favorite car out of the three (IS300 being third, which it's still a great car).
TiVo V8 Build
- Thread starter tv4184
- Start date
Thanks for the nice comments. The volks are just transferred over from my 99 though but they do work way better with the white than they did with the silver. I'm still debating if I want to refinish them. As for the CTR, I'm not sure how it stacks up to it's competition but I think its about the same fun factor as my former RS4 without all the German complications. Handles about the same, with understeer and pick up / response but with all the modern day smart key features, android powered car play unit, auto rev match, on top of it being a hatch so it's just as useful at the hardware store. It's my daily to work while the 4runner is reserved for long distance commute and wet weather but the 4runner is still my favorite car out of the three (IS300 being third, which it's still a great car).
Flash Runner
New member
Man, sounds about right for a good daily haha I also just have a thing for hatches as I do still miss my old "breakdown prone" speed3! I agree the IS300 is a great car! My Mom has one currently and it definitely would be a debate if I was in the market for that vs an Audi/BMW
Finally programmed the key fob after having it in my possession for 3 months...lol. Weird part during programming was that it remote started the car. Really weird. Now to go get the key portion cut, maybe I’ll have a 2 in 1 key by November hehe.
Here is where I got the Alin1 Flip Key or if the item is too old its just 2 in 1 toyota key fob remote searched on ebay. Should find several options.
I used this youtube video to program the key fob remote itself, any video with the same generation Toyota should work but I just went with this one. Remote programming for 2005/2007 Toyota fj/4runner
Weird thing is that my car started up remotely during the programming process but I couldn't replicate it again. Maybe I'll get a second key fob to test it out. There's also a huge thread on the 2 in 1 key fob here 2 In 1 Key Fob 4Th Gen
Also I got in my front coilovers the other day. Don’t mind my dog.
And picked up some slightly used rear shocks. It was unexpected that I even bought the front coilovers this early so I had to cobble together something for the rear end.
Found them locally on CL with roughly 8k miles on them. Didn’t have to spend too much and I’ll pay the favor forward to the next person when I progress to a long travel setup.
Here is where I got the Alin1 Flip Key or if the item is too old its just 2 in 1 toyota key fob remote searched on ebay. Should find several options.
I used this youtube video to program the key fob remote itself, any video with the same generation Toyota should work but I just went with this one. Remote programming for 2005/2007 Toyota fj/4runner
Weird thing is that my car started up remotely during the programming process but I couldn't replicate it again. Maybe I'll get a second key fob to test it out. There's also a huge thread on the 2 in 1 key fob here 2 In 1 Key Fob 4Th Gen
Also I got in my front coilovers the other day. Don’t mind my dog.
And picked up some slightly used rear shocks. It was unexpected that I even bought the front coilovers this early so I had to cobble together something for the rear end.
Found them locally on CL with roughly 8k miles on them. Didn’t have to spend too much and I’ll pay the favor forward to the next person when I progress to a long travel setup.
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Nice car selection (and thread so far)....I actually have a fleet that's close - 06' Limited V6, 02' IS300 MT, 16' Civic Touring (wife's).
One day I'll have some rims that look close too lol. I want the 18x9" FN BFD's in a bronze to go with the blue .
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It's actually just a 2 in 1 key fob I bought off eBay.
ALin1 Flip Key
You pretty much have the same cars haha. The only ones I have that are different would be the FD and the older 4Runner.
07/25/18 - key cut and new hatch button
Just came back from comic-con so I lost a whole week of potential install time for my suspension but I did get around to doing a few small things. I finally got the key cut for my 2 in 1 eBay keyfob. Finally have two keys and it's nice having keyless especially when you take the lady out and have to open the passenger door without having to race to the driver door first to unlock the car.
I used this video for the programming of the chip transponder. How to program a transponder key in a 2003-2006 Toyota 4runner Says 2003-2006 but I'm sure it works up til at least 2009.
