Toyota Trade Secret

[tranny Frank]

Heres one for you. Toyota uses a #0 sodiumbased grease for the lube in the enclosed knuckle differential,

It looks a lot like gear oil mixed with wheel bearing grease, thats what the common misdiagnosis is.

Its is catagoricly incompatible with lithium grease as specifed if the FSM

It allows the oil thats mixed into grease to seperate and leak out the wiper seal.

Why is this such a big secret? well it lasts for about the life time of the vehicle if you leave it alone. wheres the money in that no fun much better to buy heavy duty axle seals and repack wheel bearings every 30,000 or so and replace axles more often,

 

[tranny Frank]

correct fluid that lasts for 30 years

"Take it to a shop that knows what they are doing. For $600 you can get a complete knuckle overhaul, with the correct parts and fluid and not worry about your axle for another 30 years"
__________________
Kurt Williams
Cruiser Outfitters

This fellow knows the secret, but why still selling heavy duty axle seals and using a thick #2 lithium grease? no fun in that every body loves packing wheel bearings the only thing I can figure

 

[CJ3Flyr]

What is a source for the sodium grease? I did a quick Google and all I could come up with was K&N grease for sealing air filters.

 

[simple]

I am so deep in the sauce right now. What gens are you talking about?

 

[Kmvreter]

Heres one for you. Toyota uses a #0 sodiumbased grease for the lube in the enclosed knuckle differential,

It looks a lot like gear oil mixed with wheel bearing grease, thats what the common misdiagnosis is.

Its is catagoricly incompatible with lithium grease as specifed if the FSM

It allows the oil thats mixed into grease to seperate and leak out the wiper seal.

Why is this such a big secret? well it lasts for about the life time of the vehicle if you leave it alone. wheres the money in that no fun much better to buy heavy duty axle seals and repack wheel bearings every 30,000 or so and replace axles more often,

I'm easily confused so could you clarify a few things for me:

Are you saying we should use the OEM #0, if we need to service this, instead of any other alternative to avoid wheel bearing failure or replacing axles? Do you have the Toyota part number?

"It allows the oil thats mixed into grease to seperate and leak out the wiper seal." Is this a good thing or not?

What is an "enclosed knuckle differential"? Are you talking about front half shaft CV joints?
If yes, then I relubed one of my CV joints using HP90, sold in many auto parts stores, specifically labelled for CV joints. How is HP90 different than "Toyota... #0 sodiumbased grease"?

 

[CJ3Flyr]

I think he's talking about solid front axles maybe... Kurt has Cruiser Outfitters http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/aboutus.html


I looks like they have some neat stuff for LC's.

 

[tranny Frank]

Toyota part #

Yes I also would like to know the Toyota part# for this lube. unfortunatly Toyota wont tell me last time I asked the local dealership the service manager refered to a "privacy Act" . But what got me started was I was told by that same service manager a different type of lube was required under Toyota warranty, I specified thats what I wanted and was told it was available thru thier parts department however the next day was unable to locate it. heres a source

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/steering_knuckle_repair.htm

 

[tranny Frank]

a little more info

Here is a discription I found on line ,

Show all Base Oils, Oil Additives and Specialty Fluids Manufacturers
About Base Oils, Oil Additives and Specialty Fluids
Base oils, oil additives, and specialty fluids are specialty and proprietary base oils and fluids related to lubricants, coolants, thermal oils, greases, metal working fluids and other application- specific fluids. They have a unique composition or tailored compounding suited for specialized applications. Base oils, oil additives, and special fluids can cling to surfaces better than other industrial oils and deliver both lubrication and protection. Base oil is the oil used in oil formulas before additives are introduced. Base oils, oil additives, and specialty fluids are used to provide protection for four-wheel drive steering knuckles, spring shackles, and other components operating in high-load, low-speed conditions.

 

[tranny Frank]

What Would Toyota call it ?

well they are not telling but heres what the Rover folks have to say about it:


One-Shot" GENUINE Swivel Housing Grease. A semi-fluid grease which lubricates drive shaft joints, swivel pins, housing seals and protects the swivel spheres. Reinforced with solid lubricants, highly resistant to water & salt corrossion. Provides better lubrication than EP90 oil when driving, less leaks while standing. One shot packet gives "filled for life" protection. The price is for one packet and is enough for one swivel.

