Unboxing: Raybestos Pro-Grade LBJs

[nobb]

I would be interested in seeing some of your findings, if you have them documented somewhere.

How did you determine the "poorer grade of material?"

What part of the stud are you talking about in regards to polished? The tapered part, the ball and socket?

Im no materials specialist, but my findings were as follows:

1) Ball stud: The ball stud itself on the OEM part has a polished surface that appears to be made from a higher grade stainless steel that is likely hardened. The movement was smooth and fluid. In comparison, the Raybestos/Sankei/NAPA part seemed to use a darker metal ball that was LESS consistent in appearance and did NOT have a polished surface like the OEM part. It almost looked like a cast iron part. The problem with this was that the movement of the ball in the socket was rough and not fluid. Moving the ball around with my hand caused visible scratches on the ball surface due to the poor mating between the ball and the socket. Strangely, the Upper ball joints from Raybestos did NOT have the flaws that the Lower ball joints had and were actually comparable to OEM quality (polished stud, smooth movement, higher grade steel).

2) Socket: The socket in which the ball sits on the Raybestos/Sankei/NAPA also appeared to be made from a lower grade steel. Once again, it looks like a cast iron part. The material was darker in color, with a less consistent texture. In comparison, the OEM socket has the same qualities of the ball. Stainless steel material that just "feels" more finely machined and hardened properly.

3) Rubber boot: The boot on the OEM joint is a noticeably thicker and tougher rubber material.

4) The Good: The ONLY good note about the aftermarket joints is that they are greasable. I personally am not a fan of sealed components, but I guess it's easy for most people to neglect servicing these parts so a sealed design makes sense for the majority consumer.

Once again, I am no expert on the matter. I would invite people with aftermarket joints to take the boot off and make their own comparisons. The real troubling part is the rough movement from the poor machining/material choice which causes scratching and wear on the surface of the ball. If I can cause those scratches from moving it with my hand just a few times, imagine the beating that ball is taking from 1000's of KMs of driving. As soon as I unboxed my Raybestos joints and felt the movement, I took them back so that I could buy the proper OEM part instead.

 

[opie74]

Im no materials specialist, but my findings were as follows:

1) Ball stud: The ball stud itself on the OEM part has a polished surface that appears to be made from a higher grade stainless steel that is likely hardened. The movement was smooth and fluid. In comparison, the Raybestos/Sankei/NAPA part seemed to use a darker metal ball that was LESS consistent in appearance and did NOT have a polished surface like the OEM part. It almost looked like a cast iron part. The problem with this was that the movement of the ball in the socket was rough and not fluid. Moving the ball around with my hand caused visible scratches on the ball surface due to the poor mating between the ball and the socket. Strangely, the Upper ball joints from Raybestos did NOT have the flaws that the Lower ball joints had and were actually comparable to OEM quality (polished stud, smooth movement, higher grade steel).

2) Socket: The socket in which the ball sits on the Raybestos/Sankei/NAPA also appeared to be made from a lower grade steel. Once again, it looks like a cast iron part. The material was darker in color, with a less consistent texture. In comparison, the OEM socket has the same qualities of the ball. Stainless steel material that just "feels" more finely machined and hardened properly.

3) Rubber boot: The boot on the OEM joint is a noticeably thicker and tougher rubber material.

4) The Good: The ONLY good note about the aftermarket joints is that they are greasable. I personally am not a fan of sealed components, but I guess it's easy for most people to neglect servicing these parts so a sealed design makes sense for the majority consumer.

Once again, I am no expert on the matter. I would invite people with aftermarket joints to take the boot off and make their own comparisons. The real troubling part is the rough movement from the poor machining/material choice which causes scratching and wear on the surface of the ball. If I can cause those scratches from moving it with my hand just a few times, imagine the beating that ball is taking from 1000's of KMs of driving. As soon as I unboxed my Raybestos joints and felt the movement, I took them back so that I could buy the proper OEM part instead.

So no actual scientific tests, just personal observations.

Im not trying to piss in your cheerios, at all. It just appears to me the negative press ALL non oem BJ's get is based on speculation. Obviously if you were seeing scratches in the socket, thats an issue. But grading the quality of the steel by "looking" at it is not a fair comparison. There are so many various types of alloys that vary in color and appearance, unless you know what you are looking at....

For conversations sake... I did the same thing to my RB BJ's and I noticed no scratches in the socket. I also re-greased them, pushing out all the grease that came in them from the factory.

Same thing with the rubber boot. Far to many variables in the make up of the rubber to judge it by a visual. I have heard of recurring issues with the rubber boots on the MOOG joint.