This next one would be the first time I installed a mod / fix when it first arrives. Usually they just sit around for weeks to months before I can do anything. My fingers are all black from the rubber sticking to them but it was well worth the effort. I didn't bother using the angled screw driver that came with the kit. I just removed the entire trim assembly, which was only 6 nuts. Having leverage and space made it so much easier. I followed this how to thread right here: How to: Replace Rear Hatch Opening Switch
This is the kit I went with for the fix but there are plenty of options on Amazon and eBay besides this one and its much less than buying a whole new button from the dealer (~$65). New IMPROVED GRIP Replacement Repair KIT
Next update will be much more exciting hopefully or it might just be maintenance. Who knows what I'll get to first.
Just came back from comic-con so I lost a whole week of potential install time for my suspension but I did get around to doing a few small things. I finally got the key cut for my 2 in 1 eBay keyfob. Finally have two keys and it's nice having keyless especially when you take the lady out and have to open the passenger door without having to race to the driver door first to unlock the car.
I used this video for the programming of the chip transponder. How to program a transponder key in a 2003-2006 Toyota 4runner Says 2003-2006 but I'm sure it works up til at least 2009.
This next one would be the first time I installed a mod / fix when it first arrives. Usually they just sit around for weeks to months before I can do anything. My fingers are all black from the rubber sticking to them but it was well worth the effort. I didn't bother using the angled screw driver that came with the kit. I just removed the entire trim assembly, which was only 6 nuts. Having leverage and space made it so much easier. I followed this how to thread right here: How to: Replace Rear Hatch Opening Switch
This is the kit I went with for the fix but there are plenty of options on Amazon and eBay besides this one and its much less than buying a whole new button from the dealer (~$65). New IMPROVED GRIP Replacement Repair KIT
Next update will be much more exciting hopefully or it might just be maintenance. Who knows what I'll get to first.
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I took some time out this morning to remove the Volant CAI I bought from the truck of my IS300, where it sat since I bought it from a forum member back in May. Excuse the dirty engine bay hehe.
Looks like I should have put in the new replacement stock filter I had in the garage which I won't be using anymore now.
Looks like a wasp made a nest at some point. Must have been that time I had the car sitting in the driveway for 6 weeks before I was able to register it.
How will anyone know its a VVT-i iForce V8 without this cover?? Worth the extra torque alone...lol Okay I'll see myself out now.
I'll need to come back and do a proper cleaning of the throttle body later on.
The flow of air definitely looks way better with the new intake tube.
The only vacuum line I really needed to replace, which came with the new intake.
Thanks to the Rutech SAIP unit, I didn't have to extend or splice any wires. I just had to remember to install the MAP facing the opposite direction.
Looks like the previous owner also lost the screws to the cover so I'll have to hunt down some new screws and also modify the box later on to thoroughly seal it from the engine bay.
Here’s a short clip I did right after the install.
Volant Intake at High and Low Speed
I like the look though and the air induction noise also sounds great. I should have taken more side by side pictures but I'm not used to photo documenting everything yet.
Looks like I should have put in the new replacement stock filter I had in the garage which I won't be using anymore now.
Looks like a wasp made a nest at some point. Must have been that time I had the car sitting in the driveway for 6 weeks before I was able to register it.
How will anyone know its a VVT-i iForce V8 without this cover?? Worth the extra torque alone...lol Okay I'll see myself out now.
I'll need to come back and do a proper cleaning of the throttle body later on.
The flow of air definitely looks way better with the new intake tube.
The only vacuum line I really needed to replace, which came with the new intake.
Thanks to the Rutech SAIP unit, I didn't have to extend or splice any wires. I just had to remember to install the MAP facing the opposite direction.
Looks like the previous owner also lost the screws to the cover so I'll have to hunt down some new screws and also modify the box later on to thoroughly seal it from the engine bay.
Here’s a short clip I did right after the install.
Volant Intake at High and Low Speed
I like the look though and the air induction noise also sounds great. I should have taken more side by side pictures but I'm not used to photo documenting everything yet.
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I forgot I had these laying around. They came with a JDM bull bar I bought from another forum member. Not sure if they even work anymore, but maybe if I can separate the chrome Toyota grill, I can use it with a newer light setup from KC or another round LED auxiliary lamp. I measured the diameter to be about 7.5” so it’ll be a pretty large light to find.
These also came in yesterday. Bought them from the Texas 4Runner group on Facebook. They’re for a 5th gen but I figure I could try fitting them to the 4th gen. The plug is the same type as the bulb that’s used so I just have to get the bracket to fit or fab something up. If not, I know enough friends with 5th gens that I can just give it to them.
