Trayvon Martin photos and text messages

You are building a case based on incorrect assumptions.

When you are on private property where you both have a right to be present (or any public property), yes you can be followed. It is obviously uncomfortable, creepy, and can lead to confrontation... but simply following someone is NOT against the law. And without some kind of physical threat being present, you absolutely cannot attack or physically defend yourself preemptively, at least not legally anyway, even in a stand your ground state.

Absurd.

Someone is stalking/chasing you at night and that's within their legal right?

You have to be batshit crazy to think that someone is well within their rights to chase down a complete stranger at night and demand to know what they're doing and not expect that person to react as if threatened.

Stand your ground has no bearing on such a confrontation that you instigated--unless you think confronting a stranger at night is normal, friendly behavior, and no one in their right mind would not feel threatened.

Go follow some women back to their cars at night and ask them what they're doing there and see how long your theory works out for you. Or find one that's jogging late at night and see if she politely lets you interrogate rather than give you a kick to the nuts and a face of pepper spray (or worse). How is your scenario any different from a stalker?
 
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Absurd.

Someone is stalking/chasing you at night and that's within their legal right?

You have to be batshit crazy to think that someone is well within their rights to chase down a complete stranger at night and demand to know what they're doing and not expect that person to react as if threatened.

Stand your ground has no bearing on such a confrontation that you instigated--unless you think confronting a stranger at night is normal, friendly behavior, and no one in their right mind would not feel threatened.

Go follow some women back to their cars at night and ask them what they're doing there and see how long your theory works out for you. Or find one that's jogging late at night and see if she politely lets you interrogate rather than give you a kick to the nuts and a face of pepper spray (or worse). How is your scenario any different from a stalker?

What you think is right and what's legal sometimes don't go hand in hand. Until a threat presents itself, if you strike first, YOU are the instigator of physical conflict. Is it really that hard to understand? Some might take their chances and deal with the consequences of striking first and some of those might end up like Martin.
 
What you think is right and what's legal sometimes don't go hand in hand. Until a threat presents itself, if you strike first, YOU are the instigator of physical conflict. Is it really that hard to understand? Some might take their chances and deal with the consequences of striking first and some of those might end up like Martin.

And the whole reason that this still hasn't been resolved that it isn't cut and dry. You're reaching if you think that pulling over your car and confronting a "suspicious" person at night and while armed isn't considered provocation. To any outside observer, it looks like YOU'RE the one picking the fight.

Since there's only one side of the story, Zimmerman won't have to worry about being labeled as the aggressor by the victim--but he more than likely was and this should serve as a warning to any armed posse who wants to go out at night and harrass people who have every right to be there.

Everyone just wants this to be the great self-defense slam dunk but in reality if you're armed you shouldn't be going out and provoking trouble. There are no laws to protect you from that, and the "stand your ground" is really shaky when there's a great deal of reasonable doubt pointing to the fact that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation.
 
And if you think following someone or verbally confronting them is grounds for a preemptive physical attack, you have a seriously skewed idea of what constitutes self defense...

It doesn't matter if he was carrying or not, just when and how the gun was used once it entered the conflict.
 
Or if Zimmerman wasn't... oh wait

I'm struggling to get that context.

Mine was clear, if Treyvon were white "we" wouldn't all be delightfully going on about how he was such a "thug" with our keyboard tough guy latent racism and have some actual human decency and respect for this loss of life.

Was it a joke about the casual practice of "brown people killing brown people" all the time that went over my head?
 
I'm struggling to get that context.

Mine was clear, if Treyvon were white "we" wouldn't all be delightfully going on about how he was such a "thug" with our keyboard tough guy latent racism and have some actual human decency and respect for this loss of life.

Was it a joke about the casual practice of "brown people killing brown people" all the time that went over my head?

The only reason this thing caught so much attention initially is because the race card was played, and played hard... a grown white man killing a little black kid. Had the story been a Hispanic man kills a black adult sized teenager, we probably wouldn't still be talking about it. It's sad, but it's true.
 
