Tow in CO? Need help settling on trailer GVWR!

I've towed from Denver to Omaha and back as well as in the mountains, gotta say I'm real glad I have a V8 4th gen, handles towing really comfortably.
I have trouble believing it is all that great. 30 more tq... and a little less hp. Granted the tq curve is better, but a tow geared 1grfe dual VVTI should be on par.

Bottom line.. there is no replacement for displacement except forced induction and gearing. It basically comes down to 4.7 vs 4.0, factor in the dual VVTI on the 1grfe and that .7 is more like .3. Still, 4.7 v8 better, but not really enough to tow 5k up in the mountains comfortably. The throttle response of the 4.7 is much more pleasing... but when it comes down to doing work... really should be no majorl difference.

Disclaimer...I have no first hand towing experience with the 4.7. But I have towed quite a bit in many different vehicles. And squeezed power out of many different engines. Toyota 120 not my top choice by any stretch for towing. Mountain passes... Not thanks!
 
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I really wish there were a gearing option around 4.10. For stockish tire size it would be ideal for many of us. I've heard the justification that it's not enough difference to matter, but IMO it would make a world of difference for highway cruising and light towing. Unfortunately the only existing bolt in options I'm aware of would be a re-geared 07-09 FJ Cruiser with the smaller 8" diff, or a Diamond Axle 9.5" bolt in swap. Neither are really worth the effort or cost for most of us.
 
I really wish there were a gearing option around 4.10. For stockish tire size it would be ideal for many of us. I've heard the justification that it's not enough difference to matter, but IMO it would make a world of difference for highway cruising and light towing. Unfortunately the only existing bolt in options I'm aware of would be a re-geared 07-09 FJ Cruiser with the smaller 8" diff, or a Diamond Axle 9.5" bolt in swap. Neither are really worth the effort or cost for most of us.

The 2007 - 2009 FJ and 5th 4runner should share the same ring and pinion. The 8.2" for the 5th is not an actual measurement. It's just a nomenclature around the improved strength with more bearing support.... I'm only 90% sure on this.. but almost positive they measure the same. There could be a carrier difference/break though...

Still would be hard to find even if it would fit. I think 2010 5th gens actually came with a 4cyl 4.10 manual option. Again, impossible to find.
 
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I'm about to learn a lot this weekend. I'll be towing a trailer for a scout troop up to Conifer from Denver. I estimate the trailer is between 2500-3K. It has electric brakes.

I have not pulled a trailer with the 4R before. I expect to pull this thing 2-4 times per year, always up into the mountains. First time will be this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

As many have already stated, going down is the tricky part. But for me, the hardest part is going to be driving slower than the rest of traffic. I grew up in CO and hated it when I got stuck behind a trailer on mountain roads. :mad: Now I'm going to be the one horking everyone off.

I'm rolling on stock size K02 load range C tires. I've added Airlift 1000 to the rear springs. And I installed a Tekonsha P3 proportional brake controller. I also will use my Carista adapter and OBD Fusion app to monitor tran and t-case temps. As the scouts like to say, "Be Prepared."
 
I'm about to learn a lot this weekend. I'll be towing a trailer for a scout troop up to Conifer from Denver. I estimate the trailer is between 2500-3K. It has electric brakes.

I have not pulled a trailer with the 4R before. I expect to pull this thing 2-4 times per year, always up into the mountains. First time will be this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

As many have already stated, going down is the tricky part. But for me, the hardest part is going to be driving slower than the rest of traffic. I grew up in CO and hated it when I got stuck behind a trailer on mountain roads. :mad: Now I'm going to be the one horking everyone off.

I'm rolling on stock size K02 load range C tires. I've added Airlift 1000 to the rear springs. And I installed a Tekonsha P3 proportional brake controller. I also will use my Carista adapter and OBD Fusion app to monitor tran and t-case temps. As the scouts like to say, "Be Prepared."

