ARK_SWAMP_RIDER
New member
Hmmm, that would make sense for the difference. I seen your post on 120, hopefully Mark or Andries will chime in and clear it up.
Upper Control Arm safety concern
- Thread starter jdkilroy
- Start date
Hmmm, that would make sense for the difference. I seen your post on 120, hopefully Mark or Andries will chime in and clear it up.
mattleegee
New member
sub.
JustSomeName
New member
I had the same problem, installed the LR UCAs in August, when I was randomly checking the tire pressure on my tires a few weeks ago, I noticed there was quite a bit of play on the passenger side.
I just tightened it again and will make a conscious effort to check on it every once in a while to make sure they're not loose again.
I just tightened it again and will make a conscious effort to check on it every once in a while to make sure they're not loose again.
CrimsonCountry
New member
Hmmm...perhaps there is an issue with the LRs. Hopefully these are isolated incidences and aren't widespread. Especially since I just installed mine last month. :biggrin2::ybrick:
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Right, I thought you were some where around that height. I agree that you are probably near the top of the recommended range, but I imagine you are well below the "danger zone" as many (including myself) run their C/Os around that amount and still have enough downtravel for comfortable driving. I have heard several reports of the Radflo clunk and am curious as to the exact cause.
Very interesting. I actually talked to Radflo on the phone back when I was trying to decide b/w the 600, 650, and 700# Radflos and was told that as long as there was no coil binding, the coilovers themselves were fine (just not "advised"). The main drawbacks being on the other suspension components (little to no travel, harsh ride, extreme wear/tear, etc.). I would be curious to see what the pros have to say on this.
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superman3043
Senior Member
My Experiment
So I'd like to update this with what's going on with my situation. To recap, I discovered my missing nut & washer Saturday and ordered parts online that day. Because of the holiday my parts were delayed. The washers showed up last night, but the nut won't be her till tomorrow (Friday). So I've been driving without a nut on there and monitoring the creep... dangerous I know.
Over about 150 mi period of easy regular driving, the bolt has backed out about 3/8" or around 1/8" for every 50 miles driven.
This causes me to wonder how long mine was missing before I caught it, because if it's creeping at that radical of a rate, then it couldn't have been like that long, because when I came across the issue it looked like this:
So I thought back to last Thursday when I left a buddy's house and immediately after pulling out of his neighborhood, started to hear a speed sensitive, thump, thump, thump coming from that wheel well. Pulled over to investigate in the dark and rain and saw that my splash shield was hanging down. Pushed it back and proceeded to drive and thought nothing of it. So [MENTION=77955]jdkilroy[/MENTION] brought this issue to my attention which at the time seemed off topic, but it got me worried and since I needed to do the splash shield repair, it was a good chance to check it out anyway. That's when I discovered the missing nut. Also, when performing the splash shield repair, it became apparent to me that the splash shield itself, just from the sheer flimsiness of it, was not enough to create the thump that I heard. So my theory is that I lost the nut then, and the weight of that hardware and the splash shield was what I heard. If that was the case, I drove the entire mountain trip, which was about 300 miles of total driving, without this nut. I'd say the amount of creep I saw would support this. So again, thank you Jon! Otherwise who knows if I'd have caught this before it became catastrophic. We're supposed to wheel this weekend to boot.
So after a lot of research and calling and shopping around, I came up with some info that could prove helpful to anybody that's dealing with this issue. The thread in question is M14x1.5. I don't know if any dealerships will have this part in stock. My local one certainly did not. The Toyota P/N for the nut is 90179-14062 which was replaced by 90080-17208. Either should work in a parts look up. I checked Advance, Autozone, Lowes, Home Depot, Fastenal, and even my local fastener specialists Action Bolt, who normally has everything odd I'm looking for. None of them had anything. But I also stumbled across info that this thread size and pitch is used in lug (wheel studs) and nut applications.... Bingo! So I went to Pep Boys during lunch today and low and behold not only can you buy packs (in a variety of sizes ranging from 4 ea and up) of lug nuts in 14X1.5, but if you go into their fastener bins you can buy them individually in all different configurations. Got these puppies for $2.49 a piece, which is about what I payed for the Toyota nut, and they fit great:
Hopefully this info can serve useful to somebody in a pinch. If it helps anybody, then good. As far as I know SPC/Light Racing has yet to respond to the inquiry, but my guess is that they'll just add a line to the installation instructions stating "re-torque nuts to spec after such and such" and they're covered.