I guess, for me, it simply comes down to there isn't enough concrete evidence that there is no other viable option but OE. The argument is made the the OE joints make it to 100,000, 150,000 etc. But I am sure there is the oddball failure at 40,000 once in a while. Problem is, they would have happened what.... 10 years ago? Quite a few of owners today are 2nd,3rd,4th owners so tracking that history down is not easy.

 

[Greg_Canada]

Knock on wood, my truck (DD) is at 246,000 miles on original LBJ's... i think it's mostly random that these things go out. Likely have to do with lift and driving style.

 

[chadsy]

Knock on wood, my truck (DD) is at 246,000 miles on original LBJ's... i think it's mostly random that these things go out. Likely have to do with lift and driving style.

I changed mine at 275 and I was able to move the ball/socket joint with 1 finger. I could tell it likely didn't have very much longer to go.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Knock on wood, my truck (DD) is at 246,000 miles on original LBJ's... i think it's mostly random that these things go out. Likely have to do with lift and driving style.

Why would you believe it is random vs old age / wear & tear?

I mean really dude .... Don't you acknowledge that rubber degrades over time?

Please elaborate.

 

[nevada]

Why would you believe it is random vs old age / wear & tear?

I mean really dude .... Don't you acknowledge that rubber degrades over time?

Please elaborate.

you've mentioned this a few times, what rubber are you talking about?

 

[BrianSD_42]

My understanding based on reading T4R, looking at my own old LBJs (I did not take apart) and viewing diagrams is that:

Over time the non metal components of the ball joint degrade and eventually fail. The steel casing never snaps or anything like that, it is always the joint.

 

[Greg_Canada]

Why would you believe it is random vs old age / wear & tear?

I mean really dude .... Don't you acknowledge that rubber degrades over time?

Please elaborate.

Balljoints are made of steel.

My rubber dust seals are still in good shape.

Based on when they go out, 50k, 100k, 150k, 250k +... that is a huge difference in #'s, making me call them out as "random". It's not like the strawberry milkshake where they all tend to go between 150-200k.

 

[Greg_Canada]

I changed mine at 275 and I was able to move the ball/socket joint with 1 finger. I could tell it likely didn't have very much longer to go.

I'll probably do them after the winter... too much to do this fall... but honestly i don't know how much longer i'm going to keep the truck as it keeps rusting and isn't really worth repairing (i can buy a low miles rust free one for 6k if i wanted)

 

[BrianSD_42]

I'm going to have to let others chime in here.

I didn't think "the steel" was whats failing.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Here is another recent MOOG development ....


:doh:

x-post link here:

Link ---> http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/154371-lbj-failure-my-turn.html

Another MOOG LBJ failure just reported 11/08/13 on T4R. This one had only 8,000 miles on it since replacement.

Luckily no-one was killed.

FYI

 

[JayRolla]

I'm going to have to let others chime in here.

I didn't think "the steel" was whats failing.

The joint is where it fails. The casting never breaks if thats what there saying.

 

[Robb235]

FYI... I've seen several posts stating that LBJ failures seem to happen only to those with lifts, bigger tires, etc. A lady who works at my dad's office has a '97 4Runner that is stock, and her LBJ failed. I'll post pics in a second.

 

[Robb235]

 

[cj80cruiser]

What kind of coil is that? Ironman is the only one I know of that is yellow. OME is black unless the older versions were yellow.

 

[Yoter]

Its a performance products coil, I think they were 1.5in or 2 inch lift springs.
Unfortunately they are no longer made.
But yes there have been reports of stock 4runners having failed LBJ's

 

[nissanh]

Don't buy 555 suspension parts. They wear out in few months.

I have Movotech ball joints.. (big mistake)... and after reading all this, I feel like replacing those with OEM. Just called TOYOTA of Dallas and they have OEM for $108 each + tax.
I got a 5000 mile trip coming up in this December!!!

The item number 13 RIGHT and LEFT in the following link?
http://parts.camelbacktoyota.com/pa...cleid=68844&diagram=F809182&diagramCallOut=13

Thanks

 

[opie74]

Don't buy 555 suspension parts. They wear out in few months.

Thanks

I put 555 LBJ's in mine around spring time 2012. About 11,000 miles and still going strong. I suppose its just that they haven't failed yet, but its certainly been more than a few months.

 

[nissanh]

555

I put 555 LBJ's in mine around spring time 2012. About 11,000 miles and still going strong. I suppose its just that they haven't failed yet, but its certainly been more than a few months.

I've seen those and they fail pretty fast. Don't play with the front lower ball joints... go with OEM. I am doing it this month.
Thanks

 

[opie74]

I've seen those and they fail pretty fast. Don't play with the front lower ball joints... go with OEM. I am doing it this month.
Thanks

Whats "pretty fast?"