The 4Runner will pull that all day long with no mods and will pull it at regular speed. It's when you get up in the 4-5K range that it struggles. Keep your tongue weight at 250 lbs or so and you will be good to go. If you have a problem figuring it out just get a bathroom scale and a short block of wood that will approximate the height when it is on the ball. Proper tongue weight is crucial to keep the tail from wagging the dog.
 
The 2007 - 2009 FJ and 5th 4runner should share the same ring and pinion. The 8.2" for the 5th is not an actual measurement. It's just a nomenclature around the improved strength with more bearing support.... I'm only 90% sure on this.. but almost positive they measure the same. There could be a carrier difference/break though...

Still would be hard to find even if it would fit. I think 2010 5th gens actually came with a 4cyl 4.10 manual option. Again, impossible to find.

The 8.2 is a different animal unfortunately. At least as I understand it it uses a Different ring size that actually is a bit larger with 12 bolts rather than 10 on the 8" v6 that was used in the 120 platform vehicles. From my web searching it's fairly common for the FJ Cruisers to swap rear axles with the newer 8.2 rear ends for stronger rear diffs. How much stronger I have no idea.
 
Really I would like the mass to be a bit more as well, especially in cross winds.

I can add that mass, but it won't help me n the passes. ;)

With that said, you can do things that I have not done that will help:
1. Airbags
2. WDH
3. Brake Controller
4. Maybe additional cooling, depending on where you are going to pull most often
5. Figure out how to be happy at 55 or 60 mph when everyone else is going 75-80 mph.

I'll probably end up doing most of those things, and I'll be happy if I can hit your #5 above without ever being in 2nd gear. I just really don't want to be at 40 mph when others are flying by flipping me off.

have you already found the dealership where you plan on buying a trailer? talk to them about renting or just a test tow, maybe try to negotiate if you buy having the cost applied to the purchase price? i've never bought a trailer so i have no idea if they do test tows or rentals.

another idea would just be renting a cargo trailer and loading it to a comparable load and testing out the towing. It won't be a perfect comparison because the aerodynamics will be different, but it could be a cheap sanity check.

I have not; the manufacturer/model will have to be decided first, then figure out where to go to get it.

Cargo trailer is a good idea, I can find one to borrow and load it up even though the aerodynamics will be different. Thanks for the suggestion!

I would look very closely at wind resistance. In my experience the 4runner is great lower speeds and struggles at highway speed due to wind resistance primarily...

Good luck!

No doubt, the 4Runner is an absolute brick. That's the one thing I really like about the Lance 1475, its teardrop shape seems more aero and more suited to the 4Runner's profile compared to some of them. It's probably 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, but it looks more aero. lol

...If you go heavy expect to climb and descend grades at far below the posted speed limit.

Rent a cargo trailer, load it up to the weight you expect then try it. Be realistic could you deal with that driving experience all day on a vacation?

Pretty sure I'll have no interest going fast with a 3500-lb box attached to my truck. Our towing really will be limited initially, perhaps 1-2 weekends/month over the summer and fall, with a longer summer trip thrown in.
 
I'm about to learn a lot this weekend. I'll be towing a trailer for a scout troop up to Conifer from Denver. I estimate the trailer is between 2500-3K. It has electric brakes.

I have not pulled a trailer with the 4R before. I expect to pull this thing 2-4 times per year, always up into the mountains. First time will be this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

As many have already stated, going down is the tricky part. But for me, the hardest part is going to be driving slower than the rest of traffic. I grew up in CO and hated it when I got stuck behind a trailer on mountain roads. :mad: Now I'm going to be the one horking everyone off.

I'm rolling on stock size K02 load range C tires. I've added Airlift 1000 to the rear springs. And I installed a Tekonsha P3 proportional brake controller. I also will use my Carista adapter and OBD Fusion app to monitor tran and t-case temps. As the scouts like to say, "Be Prepared."