Moral of the story: Gentlemen, check your nuts... frequently.
And yes, I know I need to clip my zip ties :flipoff:
So I'd like to update this with what's going on with my situation. To recap, I discovered my missing nut & washer Saturday and ordered parts online that day. Because of the holiday my parts were delayed. The washers showed up last night, but the nut won't be her till tomorrow (Friday). So I've been driving without a nut on there and monitoring the creep... dangerous I know.
Over about 150 mi period of easy regular driving, the bolt has backed out about 3/8" or around 1/8" for every 50 miles driven.
This causes me to wonder how long mine was missing before I caught it, because if it's creeping at that radical of a rate, then it couldn't have been like that long, because when I came across the issue it looked like this:
So I thought back to last Thursday when I left a buddy's house and immediately after pulling out of his neighborhood, started to hear a speed sensitive, thump, thump, thump coming from that wheel well. Pulled over to investigate in the dark and rain and saw that my splash shield was hanging down. Pushed it back and proceeded to drive and thought nothing of it. So [MENTION=77955]jdkilroy[/MENTION] brought this issue to my attention which at the time seemed off topic, but it got me worried and since I needed to do the splash shield repair, it was a good chance to check it out anyway. That's when I discovered the missing nut. Also, when performing the splash shield repair, it became apparent to me that the splash shield itself, just from the sheer flimsiness of it, was not enough to create the thump that I heard. So my theory is that I lost the nut then, and the weight of that hardware and the splash shield was what I heard. If that was the case, I drove the entire mountain trip, which was about 300 miles of total driving, without this nut. I'd say the amount of creep I saw would support this. So again, thank you Jon! Otherwise who knows if I'd have caught this before it became catastrophic. We're supposed to wheel this weekend to boot.
So after a lot of research and calling and shopping around, I came up with some info that could prove helpful to anybody that's dealing with this issue. The thread in question is M14x1.5. I don't know if any dealerships will have this part in stock. My local one certainly did not. The Toyota P/N for the nut is 90179-14062 which was replaced by 90080-17208. Either should work in a parts look up. I checked Advance, Autozone, Lowes, Home Depot, Fastenal, and even my local fastener specialists Action Bolt, who normally has everything odd I'm looking for. None of them had anything. But I also stumbled across info that this thread size and pitch is used in lug (wheel studs) and nut applications.... Bingo! So I went to Pep Boys during lunch today and low and behold not only can you buy packs (in a variety of sizes ranging from 4 ea and up) of lug nuts in 14X1.5, but if you go into their fastener bins you can buy them individually in all different configurations. Got these puppies for $2.49 a piece, which is about what I payed for the Toyota nut, and they fit great:
Hopefully this info can serve useful to somebody in a pinch. If it helps anybody, then good. As far as I know SPC/Light Racing has yet to respond to the inquiry, but my guess is that they'll just add a line to the installation instructions stating "re-torque nuts to spec after such and such" and they're covered.
Moral of the story: Gentlemen, check your nuts... frequently.
And yes, I know I need to clip my zip ties :flipoff:
Darklight
New member
Those are the 2.0's diameter shock body and they can be adjusted to 2.5" of thread showing while the 2.5' diameter shocks up to 1" of thread showing. This is for various reasons like limits of your cv's, prevent the shocks from over extending and ride quaility.
I saw the pictures of yours so that's one more person, lol.
Most aftermarket UCA's reuse that long stock bolt and nut. The thing is to make sure that the bolt/nut is trq down properly 85 lbs and to recheck after about 500 miles or so. I recheck mine every now and then just as maintenance.
Did you trq them down properly upon install?
Yep 2.5" of thread fo rthe 2.0's
That's great PD! That should help for now!
aha2988
New member
you an ur damn torque specs lol learn to feel the power of the wrench hahaha jk buddy
jdkilroy
New member
First: yes, I have a very nice torque wrench and they were torqued to the specified 85 lbs. Additionally, i went back over everything in the front suspension after a coupe hundred miles and then again after a wheeling trip where there was a bit of squeaking coming from the front end. At those times; all was OK. I found the loose nuts on a subsequent inspection after changing out my tires to 33's. that's when I decided to install the lock nuts.
jdkilroy
New member
Response from SPC
My note to SPC:
Dear SPC:
I replaced my upper control arm with a Light Racing UCA last Spring (2012). I am fairly experienced mechanically and reassembled according to spec. What some of us who have switched to the LR UCA have noticed is that the nuts on the main bolt that the UCA pivots on are loosening and backing off. I have started a thread on T4R.org (http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/133663-upper-control-arm-safety-concern.html#post1280638) to explore the problem. Are you guys aware of any issues concerning this problem or any assembly practices that may not be getting done ?