They’re slightly smaller than the 4th gen stock fog lamps. Oriented in the same angle though so once installed they’ll be aimed in the right direction.
My little helper this morning. His specialty is chewing up essential wires like my sound cables :lol:
Maybe next update will be more exciting haha. I'll try to keep my promise this time.
These also came in yesterday. Bought them from the Texas 4Runner group on Facebook. They’re for a 5th gen but I figure I could try fitting them to the 4th gen. The plug is the same type as the bulb that’s used so I just have to get the bracket to fit or fab something up. If not, I know enough friends with 5th gens that I can just give it to them.
They’re slightly smaller than the 4th gen stock fog lamps. Oriented in the same angle though so once installed they’ll be aimed in the right direction.
My little helper this morning. His specialty is chewing up essential wires like my sound cables :lol:
Maybe next update will be more exciting haha. I'll try to keep my promise this time.
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They’re 265 65 18 and they do rub at full turn. Funny thing is they’re barely 32” which is maybe an inch larger than the stock tires that were on there before. Shows how low the truck really is and I took a hit on MPGs too oddly enough.
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taxzz
New member
Thanks for the info. I may do the lift before and go from there then.
08/01/18 - Install Day Prelim
Cosmetic stuff before I update the build itself.
I picked up the Brandmotion infinity mirror. Purely cosmetic but it help updates the interior. This comes on newer BRZs / GT86s and is one of the mods in that community. Also comes on the B9 Audi A4s, looks really sharp in their interiors and I figure this is what Toyota should have done to their newer trucks.
Now for the main update. I was pretty stoked for the install this past Wednesday but man didn’t expect it to be 10 hours long.
Even with power tools it still took time to get all that off.
Harbor freight must have updated their jackstand color because mine don’t match my friends new ones.
There’s no going back now.
The old setup wasn’t leaking yet but was pretty rusty in the back. Front was still okay. Ride was still plush just not as controlled as my 3rd gen was.
The rear shocks weren't cooperating so we ended up crushing and then twisting until the bolt broke on the rear shocks. The top nuts were fused to the shock bolt.
I also decided to replace most of the bolts. Lower cam bolts will be changed when I do the lower control arm. I accidentally bought uca bolts and then realized I wouldn’t need them because the corrosion did not reach that high.
And in the garbage the XREAS go. As far as casualties go just a few cuts and broken / bent wrenches. Gotta love that chinesium forged steel.
Bent trying to move the camber bolt haha. More in the next post.
Cosmetic stuff before I update the build itself.
I picked up the Brandmotion infinity mirror. Purely cosmetic but it help updates the interior. This comes on newer BRZs / GT86s and is one of the mods in that community. Also comes on the B9 Audi A4s, looks really sharp in their interiors and I figure this is what Toyota should have done to their newer trucks.
Now for the main update. I was pretty stoked for the install this past Wednesday but man didn’t expect it to be 10 hours long.
Even with power tools it still took time to get all that off.
Harbor freight must have updated their jackstand color because mine don’t match my friends new ones.
There’s no going back now.
The old setup wasn’t leaking yet but was pretty rusty in the back. Front was still okay. Ride was still plush just not as controlled as my 3rd gen was.
The rear shocks weren't cooperating so we ended up crushing and then twisting until the bolt broke on the rear shocks. The top nuts were fused to the shock bolt.
I also decided to replace most of the bolts. Lower cam bolts will be changed when I do the lower control arm. I accidentally bought uca bolts and then realized I wouldn’t need them because the corrosion did not reach that high.
And in the garbage the XREAS go. As far as casualties go just a few cuts and broken / bent wrenches. Gotta love that chinesium forged steel.
Bent trying to move the camber bolt haha. More in the next post.
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08/01/18 - Lift Install
The goodies: Fox 2.5 front extended travel coilovers, Dobinson 677V rear coils, and Toytec Boss 2.0 (temporary setup from craigslist). I won't be hitting the trails super hard until I get new front LCAs and rear LT setup. Going to try to keep it light duty for now.
The usual comparison for the front.
The rear springs were the biggest difference I've ever seen. I don't remember my 3rd gen being that drastic.