A private citizen has ZERO right to follow me and ask me my intent and I sure as hell would consider it a threat.

If I'm on an evening walk, some neighborhood watch vigilante (can't think of any better word for it) has the right to stalk and confront me? Because he thinks I'm suspicious?

I don't have to answer to POLICE without suspicion of probable cause and in the presence of an attorney. You're telling me Georgie boy fascist lawman of the gated community can chase me down and grill me as to my intent at night because he thinks I'm 'suspicious?'

I think Trayvon had every right to beat Zimmerman's head into the pavement, as far as he was concerned he was being threatened by some jackoff with a gun. Too bad he lost that fight.

Actually, a private citizen has EVERY right to ask you whatever they want. And likewise, you have the right to tell them to mind their own business. Asking someone why they're in a certain neighborhood does not constitute a "threat." Try immediately beating up every person you come into contact with who disagrees with you/accosts you/etc. and see how that goes in court. If I walk up to someone and ask them WTF they're doing in my neighborhood - even if I do it rudely/aggressively - and they beat me up for it, they're going to be putting my kids through college. Period.

If a neighborhood watch person - or ANY person - 'confronts' you, asks you what you're doing, etc., and you don't like it, you are free to tell them to mind their own business. You get to tell them if they don't like your presence there, they should call the police. Better yet, call the police, yourself.

What you DON'T get to do is beat them up, simply because they ask you what you're doing in a particular neighborhood. That's called "assault."

FYI - there is no such thing as "suspicion of probable cause." No, you don't have to talk to the "POLICE" (??), but they can still arrest you if they have reason to believe that you committed a crime.

A lot of people seem to be automatically assuming that Zimmerman accosted this kid with a drawn gun in his hand, brandished it, or whatever, and that's why the fight ensued. I'm not buying it - not because of Zimmerman's account or the family's. I'm not buying it because it flies in the face of common sense. That would have to involve two VERY stupid people, each doing something equally stupid at the same time. Meaning that one person is such a cowboy that - as Bofa said - he's intentionally taking an action that any normal person knows will have serious repercussions, may involve bodily harm to himself or someone else, and may end up ruining his life. And the other is dumb enough to attack a person who is holding a gun, for no reason other than...what? For being asked why he was in the area? It doesn't add up.

Common sense tells me that Martin took offense at being "watched" by this guy (and in fairness, many people might), but made the mistake of starting a fistfight, only to find out that his opponent was armed with more than fists. After that, our country's ambulance-chasing racial pot-stirrers like Sharpton and his ilk used the media hype to their advantage a duped a shi%-load of people into believing that George Zimmerman has nothing better to do with his life than walk around his apartment community shooting black kids for sport.

I don't think it matters, though. I think this is going to go the way of Bernard Goetz case. Zimmerman will be found not guilty in the criminal trial, but Martin's family - who have already shown a glimpse of their financial motivation when they applied to have the "hoodie" image copywritten in their name (???) - will destroy his life by suing the crap out of him. That's how most of these cases go whenever race is involved.
 
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FYI - there is no such thing as "suspicion of probable cause." No, you don't have to talk to the "POLICE" (??), but they can still arrest you if they have reason to believe that you committed a crime.

What is the crime, being black and outside in a "white" neighborhood at night? I guess a lot of black people who live in predominantly white neighborhoods have a lot to answer for, and people like you have the right to chase them down like fascist thugs and ask them what they're doing. And what constitutes a satisfactory answer to you, if you don't like the answer would you detain that person until police arrive, by force if necessary?

I'm sure after Martin told the neighborhood watch officer, Zimmerman, that he should get lost, Zimmerman didn't really like that answer and tried to force Martin to stay for the police because he had already assumed that walking while black is suspicious behavior in and of itself and that led to a physical confrontation. If Martin was acting suspicious, what exactly was he doing? Did Zimmerman ever specify besides being suspicious. Must have been the skin tone and a hoodie.