 

[tranny Frank]

The rest of the story

Enclose Knuckle Repair Grease Debacle ...



I recently did a repair/modification to a 1988 Toyota Land Cruiser where the customer

changed his gears from 4-11’s to 4-88’s and indicated he wanted me to repair his Birfields as

well, if needed. Now, this fellow is very perfection orientated. I’ve done quite a bit of work for

him on his Toyota as well as his Ford F-150. So, in catering to his desire to have his toy repaired

in the best possible fashion, I stumbled onto something very interesting.

The wiper seals were oozing lube, so I called him and got the go-ahead to rebuild the
knuckle assembly. Now, I could tell, that at least once in this vehicle’s lifetime, he had the wheel
bearings re-packed and the replacement CR Seal was quite a bit different in design than the original
factory seal. The factory seal is identical in design to an output shaft seal on a transmission, of
which I mostly work with.

I noticed the lube in the knuckle was quite a bit different than you usually see. I inspected the axle seal for any reason for it to be leaking. The seal was fine, still pliable; no reason for cross-contamination of gear oil to cause the strange “goo”. So, I concluded this viscous lube was a factory original. I have also seen this same type of grease in what’s called a “viscous coupler” found in All Wheel Drive rigs.



I had also seen this type of lube in Mercedes Benz axle shafts. So I met with the customer one morning and he supplied me with the 54mm socket for the wheel bearing nuts. He asked how the repair was going. I told him it was all going fine; all we needed was the lube and a spec of how much to put in there. Well, this is where we hit a brick wall. Later that evening he returned to the shop with tubs of white lithium grease that he had purchased at Napa. I told him that wasn’t it. He had showed me a copy of the field service manual and it stated to use “molybedendum disulphide lithium chassis grease”. That’s what he showed to the parts guy and he was sold the white lithium grease. The next day he went to a local oil and grease supply company and purchased tubes of grease with 5% moly. I inspected it and told him that was not it either.



Then he suggested that I call the local Toyota dealership, which I did. Initially, the service manager told me regular old wheel bearing grease would do just fine and that they actually use red Vavoline grease; not what is recommended in the FSM. But I kept asking. There has got to be something different. Although I had seen this lube, I didn’t know what it actually was. Then he recalled that under Toyota warranty some other type of grease was required. I indicated that’s what we wanted. He told me that it was available thru their parts department. At that point I figured that was the end of the story. This customer could get the correct grease and I could finish the repair. Well, the next day he returned to the shop empty handed. I asked “What about the Toyota grease?” Evidently, the service manager was unable to find it.



Then we decided to look into this further. He posted a thread on a Toyota website asking this question. He indicated that I wanted some sort of liquified grease to fill up his steering knuckles. An accurate description, I thought. Well, the answers he got back where mostly rude comments about how I was a dumb-ass and that the land cruiser front ends are different; and that the lube was nothing more than regular wheel bearing grease and to just pack it full. I began looking in old manuals and I found out that in the 1960’s, any domestic manufacturer that built a 4x4 used this design as it pertains to lubrication. Only a few mention anything about it. Ford only says to fill with "proper lubricant." Dodge states to fill with “short fiber grease.” International says to use a “viscous chassis lube”; 38 0z of it. That was the best clue so far. The word “viscous” means “syrup” or “glue like.” Then I got my greasy paws on an old Jeep book. In that it states that “sodium based grease” was used at the factory for initial fill. I have never heard of “sodium grease”. I tracked some down and it’s the correct lubricant in the #0 form. It looks exactly like wheel bearing grease contaminated with gear oil and has amazing adhesion characteristics while still being pourable.



It also mentions that if you mix lithium grease with the sodium grease, it will result in a thinned out mix (this will allow the oil that’s mixed into grease to provide lubrication to bleed thru the wiper seals). Now it is my opinion that there isn’t a huge problem with these differentials having axle seal problems, rather that it is the incompatibility of the grease used here in the US. If in the event of an axle seal failure, it’s just as likely it would leak thru the wheel bearing seals. The spindle hub and gasket are cut out for this very reason.