I'll be very curious to hear what you think. I'll give you $20 if you load it up to 3500# and tell me how it does. ;)
 
I'm almost your Huckleberry. :lookout:

I live in Conifer, well, above it really. I'm at 9680' of elevation. (Conifer MTN)

2016 4r TRDP.

12x6 enclosed Haul Mark trailer, no trailer brakes @ 1200 lbs.
2 Up ATV with plow @ 1000 lbs roughly
Other stuff, straps, fuel, tools etc @ 200 lbs

So lets call it 2500 lbs for easy math.

Uphill:

From the flat-lander area (Denver) going south on 285 with the load above, mostly third gear at 55. Then second gear around Windy Point with a bounce to third here and there. Passing, ahhhh No. LOL MPG=Awful

From Conifer (8200') to my house (9680), it's a first and second gear proposition with a pin-balling effect back to 3rd....(5 miles with a 30 PSL with 70 switchback turns) MPG= Gawd awful

The HP elevation penalty is severe at 9K.... Approx a 73 hp loss for the 4R near my home, so that leaves me about 200 at the crank....

Down Hill:

Actually not too bad, just keep it at 60 and with trailer brakes you should be GTG. However, if you're one of those guys that always does the PSL, even down hill with a trailer, you should reconsider that philosophy in the mountains out west.


I think you'll be fine as long as you keep your expectations realistic for the setup you proposed and everything weighs in at your expectations.

The wife and I were considering a small Airstream and to tow it with the 4R. If we didn't live were we live, i.e. elevation, we would probably do it. But we are passing on the idea unless if we get a better tow vehicle for more severe elevation that we live and would vacation at. When you're in the flats, it will tow pretty well and stop respectably.

Cheers!
 
Floyd Hill with a 2012 Tacoma 4.0 roughly the same trailer weight you're looking at I was in 2nd gear at about 5200RPM to hold 52mph, but actually that's not bad for that short stretch. Trailer was a Kodiak 166E.

5200rpm in 2nd was only on short stretches on 7% grades like Floyd Hill, Ike, Vail, Utah. 3rd gear was the norm.

You can pass 18-wheelers climbing with a 4.0, that's for sure. Fuel up with Premium for that bit of extra boost, and don't worry about people in a passenger vehicle having to wait while you pass a semi. Too bad for them, as long as you're passing they'll just have to wait.

Passing brings up tow mirrors. Tow mirrors, the only one I found that was worth a damn is this https://www.amazon.com/Fit-System-3891-Universal-Trailer/dp/B001AJH1HK

Trans cooler, add it.
 
I'm almost your Huckleberry. :lookout:

I live in Conifer, well, above it really. I'm at 9680' of elevation. (Conifer MTN)

2016 4r TRDP.

12x6 enclosed Haul Mark trailer, no trailer brakes @ 1200 lbs.
2 Up ATV with plow @ 1000 lbs roughly
Other stuff, straps, fuel, tools etc @ 200 lbs

So lets call it 2500 lbs for easy math.

Uphill:

From the flat-lander area (Denver) going south on 285 with the load above, mostly third gear at 55. Then second gear around Windy Point with a bounce to third here and there. Passing, ahhhh No. LOL MPG=Awful

From Conifer (8200') to my house (9680), it's a first and second gear proposition with a pin-balling effect back to 3rd....(5 miles with a 30 PSL with 70 switchback turns) MPG= Gawd awful

The HP elevation penalty is severe at 9K.... Approx a 73 hp loss for the 4R near my home, so that leaves me about 200 at the crank....

Down Hill:

Actually not too bad, just keep it at 60 and with trailer brakes you should be GTG. However, if you're one of those guys that always does the PSL, even down hill with a trailer, you should reconsider that philosophy in the mountains out west.


I think you'll be fine as long as you keep your expectations realistic for the setup you proposed and everything weighs in at your expectations.

