Unique starting issue

[4robert]

1986 4runner 22re standard trans.

After reading the other posts on "Starting issues" it still seems that this one is somewhat unique...

At first I thought there was a battery issue, because I'd have to jump-start her every so often, so I and replaced it about a month or two ago. After getting the new battery, and cleaning terminals (cold crank 625 but temperature never seemed to matter when having the issue), she fired right up every time for a good 3 weeks, however,shortly after it would sometimes have a slight delay between my turning of the key to start, and the firing of the car.

After getting this slight delay in starting, like clockwork, the next attempt to start (either later that day, or the next day) it would provide nothing but a single "click" and an electrical "hum" sound and the engine would not budge....(which was the initial problem/symptom that lead me to think battery problem).

there wasn't any "free wheeling" or anything, just one click (relays sound fine and appear to be operating). But, I had full power to the lights and radio, etc.

I've basically ruled out the alternator because the car travels on several daily trips that would be long enough to drain a battery due to a faulty alternator. Also, the strength of the current to the electrical components lets me know the battery should be charged when putting the key in when the car is cold and it's having this issue.

After getting the "click, hum" experience, I would pop the hood, ensure that my connections were tight, and wiggle the wires that lead to the terminal/starter and every now and again that would fix the problem with 1-3 more key turns, for that particular start..

so it lead me to think ah-ha! bad connection!

(but this tactic didn't work every time)

In some cases, it would have a split-second "jump" like it wanted to start when turning the key, followed by nothing but the "hum"

Well, then it would require a jump-start. After putting cables on, it would have a slight struggle with a full chugging strength to turn her over (possible flooding from multiple key turn attempts), but the jump-start works every time.

So my question is this.. can my starter be just weak enough at times that a jump-start gives it the extra boost it needs to fire my vehicle? or would a starter not respond strictly to a jump-start?

(The hitting of the starter with a wrench or hammer while turning key doesn't work)

The strange part is, that after a jump-start, it'll fire beautifully for another 15-20 starts, regardless of temp/weather, then it'll delay in key turn to fire, and start all over again..

I tried to test and see if there is something draining the battery by performing an arc test on the positive battery post, and all I heard was the slightest little pop (similar to a small static shock) but didn't seem to be enough to drain a battery.. if that isn't it, then I feel that its got to be a bad connection, or starter.

p.s.
new battery 2 months old, tops.
had the injectors cleaned and new fuel tank w/in the last year.
ignition switch some 10/12 yrs back
rebuilt engine, but this is recent issue in comparison to rebuild time frame.

Thanks for any ideas! I dont want to start replacing unnecessary parts to zero in on a small issue.

 

[KidVermicious]

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/class...x-intermittent-no-crank-22re.html#post1117438

There's a sticky up top with lots of helpful links, including this one. Welcome to the forum!

 

[crutchy]

Had this problem on my last runnner (22re/5spd). Replaced starter, battery, cables...sanity. Here was my solution
Painless Performance: Hot Shot Kit

I ordered mine through summit racing, IIRC.

 

[4robert]

Hey thanks yall, this describes the exact issue, but mine does have a starter relay (stock).

Are you suggesting that i could I replace the stock with an aftermarket relay and not have to mess with the new wiring?

Or is the new wiring and separate relay mount absolutely necessary?

 

[crutchy]

This kit doesn't replace the stock relay, it eases the burden on it. Stock it has to supply the full amperage to turn the engine over. After years of duty these relays can often no longer allow the draw needed to turn over the engine. This kit has the stock relay provide a very small amount of power to the new relay (in the kit) and that relay handles the power from the battery to the starter. When you want to start the engine, stock relay triggers this relay which handles the draw easier. Hope that clears it up.

 

[4robert]

yes it does. Thank You.

One last question: considering this is the EXACT issue as described in the KidVermicious post, do you think this should be my first point of action?

 

[KidVermicious]

yes it does. Thank You.

One last question: considering this is the EXACT issue as described in the KidVermicious post, do you think this should be my first point of action?