Now I should mention that the owner of this Land Cruiser told me that if he wanted me to do something to his rig that I didn’t think was right- not to do it. I remember thinking to myself at the time, that would probably never happen. But, sure enough, it turned out to be something as simple as grease.





You may think that these domestic manufacturers are all stating to lube the knuckle through the fill plug have nothing to do with Toyota. This is not the case. Toyota purchased this design from DANA, who built these things for all the domestic manufacturers. Toyota followed the design so close that some parts are interchangeable; for instance, the upper and lower Trunion Bearings. The Timken Bearing out of the Jeep will fit in a Land Cruiser. One difference, however, although the same dimensions, the Timken Bearing has a different thrust angle that gives it the capability to handle more load.



Now, I do realize that there are hardcore Toyota fans that would rather burn in hell than to put a Jeep part in their Land Cruiser, but it’s better by design.

In reading through the Toyota magazines, there seems to be a resounding theme of “Jeep bashing”, much like the Ford and Chevy rivalry . The fact of the matter is that the Land Cruiser is based off that humble little 4x4 machine built in the 1940's. I will credit Toyota for making some improvements on this particular differential: the addition of disc brakes, location of fill plug, and an additional wheel bearing seal.



So this is what I see happens. A Toyota owner with one of these rigs gets a brake job done; the wheel bearings get repacked as a normal operating procedure (at most shops). The grease used is incompatible. It mixes up in there. The oil in the grease then leaks out through the wiper seal. The problem then is misdiagnosed as an axle seal leak and the whole thing gets torn back apart when it would have been better to leave it alone. Yes, the old saying "If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it" sure applies here. The worst thing that happened to this 1988 Land Cruiser with 130,000 miles on it was a wheel bearing pack and an aftermarket single lip grease seal was installed.





The advantages of using the factory lubrication are incredibly longer service intervals. Dirt and contaminants will be wiped into the hub with regular “dry grease”. The hubs work better in extreme cold conditions when using the correct lubricant. When operating in 4 x 4 mode, the viscous lube is flung around enough to lubricate the Upper Trunion Bearing. It’s common knowledge that a “dry seal” isn’t effective. Regular wheel bearing grease is exactly that: dry. It can’t seal as good. The “sodium grease” leaves a thin film on the exposed steel spherical portion of the ball to prevent it from rusting and pitting.

 

[tranny Frank]

Toyota Part #

Ok I have found a Toyota part # for what is called a Toyota chassis lube

It took hours of searching and repeated request at Toyota dealerships all over the country. with them all saying something of this sort did not exist.

P/N 08887-80219

When I found it on the internet it was listed at aprox 11 $ per ounce
When I called the dealership this morning to order some its going to run 20 some bucks to get my hands on 1 ounce of this Toyota grease,
so rather waste my money I hope some one can answer just a couple of questions. Is it a Fluid Form of lube? and it shows up in TSB #DL-94-001 for a bearing upgrade from bushing in the IFS rigs, also I am wondering if this is the stuff the service manager told me about for the lube in the enclosed knuckle that was required under Toyota warranty. But at 20 $ a ounce who could afford that. IT would cost you over 500 $ to fill the knuckles

 

[nship]

Lucas oils ?

at any point in your research ,did LUCAS oil products come close to your needs or of any help in the the info you desired ?

 

[tranny Frank]

lucas oil

Thats a good idea. I have been thinking to contact one of those oil reps, because I know that all of those places like lucas, amzoil, shafferers are constantly dealing with manufactures warranty requirements for oils and greases. They may have some info, I did have a oil rep from shafferers come to the shop and give a demo it was really interesting however he didnt know much about this particular application, however was well aware of incompatible greases and the problems it can cause,

I have been in contact with a local chevron oil and grease distributer . They have been very helpful.