The wife and I were considering a small Airstream and to tow it with the 4R. If we didn't live were we live, i.e. elevation, we would probably do it. But we are passing on the idea unless if we get a better tow vehicle for more severe elevation that we live and would vacation at. When you're in the flats, it will tow pretty well and stop respectably.

Cheers!

Can't imagine pulling an Airstream with a 4Runner, those things are cool, but heavy!

Thanks for the details, helps a lot to envision what I'm in for around the Front Range. Doesn't make me look forward to it... lol
 
When towing that amount of weight, its not all about acceleration and towing power in the hills. I pulled a loaded popup with a V8 4Runner and a larger trailer with a Tundra. You need to be safe in the Wyoming winds and be able to stop during a normal situation. If there is an accident if they find that you are over the towing capacity limits, insurance will turn you down. It will get expensive. Err on the side of caution! There are a lot of camping forums that discuss towing safely.
 
Floyd Hill with a 2012 Tacoma 4.0 roughly the same trailer weight you're looking at I was in 2nd gear at about 5200RPM to hold 52mph, but actually that's not bad for that short stretch. Trailer was a Kodiak 166E.

5200rpm in 2nd was only on short stretches on 7% grades like Floyd Hill, Ike, Vail, Utah. 3rd gear was the norm.

You can pass 18-wheelers climbing with a 4.0, that's for sure. Fuel up with Premium for that bit of extra boost, and don't worry about people in a passenger vehicle having to wait while you pass a semi. Too bad for them, as long as you're passing they'll just have to wait.

Passing brings up tow mirrors. Tow mirrors, the only one I found that was worth a damn is this https://www.amazon.com/Fit-System-3891-Universal-Trailer/dp/B001AJH1HK

Trans cooler, add it.

Guess I can always drive CC Canyon to avoid Floyd. The Sequoia will do 80 up FH fully loaded. I'll check out the tow mirror, thanks for the heads up!
 
If you can keep the weight in check (I don't believe you will packing for four people) you might be fine.

This is a sensitive subject honestly and only YOU can determine what feels right or comfortable for you. One guy says he tows 5k at 70 mph "all day long" and is fine...another hates towing 1500 pound pop up.

Again....some wouldn't touch my personal setup without a dually or even 4500-5500 series truck. I did it want to sell my truck or drive a dually.

It took airbags, lower stableloads and finally a step up to 19.5's for added capacity and stability to handle this. I'm grossing a bit over 20k with this setup.

2pqq7hv.jpg


Point is....you have to feel comfortable. My truck is a Megacab and the ratings in those years were flat pathetic for weight ratings. Again some will cry foul but it's solid and with my exhaust brake, stops fine. It's all in stopping!

I can blow right up any hill at 70 mph with this I've got all the power I can do...but stopping....is key.
 
Sometimes I like to flat tow 2 or 3 sedans behind me. I like to pretend I'm an engineer (like the train driver kind). But I usually only do it in my 3rd gen with some tires stacked on the roof. They help with the aerodynamics.
 

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Sometimes I like to flat tow 2 or 3 sedans behind me. I like to pretend I'm an engineer (like the train driver kind). But I usually only do it in my 3rd gen with some tires stacked on the roof. They help with the aerodynamics.

Cool. Now lets see you do that up I-70. Seems plenty safe :bounce:
 
I wouldn't want to tow more than about 3000 lb behind a fifth gen. Small pop-up maybe with nothing in or on the truck except passengers.

For 5000 lbs or more get yourself a 2500 GMC with towing package. My GMC was the cats meow with a 21 foot fifth wheel travel trailer.

Back in the old days I towed a 4000 lb pop-up behind a '77 Pontiac Safari (350V8 Olds engine) with overload springs and auxiliary cooler.

In all cases trailer brakes a must have.
 