I should have taped up the coils because they did get scratched up pretty good during the install. I'll have to do some mild touch up later next week but you can't really see them since the wheel blocks them but I do want to protect the springs from the elements, even if its just Texas elements.
Maybe I didn't do enough research but I didn't know the Fox coilovers came with front relocation adapters. Glad I didn't shell out for any, they were a nice milled aluminum block.
I'll have to tackle some of those rust spots and maybe get a new reman spindle just to match the new suspension components plus the brake upgrade that'll be coming next month.
Sway bar relocation bracket. This reuses the factory bolts plus another set, initially I was wondering why there were 4 extra bolts and washers. The instructions were pretty vague. There are also skid plate spacers included, which I'll install after I buy some gasket maker to hold the spacers in place.
The Toytec Boss shocks will do for now. They had 8k on them when I bought them. I needed them as a stop gap since all these mods came sooner than expected, I wasn't able to shell out for the Fox rears like I initially wanted.
So far the ride is pretty controlled. It's not as plush as the XREAS was, but it still soaks up bumps pretty well. I love that raked look. I do need to dial more height to the front, but that'll have to wait until I can install my new UCAs. They just came in last night so I'll be able to install in two weeks.
The goodies: Fox 2.5 front extended travel coilovers, Dobinson 677V rear coils, and Toytec Boss 2.0 (temporary setup from craigslist). I won't be hitting the trails super hard until I get new front LCAs and rear LT setup. Going to try to keep it light duty for now.
The usual comparison for the front.
The rear springs were the biggest difference I've ever seen. I don't remember my 3rd gen being that drastic.
I should have taped up the coils because they did get scratched up pretty good during the install. I'll have to do some mild touch up later next week but you can't really see them since the wheel blocks them but I do want to protect the springs from the elements, even if its just Texas elements.
Maybe I didn't do enough research but I didn't know the Fox coilovers came with front relocation adapters. Glad I didn't shell out for any, they were a nice milled aluminum block.
I'll have to tackle some of those rust spots and maybe get a new reman spindle just to match the new suspension components plus the brake upgrade that'll be coming next month.
Sway bar relocation bracket. This reuses the factory bolts plus another set, initially I was wondering why there were 4 extra bolts and washers. The instructions were pretty vague. There are also skid plate spacers included, which I'll install after I buy some gasket maker to hold the spacers in place.
The Toytec Boss shocks will do for now. They had 8k on them when I bought them. I needed them as a stop gap since all these mods came sooner than expected, I wasn't able to shell out for the Fox rears like I initially wanted.
So far the ride is pretty controlled. It's not as plush as the XREAS was, but it still soaks up bumps pretty well. I love that raked look. I do need to dial more height to the front, but that'll have to wait until I can install my new UCAs. They just came in last night so I'll be able to install in two weeks.
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08/02/18 - Alignment & Toytec Diff Drop
Got rig aligned the day after install. Hopefully replacing the swaybar endlinks will help with that driverside lean. It's about 3/4" difference.
That camber will be dialed out once I get the aftermarket UCAs in. They're at my friends house so I guess I'll have to wait til next week to install them.
In the mean time, I decided to go ahead and install the diff drop kit I ordered from Toytec back when I bought the truck. Funny enough I didn't even realize I had the ss lines ordered too, so I guess I have an extra set from wheelers. :lol:
Front diff has seen better days. I hope the fill and drain bolts come off whenever I decide to do fluid change.
I actually did not need the jack. The diff didn't even want to drop after I released the bolts. I'm still trying to figure out why.
The new hardware looks great though. I ended up losing one of those washers. That was also perplexing that it shot up and didn't fall anywhere below.
Looks nice installed, after an hour of messing around with it, but ultimately later on I read that the diff drop was more useful for the 3rd gen vs the 4th gen.
Got rig aligned the day after install. Hopefully replacing the swaybar endlinks will help with that driverside lean. It's about 3/4" difference.
That camber will be dialed out once I get the aftermarket UCAs in. They're at my friends house so I guess I'll have to wait til next week to install them.
In the mean time, I decided to go ahead and install the diff drop kit I ordered from Toytec back when I bought the truck. Funny enough I didn't even realize I had the ss lines ordered too, so I guess I have an extra set from wheelers. :lol:
Front diff has seen better days. I hope the fill and drain bolts come off whenever I decide to do fluid change.
