Toyota owners seem to be a fickle group

[SpeedyKevin]

I gave you the formulas and you couldn't do the math. If you can remember back that far I told you you need to it in 3D at the tire patch using the static coefficient of friction. And I also said not to use MathLab. You would then need to do it for the dynamic case and move on from there.

If you did that you would see how much better IFS is but you cant do it so you wont know.

Your expiation was below what a first semester mechanical engineer would need to be able to do in a Statics class in order to pass.

I can spot a pseudo-intellectuals craving attention and spouting nonsense along way away.

That being said, are you going to refute the gear math /explanation now?

 

[Jernik]

The Tundra is the most dinosaur of the four Toyota BOF vehicles by far. It's positively barbaric.

It is, and I think that's why I like it so much (aside from the auto window switch thing)! :biggrin1:

 

[ElectroBoy]

That being said, are you going to refute the gear math /explanation now?

This is a tired old trolling technique of his. He’s in insult mode now. Every thread he’s in ends up this way. Best to ignore him.

 

[thennen]

It is, and I think that's why I like it so much (aside from the auto window switch thing)! :biggrin1:

I don’t know how well they sell anywhere else, but Tundras are everywhere in central Ohio. It seems a lot of people don’t care how dated they are.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

That being said, are you going to refute the gear math /explanation now?

Again during the part of the thread that was "5 speed or 6 speed" my argument is that this has already more than likely simulated to death by Toyota. They chose the 5 speed. The business team and their reasons why they chose not to include this feature is what needs to be discussed IMHO. They also chose not to fuss with it doing its life cycle.

Engineers love to engineer and they are very good at engineering products to the point where they dont make any money. I had this conversation with one of the Tesla Chief Engineers. I cant recall his name at this time because it was several years ago and I doubt he is still around the way things are going there. During our conversation he said they had a meeting at Tesla where he told the engineers to "put down your pencils". I was empathetic. I had been there too.

 

[Jernik]

I don’t know how well they sell anywhere else, but Tundras are everywhere in central Ohio. It seems a lot of people don’t care how dated they are.

There are a ton on the road around here too, but I figured it might be because they're built in San Antonio.

In all honesty, even on dated platforms, I don't think the driving experience feels all that different to the average buyer from the competition's updated models. Once you accept the fuel economy numbers, the Tundra actually drives and rides pretty nice, IMO. And I feel the same about our 4R, even though I think the Tundra engine/transmission is better matched/tuned than the 4R is.

 

[thennen]

There are a ton on the road around here too, but I figured it might be because they're built in San Antonio.

In all honesty, even on dated platforms, I don't think the driving experience feels all that different to the average buyer from the competition's updated models. Once you accept the fuel economy numbers, the Tundra actually drives and rides pretty nice, IMO. And I feel the same about our 4R, even though I think the Tundra engine/transmission is better matched/tuned than the 4R is.

Yeah, I’ve never driven/ridden in a Tundra, but I know a couple of guys who have them, and they like how they drive. Fuel economy is the only negative they mention.

 

[ryguytheman]

Originally Posted by SpeedyKevin
That being said, are you going to refute the gear math /explanation now?

Again during the part of the thread that was "5 speed or 6 speed" my argument is that this has already more than likely simulated to death by Toyota. They chose the 5 speed. The business team and their reasons why they chose not to include this feature is what needs to be discussed IMHO. They also chose not to fuss with it doing its life cycle.

Engineers love to engineer and they are very good at engineering products to the point where they dont make any money. I had this conversation with one of the Tesla Chief Engineers. I cant recall his name at this time because it was several years ago and I doubt he is still around the way things are going there. During our conversation he said they had a meeting at Tesla where he told the engineers to "put down your pencils". I was empathetic. I had been there too.

[MENTION=362200]SpeedyKevin[/MENTION] That's a "no".

 

[jp.vegas]

There are a ton on the road around here too, but I figured it might be because they're built in San Antonio.