If Zimmerman had lost the fight and wound up on the slab, there'd be an exactly similar debate about how Martin repelled an overly zealous attacker who was armed, and won.
 
What is the crime, being black and outside in a "white" neighborhood at night? I guess a lot of black people who live in predominantly white neighborhoods have a lot to answer for, and people like you have the right to chase them down like fascist thugs and ask them what they're doing. And what constitutes a satisfactory answer to you, if you don't like the answer would you detain that person until police arrive, by force if necessary?

I'm sure after Martin told the neighborhood watch officer, Zimmerman, that he should get lost, Zimmerman didn't really like that answer and tried to force Martin to stay for the police because he had already assumed that walking while black is suspicious behavior in and of itself and that led to a physical confrontation. If Martin was acting suspicious, what exactly was he doing? Did Zimmerman ever specify besides being suspicious. Must have been the skin tone and a hoodie.

If Zimmerman had lost the fight and wound up on the slab, there'd be an exactly similar debate about how Martin repelled an overly zealous attacker who was armed, and won.

Ah... now it all becomes clear. Nice to meet you Al Sharpton.
 
A lot of people seem to be automatically assuming that Zimmerman accosted this kid with a drawn gun in his hand, brandished it, or whatever, and that's why the fight ensued. I'm not buying it - not because of Zimmerman's account or the family's. I'm not buying it because it flies in the face of common sense.

Yes it is more believable that Z verbally confronted / questioned / harassed T with the gun hidden, a fight broke out and the gun was used.

The prosecution is using the fact that the police told Z not to pursue T as reason for Murder 2 while Z claims self-defense.

I am not a LOE or lawyer but this case looks more like Manslaughter than murder, at least from what I've read.

They won't be able to prove that Z made the decision because of race so it will be an uphill battle to secure a conviction.
 
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What is the crime, being black and outside in a "white" neighborhood at night? I guess a lot of black people who live in predominantly white neighborhoods have a lot to answer for, and people like you have the right to chase them down like fascist thugs and ask them what they're doing. And what constitutes a satisfactory answer to you, if you don't like the answer would you detain that person until police arrive, by force if necessary?

I'm sure after Martin told the neighborhood watch officer, Zimmerman, that he should get lost, Zimmerman didn't really like that answer and tried to force Martin to stay for the police because he had already assumed that walking while black is suspicious behavior in and of itself and that led to a physical confrontation. If Martin was acting suspicious, what exactly was he doing? Did Zimmerman ever specify besides being suspicious. Must have been the skin tone and a hoodie.

If Zimmerman had lost the fight and wound up on the slab, there'd be an exactly similar debate about how Martin repelled an overly zealous attacker who was armed, and won.

There doesn't have to be "a crime" to simply ask someone what they're doing in a particular place. And in the context of having had several burglaries in that area, I don't see it as out of place for anyone to do that.

"Chase them down like fascist thugs?" You're assuming quite a bit. No one knows how the contact went down. But like I said, I seriously doubt Zimmerman charged up to Martin with gun-in-hand and attempted to detain him. Common sense dictates that as a VERY stupid thing to do. Especially after the 911 operator told him not to do so and he acknowledge it on tape. He also said nothing on the tape about Martin being black. Just that he was a "guy" whom he thought was behaving strangely. Whether Martin was or wasn't has nothing to do with his race, as the evidence appears to show.

You're obviously unhappy about the outcome - I suspect for different reasons: you don't seem very fond of law enforcement to begin with, or with anyone simply accosting anyone else. That's my suspicion from the tone of your post. Well, too bad, so sad. In the world we live in, people routinely put their noses in other peoples' business, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean you get to beat them up for it.