I would rig a jumper wire on your starter solenoid, long enough to reach your positive battery terminal, and then stash it somewhere safe. When you get a nostart, leave the key in the on position (and the truck in neutral/park) and jump that wire straight between the solenoid and the + battery terminal. If that fires it up every time, then yeah, another relay is for you.

 

[crutchy]

Provided you have checked and your starter is good I would do it. However, I would check all the cables and your grounds at the same time.

 

[fourwd1]

This kit doesn't replace the stock relay, it eases the burden on it. Stock it has to supply the full amperage to turn the engine over. After years of duty these relays can often no longer allow the draw needed to turn over the engine. This kit has the stock relay provide a very small amount of power to the new relay (in the kit) and that relay handles the power from the battery to the starter. When you want to start the engine, stock relay triggers this relay which handles the draw easier. Hope that clears it up.

Just to be clear, a relay does not regulate the amount of power drawn thru it.
A relay is simply a remotely controlled switch, either Off or On.
The load connected to it draws whatever current it requires.

A relay has 2 failure modes -
1) the coil goes open, and it becomes totally inoperable
b) the contacts become pitted, or much worse (and rare) totally weld together.

Then you simply replace it.

Adding a second relay circuit won't hurt anything won't hurt anything, assuming it's done correctly, it just may not be necessary.


You definetly want to check the starter.

 

[crutchy]

I didn't say it regulated the power through it (the relay). I was explaining the Painless wiring kit that I put a hyperlink of in my reply. The Painless kit is exactly what I said it was, a relay between the starter and the battery.

Sneaking in there and editing your post...lol

 

[4robert]

will using the jumper wire destroy/disturb any other electrical components (specifically my heart)?

 

[haywire91]

How about just rebuilding your starter. That is a cheap thing to do and a great learning experience. Personally to me it sounds like a starter issue, but like you've said, that's not the only thing it could be.

 

[KidVermicious]

will using the jumper wire destroy/disturb any other electrical components (specifically my heart)?

Not unless you swallow a tube of dielectric paste and stand barefoot in a puddle . No, you won't be in any danger. Electricity follows the path of least resistance to ground, and you provide much more resistance than the circuit between your battery and the starter. I had one of these rigged up for nearly a year while I chased my own trouble, and started my truck this way several times a week - no shockage .

 

[YotaDan]

From your description, I would say that there is a 90% chance that the solenoid contacts are going bad. If you do the work yourself, it will cost you about $5 for the two contacts. Hardest parts is taking out the starter. Replacing the contacts is pretty easy. If it is the factory toyota starter, then this fix will make it good for another 100,000mi probably.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I'm going to lean on the solenoid contacts also. I mean go ahead and replace the relay if you have an extra one lying about, couldn't hurt. The solenoid itself is actually just a giant relay.

I've actually rebuilt the solenoid on a slightly more modern unit, but they get worn out and sometimes they get sticky. Either too much carbon builds up and they can't transfer enough voltage to the starter motor or they have been eaten away by repeated arcing that the gap is too much and once again cannot get enough voltage to the starter motor. Sometimes the plunger gets sticky and will actually "click" but won't move over all the way or what not.

Should be easy enough to remove the starter, take apart the solenoid and see if it needs to be rebuilt. Its something like $5-10 for factory replacement terminals and bits and will keep your starter going strong for a while longer.

 

[4robert]

Ok, even though I felt the starter was a bit too intermittent for such a long span, it seemed the best option to begin the process was to replace the starter. After firing it up the first time, it was obvious that my issue was solved. after multiple starts throughout the past day, she's started better than ever, and with barely touching the ignition.

However, it is a testament to Toyota products, because this was the original starter 26 yrs and 291,XXX miles later... Anyway, I have acquired some useful knowledge for potential starting issues concerning the relay assistance, as I'd likely never known about the option. It is a pleasure having this site at ones fingertips, and I will try to contribute as best I can.

Peace! Yotas Unite!