In all honesty, even on dated platforms, I don't think the driving experience feels all that different to the average buyer from the competition's updated models. Once you accept the fuel economy numbers, the Tundra actually drives and rides pretty nice, IMO. And I feel the same about our 4R, even though I think the Tundra engine/transmission is better matched/tuned than the 4R is.

The Tundra drivetrain is solid! Large heavy duty components designed to work all day at the limit of the rated envelope. Big brakes, large wheel bearings, practically indestructible rear end. And yes, the tuning is very good too. My complaint with mine was never around the driving experience or the quality.

 

[Muff Muff]

There are a ton on the road around here too, but I figured it might be because they're built in San Antonio.

In all honesty, even on dated platforms, I don't think the driving experience feels all that different to the average buyer from the competition's updated models. Once you accept the fuel economy numbers, the Tundra actually drives and rides pretty nice, IMO. And I feel the same about our 4R, even though I think the Tundra engine/transmission is better matched/tuned than the 4R is.

"Built here, lives here" on the back window of every single one of them.

The Tundra is definitely dated, and while specific components may be beefier than the competition, at the end of the day it isn't an F-150. All a truck buyer needs to know about the Tundra to walk out of the dealership is C-channel frame. After that, they're headed right back to Ford, Chevy, or *gags* Ram.

 

[mbm112]

Again during the part of the thread that was "5 speed or 6 speed" my argument is that this has already more than likely simulated to death by Toyota. They chose the 5 speed. The business team and their reasons why they chose not to include this feature is what needs to be discussed IMHO. They also chose not to fuss with it doing its life cycle.



Engineers love to engineer and they are very good at engineering products to the point where they dont make any money. I had this conversation with one of the Tesla Chief Engineers. I cant recall his name at this time because it was several years ago and I doubt he is still around the way things are going there. During our conversation he said they had a meeting at Tesla where he told the engineers to "put down your pencils". I was empathetic. I had been there too.

Just because the bean counters win the battle against the engineers, doesn't mean the engineers are wrong.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Louisiana Overland]

Basically the 4runner I want built is already being built. They call it a gx460. I just want them to dumb it down a little. Like...offer full bore offroad features like atrac and crawl control and locker on a base model....and maybe an actual shifter for 4wd instead of that sissy knob. Oh and I want 4wd on demand...not full time AWD.

Ill take one in cement please, and thanks.

 

[Ogre75]

Basically the 4runner I want built is already being built. They call it a gx460. I just want them to dumb it down a little. Like...offer full bore offroad features like atrac and crawl control and locker on a base model....and maybe an actual shifter for 4wd instead of that sissy knob. Oh and I want 4wd on demand...not full time AWD.

Ill take one in cement please, and thanks.

Dumb down? You think the electronic computerized gizmos of ATRAC and Crawl Control are dumbed down? Why does the shift lever matter? Either way they are electronically actuated transfer cases.
Sounds like you want a 1970's vintage 4X4.

 

[sn_85]

Basically the 4runner I want built is already being built. They call it a gx460. I just want them to dumb it down a little. Like...offer full bore offroad features like atrac and crawl control and locker on a base model....and maybe an actual shifter for 4wd instead of that sissy knob. Oh and I want 4wd on demand...not full time AWD.

Ill take one in cement please, and thanks.

I actually don't know about that for me personally. The GX has the powertrain I want however it has a lot of negatives as an off-road vehicle. It's ugly. The flow of the plastic bumpers and fascia make it difficult to adapt any type of aftermarket bumper. Everything out there is an adaptation of the Prado bumpers but it's not always an exact fit. There's still pretty weak aftermarket support for bumpers and armor on the GX460. Cargo space is less than the 4Runner due to the 3rd row seats. The barn door has its pros and cons but I'd rather have the 4Runner hatch with roll down window. It doesn't have a rear locker. Again the two big advantages are the V8 and FT4WD but other than that I don't know that I'd trade my 4Runner for a GX460 at this point.