I actually did not need the jack. The diff didn't even want to drop after I released the bolts. I'm still trying to figure out why.
The new hardware looks great though. I ended up losing one of those washers. That was also perplexing that it shot up and didn't fall anywhere below.
Looks nice installed, after an hour of messing around with it, but ultimately later on I read that the diff drop was more useful for the 3rd gen vs the 4th gen.
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More stuff got shipped in after the 15% off monthly eBay coupon. Got some new tools.
Also got in on a harbor freight sale for impact sockets and finally a 3 ton jack that can service both my civic / rx7 and the 4runner. Been getting by with this 1.5 ton jack this whole time.
All this to do a 5th gen rear brake retrofit later this week.
I also found this while rumaging through my boxes looking for some ss brake lines.
Fun times will be had this week. Hours and hours of fun...
Also got in on a harbor freight sale for impact sockets and finally a 3 ton jack that can service both my civic / rx7 and the 4runner. Been getting by with this 1.5 ton jack this whole time.
All this to do a 5th gen rear brake retrofit later this week.
I also found this while rumaging through my boxes looking for some ss brake lines.
Fun times will be had this week. Hours and hours of fun...
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Talk about cutting it close. I should have looked over the brakes before getting the timing belt done. Turns out the belts were done prior to me getting the truck at an unknown mileage and with no records. I need to get a sticker from eBay so I can mark it on the engine but it's already in my log book.
Fought one frozen piston for 30 mins with a vice grip to get it to go back.
At least she’ll be drivable til stoptech gets me my calipers. Pulled them off my 3rd gen, just need to wait for new brackets and rebuild before installing them.
ETA on the calipers will be about 3-4 weeks. I hate waiting and not being able to drive the 4Runner, but I guess I have plenty of other options in the meantime.
Fought one frozen piston for 30 mins with a vice grip to get it to go back.
At least she’ll be drivable til stoptech gets me my calipers. Pulled them off my 3rd gen, just need to wait for new brackets and rebuild before installing them.
ETA on the calipers will be about 3-4 weeks. I hate waiting and not being able to drive the 4Runner, but I guess I have plenty of other options in the meantime.
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8/18/18 - Maintenance Day
Did some maintenance on the 4Runner and IS300. I'm going to do a few short interval oil changes to dissolve any potential deposits which I doubt the 2UZ has any. Probably every 1000 miles til I reach 150k mark. The Fumoto valve makes it pretty painless and quick.
Surprisingly the IS300 has the harder oil filter to reach. Even more so than the 5VZ in my old 3rd gen.
Can't even fit a tool in there...
Did some maintenance on the 4Runner and IS300. I'm going to do a few short interval oil changes to dissolve any potential deposits which I doubt the 2UZ has any. Probably every 1000 miles til I reach 150k mark. The Fumoto valve makes it pretty painless and quick.
Surprisingly the IS300 has the harder oil filter to reach. Even more so than the 5VZ in my old 3rd gen.
Can't even fit a tool in there...
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8/24/18 - UCA and Rear Tyre Solution
Finally stopped by my friend's place to pick up and unbox the True Travel UCAs. I originally was thinking Total Chaos or Camburg UCAs but preferred the boxed design overall. Initially, I found only the Dirt King UCAs and then came across maybe 2 threads talking about the True Travel UCAs. They look pretty much identical and the True Travel came with the heim joints for the same price as the Dirt King with poly bushings for the same price. I wasn't a super big fan of the heim joints but I can probably replace the heim joints with johnny joints in the future when they need maintenance.
I also was able to pick up a Wilco Offset Tiregate off craigslist this morning for half off. I was reading a thread on rear swing outs and tire carriers, so I randomly did a search on craigslist for kicks. Lucked out because the ad has been up since 8/21 and I only contacted the guy yesterday. Surprised no one wanted it for that price.
I was able to also check out the 4 Wheel Parts shop that I had been driving past for 18 years. Never had a reason to stop by, I guess the guy is a manager there. Just need to refinish my wheel and get the tire mounted. Definitely have more peace of mind for road trips with a proper spare tire. Can't wait til I get back from my Labor Day weekend trip to get some more mods out of the way.