 

[tranny Frank]

goop

Heres a section taken from Toyota offroad website #12 points out not to mix soda greases, a different term for sodium the chemical reaction causes the oil thats mixed into grease to seperate and leak out thru the wiper seal

I would like to thank Toyota 4-runner forums to allow me to post this info beings I have been banned from several other Toyota websites for attempting to clue you all on to this, I presented this info to Marlin Crawler Forums been banned!! bummer, I dont know if they know better and dont care or if they dont want to think they have been tricked by some thing as silly as grease.

I did order some of that Toyota grease its not the grease for the knuckle but interestingly enough it is a synthetic oil and lithium soap a #1 grade I would say but no mention of molybedendum disulphate wich seems to be in all of the Toyota FSM
here you go

PACKING BEARINGS:

Pack the bearings by placing a glob of grease in your (clean) hand and hold the bearing with the wider side of it down. Keep dipping the bearing into the grease until the grease flows out the other side. Spin the bearing and start dipping again. Continue this until you've completely gone all the way around the bearing. I recommend buying a bearing packer, they're quicker and cleaner to use. Put a little smear of grease on the outside of the bearing and insert it into the race.

1. A few good rules to follow: Use clean solvent and brushes and dry thoroughly with clean air.
2. Never spin-dry bearings; this causes scratching of the polished surface and may result in premature failure.
3. Do not pack the bearing unless it is perfectly dry.
4. Good practice calls for a thorough inspection after cleaning and before reinstallation. Bearings are often hammered or pulled without respect for such precision made assemblies. Re-assembly of a damaged bearing results in short component life.
5. Pack the bearing immediately following cleaning, drying and inspection.
6. Do not use an excessive amount of grease - be sure it is worked into every bearing space, but do not fill the hub with grease.
7. Keep bearings clean, work on a clean bench and do not handle bearings with dirty or moist hands.
8. When re-assembling check the bearing for proper seating.
9. Check adjustments carefully. Most vehicle manufacturers nominate a torsion wrench setting for bearing assemblies. Use a torque wrench and do not exceed the manufacturer's recommendation.
10. Check brake shoe clearance, the dragging tip of a brake shoe or pad can create very high wheel temperatures in a short run.
11. Keep grease containers completely covered when not in use to avoid contamination. (Replace the lid immediately sufficient grease has been removed from the container).
12. Do not mix different types of grease. Under no circumstances must lithium based multi-purpose grease be mixed with soda base wheel bearing grease or an adverse chemical reaction will occur.
13. Carefully avoid contact of the packed bearing with dirt, dust, water or dirty hands.
14. Use the correct grade of grease for the job. Do not at any time use chassis grease. If the vehicle is used in very arduous service or under unusual conditions of load and speed, check with the manufacturer for correct grease recommendation ..........."""

I do have scans of shop manuals, I have emailed them to Toyota 4- runner forums and can do so again

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Ok, I REALLY want to follow and understand all of this. Does anyone have a link to a concise, one-stop shopping, primer on grease? Thanks
:cheers:

 

[tranny Frank]

grease

oddly enough snapper lawn mowers have a similiar need for a semi fluid grease a application where 80-90 is to thin and regular grease is to thick, heres a good general breakdown of grease,borrowed from this thread
Snapper Comet mower differentials specify "Snapper 00 grease," what interchanges? - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum & Discussion Board and Best Place for Tractor Information on the web!!!

First off let's take a look at what grease is.

Grease is 70% to 80% base oil + 1% to 10% Additives + 8% to 12% thickeners.
Grease thickeners are:
1 soap based organic ( lithium complex, and aluminum complex )
2 non soap based organic ( Polyurea)
3 Inorganic ( Clays and Silicas)
The ammount of thickener added determines the thickness of the grease.
There are 9 NLGI (National Lubricating Grease Institute) Grades, they are:
NLGI # 000 very soft, semi fluid
NLGI # 00 very soft, semi fluid
NLGI # 0 very soft, will not flow
NLGI # 1 soft , couplings
NLGI # 2 The most commonly used grease for automotive type use, wheel bearings, universal joints.
NLGI # 3 Very stiff, high speed bearings
NLGI # 4 Extremely stiff
NLGI # 5 Nearly solid
NLGI # 6 Solid brick , used for lubricating drag line cables