 

[jp.vegas]

I actually don't know about that for me personally. The GX has the powertrain I want however it has a lot of negatives as an off-road vehicle. It's ugly. The flow of the plastic bumpers and fascia make it difficult to adapt any type of aftermarket bumper. Everything out there is an adaptation of the Prado bumpers but it's not always an exact fit. There's still pretty weak aftermarket support for bumpers and armor on the GX460. Cargo space is less than the 4Runner due to the 3rd row seats. The barn door has its pros and cons but I'd rather have the 4Runner hatch with roll down window. It doesn't have a rear locker. Again the two big advantages are the V8 and FT4WD but other than that I don't know that I'd trade my 4Runner for a GX460 at this point.

Don’t worry, the Instagram overlanders will ignore the obvious shortcomings of the platform and make it a fad. Then you’ll want one :biggrin2:

 

[Jetboy]

I gave you the formulas and you couldn't do the math. If you can remember back that far I told you you need to it in 3D at the tire patch using the static coefficient of friction. And I also said not to use MathLab. You would then need to do it for the dynamic case and move on from there.

If you did that you would see how much better IFS is but you cant do it so you wont know.

Your expiation was below what a first semester mechanical engineer would need to be able to do in a Statics class in order to pass.

I can spot a pseudo-intellectuals craving attention and spouting nonsense along way away.

You gave me the formulas? That's funny. At least you have that going for you.

I'm not sure why you'd use matlab - I assume that's what you mean. The basic principles of the scenarios I've shown you are easy to do by hand. The empirical results are also pretty obvious. You can't model every rock, every dust particle, etc. because every condition you'll see is so random and variable. And there's no reason to do it. You won't learn anything we don't already know. Could you design a model and apply a Monte Carlo analysis to randomly generate trail conditions and take it to the extreme of including gravitational pull of the tennis racket 40 miles away? Sure. But it's pointless. You'd never find out more than what the basic calculations and experience both show. Solid axles distribute load better and follow terrain better as an inherent result of the design than IFS at low speeds in high articulation scenarios.

Even the Ford engineers explained that they knew IFS was a compromise and would not work as well in the rocks as a solid axle, but would be better on the road and going fast in the dirt. They went with a long travel, no sway bar, 3 link rear solid axle to compensate for the IFS's limited travel and flex. IFS is certainly the right choice for a 4Runner that's 90% road oriented and 10% dirt oriented. But there's also no question that a solid axle inherently has significant performance benefits in high articulation situations. Or I should say no question for anyone who's ever actually spent any time with it and would know from experience, or anyone who's compared the ground pressure distribution of the two suspension systems. But you're still here arguing that IFS would be better on the most difficult rock crawling type terrain. And that's factually wrong. I find it odd that we're arguing about it.

Presumably you also would prefer IRS too? Toyota does make a highlander. It's a great SUV. Might be right up your alley? IFS, IRS, lighter weight, more power. Presumably a fantastic rock crawler given that it has IRS as compared to the 4Runners crappy solid rear axle.

With respect to the 6AT:

What's odd is how you work so hard to keep avoiding talking about anything concrete. Why do you want to avoid the technical discussion? I'm trying to simplify as much as I possibly can. And I've give you the road map of where we're going. Play a long. It'll be fun.

Do you agree or not that two gears with different teeth counts in mesh result in different rotating speeds when in motion? Can we at least agree on that? If we start really simple we can walk through each step and by the end - we'll either agree or we'll find out what step of the analysis you don't agree with.

 

[sn_85]

Don’t worry, the Instagram overlanders will ignore the obvious shortcomings of the platform and make it a fad. Then you’ll want one :biggrin2:

Haha I don't know. Have you seen the GXOR facebook group or the GX forums? They seem pretty high on the GX as the much superior off-road vehicle even though they only discovered it like 2 years ago. I don't think I'll ever want a GX460, while the powertrain is nice it's not enough for me to ditch my 4R. I'd rather have a 200 series LC, 6th gen 4R, or a Bronco. Bad news for GX owners is that the GX460 is likely the last off-road capable GX going to be produced. From what it sounds like the next gen GX is going to be a bigger mommy mobile.