Cool. Now lets see you do that up I-70. Seems plenty safe :bounce:

I shot that pic out the window on the interstate in Texas. I love Texas. I end up there a few times a year. Best food in America. If I lived there I'd die of heart disease. And I always see some sort of crazy going on on the roads. Believe it or not the 4runner was actually towing pretty nicely with the two cars behind it. I've towed my FJ40 on a car trailer behind my 3rd gen... once. No thanks. With a supercharger or turbo though - a 3rd gen probably pulls better than a 5th gen.
 
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You, sir, are in the exact same spot I was 5 years ago, albeit with a different tow vehicle. Whilst I cannot (yet) offer any 4Runner specific feedback (I just purchased my 2016 SR5 back in Oct, after camping season), I am coming from a very similar vehicle and locale (COS) otherwise.

My tow vehicle was a 2006 Nissan Xterra with a 4.0L V6 at about 4800# or better, 106” wheelbase, churning 265 hp and 284 ft-lb torque thru a 5-spd auto tranny. Honestly, felt like a lot stronger vehicle than the 4Runner: a lot more torque and better gearing. It towed our trailer like a dream! But I digress... I too can echo many of your same concerns, so thought I’d pass along some feedback from my experience towing in the mountains since 2012. We are in our mid-30s and picked up a Forest River Flagstaff Micro-Lite 19FD under $15k (single axle, 2900# dry sticker, 3800# or so GVWR) for our then family of 3/now family of 4 (our boys are 6 and 2 now) and are convinced we made the perfect choice. ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS!! We bought the trailer for a two week road trip to Mt Rainier (WA state/3k miles roundtrip) our first year and we travel all over the rest of the state each season. We frequent SW CO/Ouray annually, have been to Steamboat Springs a couple times, South Fork, SE UT/Moab, RMNP, Buena Vista, Crested Butte, etc, etc. As you know, plan on climbing some major grades wherever you go. Never once have I thought “boy, wish I had a bigger trailer” headed up or down Monarch, Vail, Wolf Creek, or Loveland (Eisenhower Tunnel) Passes, but repeatedly have thought our V6 SUV was working plenty hard enough and glad to not have anything heavier!!!

I like your spreadsheet/thought process; I had one similar and you have obviously done your homework. :) You are wise to keep the weight to about 3500#... that was my target number as well. For me, it was 3000#-3500# dry weight max, with as much cargo capacity as possible, but at least 500#-800# net carrying capacity. If you’ve got full 30-gallon black/gray tanks you are already eating up 500# there alone! That nixed the KZ offering for us (Escape was new at the time, IIRC, and capacities seemed less).

As to your selection criteria, keep to it! They are good, solid “go/no-go” qualifiers and as you know, it really narrows your choices–something has to–but keep them in front of you lest you get sidetracked and regret it later.

1. Dry bath: Good call. Avoid the potential compromise whilst looking for options in the ultralight segment and stick to your checklist. You won’t regret having it later when you have to live with this thing a month or two each season.
2. Bed: A build a bed/dinette convert-a-bed would get old in a hurry, but curious why you’ve nixed the Murphy bed option? We have one, love it, and would highly recommend. We keep the bed made up full time, move it up out of the way when not in use, and have a sofa to sit and relax on, watch TV, sit and read books, etc. It uses gas struts to assist with lifting, so that is easy enough. Essentially gives us two floorplans in one, or at the very least, simulates a much larger floorplan. Where are you going to lounge in that R-Pod? Just food for thought…
3. Sleeping capacity: Tough to find space for 4 in this segment, especially with the fixed queen bed limitation. Enter slides (adds significant weight), tent fold outs (no interest to us), or bunks on some models. We found the ideal compromise–overhead stowaway bunk and convertible dinette. Not much more to say, you have obviously researched and found the options.
4. Hard-sided: Us, too. We were tempted by the Trail Manor marketing propaganda, but talk about an overpriced compromise product. $30k+ for a glorified pop-up… seriously? Having made many, many stops on long roads trips to just hop in the back to change a diaper/soiled clothes, take a potty break, have lunch, or even overnight at Walmart… good choice.