Lithium based grease is the most common and widely used thickener.
Polyurea is frequently used in sealed for life bearings and electric motor bearings.
Clay and silica thickeners are used more for industrial and special applications such as nuclear power plants, and extreme temperature applications such as steel plants.
When changing greases compatibility must be taken into consideration, mixing greases that use different thickeners is asking for trouble.
Polyurea thickeners are only compatible with polyurea thickeners, do not mix polyurea with greases containing a different type thickeners, the reaction from incompatible grease thickeners produces fluid seperation, the item being lubricated is left with the leftovers of the reaction which will lead to component failure.
Sodium thickeners are only compatible with sodium thickeners.
Lithium thickeners are the most common thickeners most of us use on our auto, heavy equipment, lawn mower type applications. Lithium complex is compatible with other lithium type thickeners as well as most calcium type thickeners.
The snapper grease you refer to is a NLGI # 00 semi fluid grease, no one has made mention of the type of thickener used in the snapper grease. It may very well be a lithium type thickener, but without the manufacturer specifications I would be guessing.
There is a saying to remember when changing greases, when in doubt flush it out. If you would like to change to Amsoil 00 grease, or another brand, be sure to flush out the housing to remove old grease before adding the new.
Another thing to consider is what components are in the gearbox, if it contains no yellow brass or soft copper, you could use Amsoil SAE 190 GL-5 Severe gear synthetic lube, as it is the same viscosity as the NLGI #00 semi fluid grease. If the gearbox uses these soft metals the Sulfur based EP additives in the GL-5 gear oils will corrode yellow brass and soft copper.
Many companies play the scare the customer back to us lubricant "Game" with their customers, the more you know about lubrication, the less often you end up a victim of their "Game".
Hope this helps !
Have a great day !
Don



Sadly, Toyota folks have been a victim of the grease game.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

That's great! Thank-you:bigok:

 

[tranny Frank]

very thick oil, inboard CV joint

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You are here: Experts > Home/Garden > Auto Repair > Toyota Repair > CV boot's grease ?

Toyota Repair - CV boot's grease ?
Expert: Ted Ritter - 12/19/2007

Question
1986 4-Runner 4wd, 170K+ when removing the inner passenger side CV boot it contained a very thick oil, almost like transfer case gear oil. The outer boot had the expected grease. What type of lubricant is supposed to go back on/in? thanks!


Answer
It's normal for the inner cv joints to have this oil like substance after many miles, the grease used on the inner cv joints is different, if you are replacing the cv boots the kit should come with two tubes or bags of grease marked for inner and outer cv joints.

This is news to me has any-one rebuilt their CV shafts and used this type of lube, what type of lube is used on the inboard cv joint? this is on a site called allexperts,

 

[tranny Frank]

Area of expertise

Who in the Toyota world knows anything about the basic of automotive technology of grease???


Your question was

This question is for Ted Ritter or any other Toyota tech, What type of semi-fluid lube is used for initail fill for the Toyota straight axle?(steering knuckle) from what I have gathered it is not a #2 lithium based grease
this semi fluid lube is a #0 soda or sodium based lube.from all that I have compiled. since its obvious this design is meant for a fluid type lube Why does the FSM indicate to use a #2 thick grease?? , when they are filled with a semi fluid that gets misdiagnosed as gear oil contaimination because poor Toyota folks simply dont know any better and dont know this form of lube exists

But this is outside of my expertise.

Expert: Ted Ritter

If you'd like to ask another question in the category, please come to Toyota Repair - Auto Repair - Home/Garden

 

[tranny Frank]

Books of Knowledge

Some where in the Toyota archives is a Book of knowledge about the most basic, fundamental aspect of automotive technology, nothing fancy, nothing high tech, plain old grease/lube, Toyota has been milking this cash cow for years, its time to wise up!!!!. Get your own Books of knowledge


By Steve Gorman

LOS ANGELES, Feb 26 (Reuters) - A U.S. congressional panel has found evidence Toyota routinely withheld company records it should have turned over in court and settled personal injury cases to avoid revealing key engineering data dubbed the "Books of Knowledge," the panel's chairman said on Friday.