 

[jp.vegas]

Haha I don't know. Have you seen the GXOR facebook group or the GX forums? They seem pretty high on the GX as the much superior off-road vehicle even though they only discovered it like 2 years ago. I don't think I'll ever want a GX460, while the powertrain is nice it's not enough for me to ditch my 4R. I'd rather have a 200 series LC, 6th gen 4R, or a Bronco. Bad news for GX owners is that the GX460 is likely the last off-road capable GX going to be produced. From what it sounds like the next gen GX is going to be a bigger mommy mobile.

Lol @ superior. Besides the V8/trans there’s nothing better about it. And yeah, I’ve seen those groups and others on forums. LC200 is actually a superior platform but the cost is a large barrier to some. Damn that Toyota resale If I didn’t want both a nice off-roader and a high hp fun car, I could see an LC 200 in the driveway but alas my vehicle addiction doesn’t permit a one vehicle existence.

 

[Jetboy]

Haha I don't know. Have you seen the GXOR facebook group or the GX forums? They seem pretty high on the GX as the much superior off-road vehicle even though they only discovered it like 2 years ago. I don't think I'll ever want a GX460, while the powertrain is nice it's not enough for me to ditch my 4R. I'd rather have a 200 series LC, 6th gen 4R, or a Bronco. Bad news for GX owners is that the GX460 is likely the last off-road capable GX going to be produced. From what it sounds like the next gen GX is going to be a bigger mommy mobile.

I like some aspects of both. But I really don't understand the delusion of the GX owners that it's meaningfully different or better for offroad use. It's not better - and the main question is how much more limited it is given the weight and low hanging plastics. Two years ago the GX group was supposed to join us for a Rubicon trip and they all bailed at the last minute so I never go to do a real side by side on-the-trail comparsion. The closest I've done was in Moab a few times with a GX. Of course the 4Runner is better. It's lighter, has a rear locker, and has significantly higher body clearance. The GX with a 3" lift still dragged a lot of plastic on fins and things. You'd never make it through a trial like poison spider with either bumper still attached, even with a lift. Aside from those things - they're basically identical other than engine/transmission.

I'm probably jumping over to a GX soon myself. Possibly in the next few weeks. Mostly due to wanting something better at towing. But it's going to take some work to get it into offroad ready condition. Ripping out the 3rd row to drop some weight and free up the space. Cutting away plastic all over the place or ideally swapping Prado 150 front clip and rear bumpers. Custom building a new winch setup for the front. All my other skids should swap over. My suspension will swap over. I can keep my 34" tires/wheels. And I have a set of 4.56 diffs with a rear locker ready to go, but I'll have to swap in a 4Runner e-locker rear axle housing and probably DIY the rear locker electronics. In the end - it's a lot of effort to just to get a GX up to a comparable level of a 4Runner, due mostly to the terrible plastics on the GX. However, it should tow and highway cruise much better than my 4R given the extra hp and extra overdrive gear.

If I knew that the electronics would work properly - I'd just swap a 6AT into my 4Runner and maybe 4.88 diffs and call it a day. I doubt they would though. And it's too much effort to do without knowing that it would find and use 6th gear with the ECU. There's a good chance it would, just because Toyota usually does that sort of thing, but I don't know.

 

[mteolus]

4.6 V8
4.81 gearing
6AT transmission
Rear and front locker
LED lights
Better brakes
Optional 285/70/17 AT tires
Optional -10 offset wheels
120 plug in backseat
8" screen with a usable Nav
Way better sound system
Automatic disconnect swaybar
Front camera for off-roading

I would be good with that.

I don't need blindspot monitoring