Apparently, you can't overcome your own emotional response and ask yourself why Zimmerman would have acted the way you assume he did. I see no reason whatsoever for him to try and act like a cop and detain a person with no cuffs of intermediate weapon. Zimmerman may or may not be a smart guy, but that's such a stupid thing for anyone to do that it defies logic. And equally logic-defying is the idea that Martin attacked a man who was allegedly holding a gun and/or pointing it at him.
 
You guys still beating this dead ass horse?

It was a story seized upon by the media to further divide the population. If we're too busy fighting each other - how will we ever be able to team up to defeat those in need of defeating?

We will never know exactly what happened because the 6:00 news will only tell us the "truths" they want us to know - only the bits and pieces that fit the narrative.

It worked beautifully, didn't it?
 
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You guys still beating this dead ass horse?

It was a story seized upon by the media to further divide the population. If we're too busy fighting each other - how will we ever be able to team up to defeat those in need of defeating?

We will never know exactly what happened because the 6:00 news will only tell us the "truths" they want us to know - only the bits and pieces that fit the narrative.

It worked beautifully, didn't it?

Considering the fact that I had never posted on this topic until a few days ago, I figured I was free to at least voice my opinion, regardless whether someone felt it to be "beating a dead horse" or not.

And in that vein....If I ever felt that a topic was being "beaten" too much, I'd probably just ignore it and move on.
 
Considering the fact that I had never posted on this topic until a few days ago, I figured I was free to at least voice my opinion, regardless whether someone felt it to be "beating a dead horse" or not.

And in that vein....If I ever felt that a topic was being "beaten" too much, I'd probably just ignore it and move on.

Good for you.


What's happening, Brian - how's the BMW holding out for you?
 
Brian - how's the BMW holding out for you?

It broke down like all BMWs lol. I sold it 30 days before the warranty ended and bought a Lexus CT-200h which I use for work driving. Gets about a solid 41 MPG so that helps with the mileage.

You should update your pics/adventure/build thread, haven't heard from you in forever.
 
Good for you.

Yeah, there's nothing quite as helpful to an internet forum as jumping into a thread and chastising others for still posting in it...then being a smartass when someone tries to politely tell you that they might like to have their say on the topic, like everyone else did.

Maybe this will be clearer:
 

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Yeah, there's nothing quite as helpful to an internet forum as jumping into a thread and chastising others for still posting in it...then being a smartass when someone tries to politely tell you that they might like to have their say on the topic, like everyone else did.

Maybe this will be clearer:

Put your panties back on, [MENTION=67598]RandyDaytona[/MENTION]....my post wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular and was fairly gentle in its overall tone. I didn't chastise anyone nor did I attack anyone as you just have.

Take a breath and relax - not everyone out there is trying to shitt on your parade.

As far as your charge that I am a smart ass...you are correct, sir. You are also guilty of the same emotionally-charged responses that you accuse others of doing and should have your shitty-ass Marine Corps. stickers ripped off your shitty-ass vehicles. (Notice the difference in an ambiguous statement -- my first post that got your panties in a wad -- and this direct response?):dance:
 
Um, I'm pretty sure "are-you-guys-still-beating-a-dead-horse" is an admonishment to everyone engaged in the conversation that they're wasting their time... But let's not backpedal too much...

And I didn't "attack" anyone, at the outset. I simply opined that if your intent in posting the sentiment above was your primary one, that you should mind your own business.

You decided to respond like an *##*hole. So I did the same. Apparently, I'm not allowed to do that by your rules - not without you accusing me of being overly-upset or "emotionally-charged" - ?

Whatever, dude. It's called tit for tat. If you don't like getting it, you should probably try not to give it out.

If you want to keep bagging on me - or keep exchanging pleasantries with another member that have nothing to do with the thread (?) - I think that's what the PM function is for.

Otherwise, I'm out. Because I don't think I can break down the whole concept of "act-like-a-tool, get-treated-like-a-tool" any further than the plant-life-level that I've already broken it down to.
 

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