Toyota/Mazda to build Prius SUV Hybrid

[Lester Lugnut]

For those not happy about their 4Runners gas mileage.

Just sayin'.....

Toyota Prius SUV | Specs, News, Rumors | Digital Trends

 

[T4R2014]

Another crossover turd because the RAV4 and Highlander were not enough.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

They probably need something to replace the now defunct Rav4 EV (thank god, those things are such garbage...) for people who don't want to drive a bloated Prius V. Rather silly that they are partnering with Mazda on this since they could easily just make a similar Rav4 Hybrid with the 2.5L engine they have now. Sounds like they want something to slot between the Highlander Hybrid and Prius for those that don't want the Prius V.

 

[oljedi11950]

Almost ran over one today & of course A Rather Large Woman behind the wheel txtn of course !!!

 

[cacarbuff]

They probably need something to replace the now defunct Rav4 EV (thank god, those things are such garbage...) for people who don't want to drive a bloated Prius V. Rather silly that they are partnering with Mazda on this since they could easily just make a similar Rav4 Hybrid with the 2.5L engine they have now. Sounds like they want something to slot between the Highlander Hybrid and Prius for those that don't want the Prius V.

Why do you say they're garbage? We love ours! Is there something we don't know?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Why do you say they're garbage? We love ours! Is there something we don't know?

To be honest I never saw the appeal of them among other reasons.

It's $50k for a Base Model Rav4 (really Toyota, you couldn't have at least used a top level trim for $50k?) dressed in EV badges with a relatively subpar Tesla EV system. The vehicle barely gets 100mi (if you're lucky) to the charge and for a nearly $50k sticker price the furnishings are disappointing. Yes there's government subsidies and discounts (I think our biggest purchase order of about 3-4 units went for some sort of crash testing) that bring the price down some and I realize most people who buy these probably will never drive more than 100mi a day; but honestly I can drain the battery in these guys pretty fast just trolling the lot with the A/C running (mostly because I don't want to drive like I own a Prius.) To me even in the Bay Area they're just a very short range vehicle with how our traffic is and I can't imagine living in LA or any other congested place without feeling a bit of range anxiety since when the battery goes dead... that's it, nothing nada zilch, vehicle's not moving; can't jump start one of these! Not to mention the EV infrastructure is in it's infant stages and is very varied (been hearing from some Prius PHV and Rav4 EV customers the relatively ridiculous amount of money some places charge to let them use their EV stations, while others are perfectly free.) This goes into a larger statement about the current place EVs hold in the world (not really bad, they're the inevitable future; but the infrastracture for these vehicles is basically non-existent on a large scale.) In the end, for what you spend you get a very "cheap" feeling product that is a nice concept; but really not something even Toyota wanted to keep.

Now back to that pesky Tesla EV system (for the most part specific to the Rav4 EV and of "older" technology compared to the newer Teslas from what was explained to me), so far we've had about half to two thirds of the EVs we've sold had to have the battery packs (about $30k-ish if I remember right) replaced or the inverter/motor assemblies replaced. These were all under warranty (for now), but we even had 2 Rav4 EVs before they were even sold need new batteries (I haven't seen a DoA Toyota vehicle fail before it's been sold besides these EVs) A few people I know who work for Tesla have also mentioned that particular EV system has a lot of battery pack issues and motor issues from what they remember (enough that Toyota and Tesla had no qualms about discontinuing the Rav4 EV project only a couple years after inception.) Watching the Toyota and Tesla "engineers" basically sit in their own corners trying to decide how they wanted to discharge the EV batteries before shipping and how to diagnose what's wrong (because at this point we called Toyota HQ who sent them out to help us fix the vehicles despite Toyota supposedly training two of our techs in everything Rav4 EV) both laughable and disturbing. Watching the Tesla guys have a circle huddle 3ft away from the Toyota guys and then leaning over to update them on the Tesla group's idea was downright disheartening from a technical/factory support aspect. So later down the road as these vehicle start to develop problems from age and such; I imagine factory support will continue to be just as spotty.

Plain and simple, I like Toyota and I like Tesla. Both companies are good in their own right; but they really made in my eyes a subpar product in an attempt for Toyota to catch some of the "EV craze" just as they did with the pointless Prius PHV (12mi EV range... because I didn't think the Rav4 EV was ridiculous enough as it was and people actually buy those PHV!) But in this particular case, I think they made a dud and Tesla is the one who made out like bandits (hell the Model X is basically all the bad and good they learned from the Rav4 EV project.)

I apologize in advance if any of the above comes across a bit harsh or rude, but you asked about my honest opinion and experience with these vehicles so I assume that you already know I don't sugar coat things.