Also, some additional considerations:
1. Fridge: Go as big as possible! We got an unexpected upgrade to a 2-door, 6 cu ft(?) model and it is great! Would not want much smaller for the extended stays.
2. Gray/Black tanks: Looks like most everything on your list is 30-gal; great, max those out, especially if you plan on doing any dry camping/”boon-docking”. We can make it 2-3 nights max with 30-gal tanks and careful, conservative use.
3. Fresh water: This one is a little easier to overcome since you can easily carry spare 6-gallons jugs, but refilling a small tank will get old.
4. Oven: Some may/some may not. We have one and it sure comes in handy, esp. considering your microwave will be in-operable without a generator or electrical hook-ups.
5. Dry-camping: If you plan on doing any boon-docking, dual batteries and LEDs are a must. We burned up our single stock battery over the first few trips not knowing any better. We learned to conserve power, but even still the heater alone would drain a single battery overnight since rule of thumb is to not drain more than 25%-50% of capacity. We now have dual 6V golf-cart batteries and the difference it is night and day! You still need to be intentional, but the safety margin is much more forgiving. Don’t forget some solar power to keep them charged. I put together a 100-watt set-up with a stand for a few hundred bucks. Boon-docking is a whole other, lengthy discussion of its own. We found a great book on the subject and could find the name if you are interested.

IMPORTANT: A weight distributing hitch with sway control is ESSENTIAL EQUIPMENT to making this combo work, IMO. I would not even consider towing without. My Xterra had a HD suspension (OME HD all around, beefed up leaf packs out back with add-a-leafs plus helper springs) and I still squatted a good bit out back. Forget it with a soft coil spring suspension. I heard great things about Equalizer and never looked elsewhere. Stability is great, really ties the vehicle/trailer together, and any sway is essentially non-existent. Passing semis on two lanes, down hills, whatever, this thing is fantastic! Don’t second guess, just do it. I too saw the conflicting info and internet speculation as to whether or not the 5th gen can use a WDH so I contacted Toyota directly:

33334755523_f7fd8baa48_b.jpg


33988606132_20e54f8968_b.jpg


Also, 2013 4Runner manual eludes to (and thus endorses?) its use:

33334755203_b6544278b8_b.jpg


Other stuff. I’ve got a Prodigy P2 trailer brake controller and would highly recommend. Easy to use and set-up and has a nice manual activation switch… great for a quick check to make sure the trailer brakes are working. I’m adding airbags, too, as my Xterra experience tells me they are going to be essential. I’m on the fence about an extra tranny cooler as I have concerns for it voiding powertrain warranty, not that a roasted tranny is any help to the contrary; think I’ll try it stock for starters and maybe find a means to monitor it. Those ratcheting tow mirrors linked above are the same ones I have and loved them on the X; they are solid, huge viewing area, and very little vibration; I initially picked up my trailer without any… then drove straight to the nearest parts store as I could not see a thing! The rental suggestion is a great thought; check out TrailerWorldDenver.com . This is where we bought our trailer and they have rentals. While not a cheap proposition, it will at least get you in close proximity to one of your choices and what you are in for; just think of it like several nights in a hotel and starts to feel more justifiable. :) They also appear to rent with a WDH option (again, I would not even consider towing without!!). The place is off east Colfax and pretty shady at a drive by, but they are good, honest, old-fashioned folks and we got a great deal and had a pleasant buying experience from the family run operation.

Anyway, there is my synopsis, hope it helps. Would love to offer some 4Runner specific feedback, but you are going to have to wait another few weeks for that. I am adjusting my hitch and taking a local test tow in a few weeks, then our first trip is to 11-Mile (Lake George) for Memorial weekend. Good luck with your decision making! Feel free to give me a shout if you have any other regional, trailer, or dry camping questions.

Steve

PS, a couple shots of our much loved and missed Xterra: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/2665124-post169.html
 

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