A paper trail of Toyota's alleged misconduct in defending itself against personal injury suits was revealed in documents subpoenaed from a former in-house Toyota lawyer, said Edolphus Towns, chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

The documents "indicate a systematic disregard for the law and routine violation of court discovery orders in litigation," Towns wrote in a letter to Toyota Motor Corp's North American chief, Yoshimi Inaba, demanding an explanation.

Moreover, the documents "raise very serious questions as to whether Toyota has also withheld substantial, relevant information" from U.S. auto safety regulators, Towns wrote.

The disclosure represents a potential bombshell for Toyota, whose top executives testified under oath before Towns' panel that the company was fully cooperating with investigations into safety issues, including sudden, unintended acceleration, that have led to a worldwide recall of some 8.5 million vehicles.

In a statement issued on Thursday in response to Towns' letter, the company defended its legal conduct, saying, "It is not uncommon ... for companies to object to certain demands for documents made in litigation."

"Consistent with that philosophy, we take appropriate steps to maintain confidentiality of competitive business information and trade secrets," Toyota said. "We are confident that we have acted appropriately with respect to product liability litigation and our discovery practices and look forward to addressing Chairman Towns' concerns."

'BOOKS OF KNOWLEDGE'

The committee's review of the subpoenaed documents found multiple references to a secret cache of data called the "Books of Knowledge" and kept in electronic form by Toyota engineers, consisting of design and testing data for all vehicle lines and parts, Towns said.

According to his letter to Inaba, the documents "indicate that Toyota entered into multimillion-dollar settlements in tort cases where they feared the plaintiff's lawyer was getting close to discovering the existence of the Books of Knowledge."

In one of those cases, the documents show, Toyota agreed to pay $1.5 million to settle a lawsuit stemming from a rollover accident in Texas that left a young woman, Pennie Green, a quadriplegic.

The material Towns cited was obtained by his committee under subpoena last week from Dimitrios Biller, who headed Toyota's U.S. products liability legal team from April 2003 to September 2007.

Biller took the 6,000 pages of documents with him when he left the automaker and has since offered them as evidence in a lawsuit he filed against Toyota under U.S. racketeering laws, as well as for wrongful termination and emotional distress.

In the Green case, Biller said that Toyota Motor Sales -- the automaker's U.S. sales arm -- had agreed to settle for up to $2 million to avoid disclosing key engineering information.

"Plaintiff's discovery efforts ... were getting too close to requiring (Toyota) to produce the 'Books of Knowledge,'" Biller wrote, according to a copy of the correspondence obtained by Reuters.

In one internal memo dated Sept. 1, 2005, referring to the so-called Books of Knowledge, Biller wrote: "Clearly, this information should have been produced in litigation before today." He added that Toyota "is clearly not producing all of the relevant information/documents in its possession," Towns said.

Toyota has sought unsuccessfully to get the papers back, claiming their disclosure violates attorney-client privilege, and has pursued a breach-of-contract suit against Biller.

The company also has suggested his documents are irrelevant to the current recalls because his work at Toyota was limited to claims stemming from rollover accidents. But a newly disclosed email exchange involving Biller and another Toyota executive about a case of unintended acceleration shows that Biller was at least aware of that issue.

In his letter, Towns asks Inaba a number of pointed questions raised by the Biller documents, including whether Toyota has disclosed the existence of the Books of Knowledge to U.S. safety regulators and whether the data had ever been produced in response to discovery requests in litigation.

In an email from November 2006 that was provided to congressional investigators, Biller had warned that the secrecy of Toyota's headquarters was creating new risks for the automaker.

"Toyota is no longer a small company on the island of Japan thousands of miles from the United States," Biller wrote.

"Toyota is a global, multinational corporation. ... We all understand this situation, but so do the plaintiffs' counsel and judges in the United States. They read the newspapers about Toyota and its expansion. The world has become incredibly small."

During two days of testimony before congressional investigators this week, U.S. lawmakers had criticized Toyota for not sharing safety information fully enough with its U.S. operations. (Additional reporting by Kevin Krolicki in Detroit; Editing by Todd Eastham, Gary Hill)

(c) Copyright Thomson Reuters 2010. Click For Restrictions. Full Legal Notice - Media - Thomson Reuters
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