 

[cacarbuff]

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]

I do appreciate your honest opinion and a bit of insider information. Being a product development engineer myself, it's extremely disheartening to hear that a technology innovator like tesla and a manufacturing powerhouse like toyota couldn't develop a cooperative relationship and a well characterized system. .. :/

Your info is making me rethink buying ours out at the end of the lease. We had originally planned on buying it out at the end making our total paid for the vehicle <$37k including taxes and fees. We figured that was pretty good compared to the > $52k base price.

As far as the range, we typically only get less than 100 mi per charge when we drive it like we stole it. ... the near 300 lbf of torque is pretty fun. ... and even then, we still get infinite mpg because I charge at work. I think ours is one of the only situations it works well for.

I'll keep an eye out for those battery issues you mentioned and maybe start buttering up the wife to replace it with an s or an x when the lease is up

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]

I do appreciate your honest opinion and a bit of insider information. Being a product development engineer myself, it's extremely disheartening to hear that a technology innovator like tesla and a manufacturing powerhouse like toyota couldn't develop a cooperative relationship and a well characterized system. .. :/

Your info is making me rethink buying ours out at the end of the lease. We had originally planned on buying it out at the end making our total paid for the vehicle <$37k including taxes and fees. We figured that was pretty good compared to the > $52k base price.

As far as the range, we typically only get less than 100 mi per charge when we drive it like we stole it. ... the near 300 lbf of torque is pretty fun. ... and even then, we still get infinite mpg because I charge at work. I think ours is one of the only situations it works well for.

I'll keep an eye out for those battery issues you mentioned and maybe start buttering up the wife to replace it with an s or an x when the lease is up

I would not buy any EV vehicle for at least the next decade or so until the technology is far more common place.

Tesla is a good company, but they are on the bleeding edge. They are taking stuff straight from R&D and throwing it in their production vehicles; where as Toyota is going from R&D to long term testing, to running the same platform for a decade and tweaking it slightly (I think my friend told me that Tesla has already updated the Model S batteries about 4 times since they released the 1st one; each one being their newest toy from R&D.) Two different schools of thought almost opposite of each other. Tesla has a small product line-up at the moment and they are even being nice enough to retroactively upgrade previous customer's batteries with the newest updated one they cooked up (I believe in some cases for free.) Their company's structure is more fast paced and future focused, which is great because they are literally on the forefront of the Mass-Market EV industry.

But as such there's a lot that is left to be desired from EVs in general, first of all being that the technology is barely being standardized and tested properly. It's not too bad with an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) because computerized fuel injection has been around almost 30~40 years and it's been well tested and run. EV technology is just barely starting the long haul and many of these vehicles haven't even been on the road long enough to develop good reliability statistics. So I really wouldn't buy an EV for at least a decade, leasing is a much better option if you really want to get in on the ground floor.

Another thing I mentioned was infrastructure, currently there's barely any real infrastructure for EVs. Sure there's charging stations dotted around and Tesla is making a strong effort to get their own systems into the public. But the truth is that only hurts the situation as more EVs are sold, thankfully the proportion of EVs and chargers is small enough that it's not an issue now. Unfortunately the supporting infrastructure needs to start developing now if EVs are ever going to get off the ground in a significantly meaningful way. It's not just about throwing chargers on every corner like Starbucks, its about supplying constant power and maintenance to that equipment. We're talking a bout a 1st world country that can't even keep the lights on 24/7! Our power grid is woefully decrepit and poorly designed in it's current state. We're lucky we can support most of what we have plugged in to it right now and we want to start converting the entire country to energy sucking EVs? All those chargers dotted on every street corner won't mean a damn thing if the ancient, inefficient power lines can't supply enough juice to charge your EV (the truth is we actually do a decent job of power generation, it's transmission over long distances and through out most cities that's the issue.) I have faith Tesla is going to funnel quite a bit of money into various industries and politician's hands to start building up that very important infrastructure; but that takes time and resources that have barely started rolling right now (I suspect at least 5~10yrs to get a decent amount of the US power grid renovated/working to where we can support a healthy amount of EVs without brown outs and enable extended range driving.)

As I said before, EVs are the future and that's a given; how soon is a matter of addressing some key points that at the moment are keeping EVs behind. I'll buy a Tesla or a Toyota EV (when they finally start making their own) later down the line, but after the infrastructure has gotten better, battery technology has stabilized a bit, and real world reliability is a little more easily proven like a '98 Corolla putting along at 300k+



All that being said, I would say lease a Model S or X if you want; maybe by the time the lease is up the world will have caught up enough that it makes sense to pay for it out of pocket. Until then I say ride along as I have a feeling Tesla isn't going to let off the breakneck pace their pushing this technology if their current behaviour is any indication.