Finally stopped by my friend's place to pick up and unbox the True Travel UCAs. I originally was thinking Total Chaos or Camburg UCAs but preferred the boxed design overall. Initially, I found only the Dirt King UCAs and then came across maybe 2 threads talking about the True Travel UCAs. They look pretty much identical and the True Travel came with the heim joints for the same price as the Dirt King with poly bushings for the same price. I wasn't a super big fan of the heim joints but I can probably replace the heim joints with johnny joints in the future when they need maintenance.
I also was able to pick up a Wilco Offset Tiregate off craigslist this morning for half off. I was reading a thread on rear swing outs and tire carriers, so I randomly did a search on craigslist for kicks. Lucked out because the ad has been up since 8/21 and I only contacted the guy yesterday. Surprised no one wanted it for that price.
I was able to also check out the 4 Wheel Parts shop that I had been driving past for 18 years. Never had a reason to stop by, I guess the guy is a manager there. Just need to refinish my wheel and get the tire mounted. Definitely have more peace of mind for road trips with a proper spare tire. Can't wait til I get back from my Labor Day weekend trip to get some more mods out of the way.
8/29/18 (Mirror) 9/3/18 (Brake Pedal)
Some late updates to my build. Just a few purely cosmetic mods.
First one I did last Thursday replacing my rearview mirror with the edgeless version from the BRZ / GT86. It's not the authetic JDM one, which costs like $120, but it is pretty close and I mean like I said it doesn't add any functionality. I'll make another post "detailing" the removal and installation but it is pretty straight forward. Took me less than 5 minutes.
Initially I followed the directions in this thread: Auto Dimming Mirror Install w/picturesl
The company that makes the mirror is Brandmotion and I bought it here: Brandmotion 9002-9701 Infinity Manual Dimming Mirror. This is the thread where I originally found the mirror: FINDING: JDM Frameless Mirror sourced from US - $80!! Back when I was shopping for a BRZ...sort of still want one but you can only have so many cars :lol:
Picked up my panhard bracket from the mailbox. Didn’t realize it’s been in there for a week. I should really pay attention to my tracking alerts.
This past Monday, I took off the stock brake pedal cover to see if I could swap in the is300 sport brake pedal cover. It took some doing but after 5 minutes I was able to get the cover onto the brake pedal. Looks great.
Top one is the new cover. I'll get some updated pictures with the set installed whenever I get around to fitting on the gas pedal. Might have to shop around for a better piece. The stock IS300 aluminum gas pedal is a rocker assembly and ours doesn't come apart.
I also finally cleaned enough of the garage to get two cars back into it.
Really I plan on having the CTR and IS300 in there but for now I'll keep the older ones inside for now.
Some late updates to my build. Just a few purely cosmetic mods.
First one I did last Thursday replacing my rearview mirror with the edgeless version from the BRZ / GT86. It's not the authetic JDM one, which costs like $120, but it is pretty close and I mean like I said it doesn't add any functionality. I'll make another post "detailing" the removal and installation but it is pretty straight forward. Took me less than 5 minutes.
Initially I followed the directions in this thread: Auto Dimming Mirror Install w/picturesl
The company that makes the mirror is Brandmotion and I bought it here: Brandmotion 9002-9701 Infinity Manual Dimming Mirror. This is the thread where I originally found the mirror: FINDING: JDM Frameless Mirror sourced from US - $80!! Back when I was shopping for a BRZ...sort of still want one but you can only have so many cars :lol:
Picked up my panhard bracket from the mailbox. Didn’t realize it’s been in there for a week. I should really pay attention to my tracking alerts.
This past Monday, I took off the stock brake pedal cover to see if I could swap in the is300 sport brake pedal cover. It took some doing but after 5 minutes I was able to get the cover onto the brake pedal. Looks great.
Top one is the new cover. I'll get some updated pictures with the set installed whenever I get around to fitting on the gas pedal. Might have to shop around for a better piece. The stock IS300 aluminum gas pedal is a rocker assembly and ours doesn't come apart.
I also finally cleaned enough of the garage to get two cars back into it.
Really I plan on having the CTR and IS300 in there but for now I'll keep the older ones inside for now.