Thanks for any input.
Regards, Jon Kilroy
SPC replies:
Greetings Jon!
Thanks for writing to us, and for linking your forum post as well. I see from the picture that your arms have our previous OEM-style rubber bushings. For that style bushing, your inquiry is the first time I’ve heard of the bolts loosening after proper installation. I say proper because there were some instances of installers putting the factory washers on backwards, which did cause squeaking and occasionally loosening of the nut. Looking at your pictures though, you have the washers installed correctly as far as I can tell. (Dish of factory washer should be AWAY from the bushing.) This is exactly the same as the factory layout, and there should not have been any issue. To prevent further loosening, your two nut approach should work fine, as would a little Locktite.
Since some of the later posts in your thread refer to concerns with our more recent product, I’d like to continue… In the past few months, we have had a few reports of the arm retaining nut coming loose on vehicles running the new SpecRide bushings. Also, as the “120” link in your thread indicates, we have had to replace three arms now due to broken bushing rings. We believe that failures (both the nut back-off and broken bushing rings) have been caused by over-constrained bushings. Meaning, the bushing isn’t properly rotating on the inner sleeve as intended. Since the majority of our customers are not having any problems at all, we’re hoping it is something aggravated by techs or customers that weren’t greasing the outsides of the bushing, or were greasing them very lightly. We continue to work through opportunities to make our arms bomb proof, install error proof, and build variation proof under all normal and adverse conditions.
To this end, we have revised the washer arrangement to eliminate the inboard large washers on the 25470/80 arms, which has been working well on our 25460 arms, as well as our previous versions of all kits. There have been no reports of loosening on 25470/80 arms that have been installed with the new arrangement. We have free update kits available (P/N 25478) for customers wishing to make the change, and we sent notices to all of our distributors alerting them to the availability of the kits. The update kit includes four smaller diameter washers to replace the large inner washers that shipped in early kits, and an extra grease packet to ensure that everything is properly greased. We can also send replacement locking nuts to any persons in need. It is not necessary to get an alignment after performing the update or replacing a missing nut and washers.
I’ll stress again that the issue of loosening nuts seems to be the exception rather than the norm. We accumulated tens of thousands of miles on local test vehicles before releasing these bushings, all with no reported issues. As always, if you or any of our customers have questions or are experiencing problems, they are encouraged to call our Tech Line at 1-800-525-6505.
(Please feel free to post this response to your thread, as we are not a current sponsor of the Toyota 4-runner.org forum, and so cannot make posts directly.)
Thanks!
Chris Hinds
Senior Mechanical Engineer
Specialty Products Company
1-800-525-6505
My note to SPC:
Dear SPC:
I replaced my upper control arm with a Light Racing UCA last Spring (2012). I am fairly experienced mechanically and reassembled according to spec. What some of us who have switched to the LR UCA have noticed is that the nuts on the main bolt that the UCA pivots on are loosening and backing off. I have started a thread on T4R.org (http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/133663-upper-control-arm-safety-concern.html#post1280638) to explore the problem. Are you guys aware of any issues concerning this problem or any assembly practices that may not be getting done ?
Thanks for any input.
Regards, Jon Kilroy
SPC replies:
Greetings Jon!
Thanks for writing to us, and for linking your forum post as well. I see from the picture that your arms have our previous OEM-style rubber bushings. For that style bushing, your inquiry is the first time I’ve heard of the bolts loosening after proper installation. I say proper because there were some instances of installers putting the factory washers on backwards, which did cause squeaking and occasionally loosening of the nut. Looking at your pictures though, you have the washers installed correctly as far as I can tell. (Dish of factory washer should be AWAY from the bushing.) This is exactly the same as the factory layout, and there should not have been any issue. To prevent further loosening, your two nut approach should work fine, as would a little Locktite.
Since some of the later posts in your thread refer to concerns with our more recent product, I’d like to continue… In the past few months, we have had a few reports of the arm retaining nut coming loose on vehicles running the new SpecRide bushings. Also, as the “120” link in your thread indicates, we have had to replace three arms now due to broken bushing rings. We believe that failures (both the nut back-off and broken bushing rings) have been caused by over-constrained bushings. Meaning, the bushing isn’t properly rotating on the inner sleeve as intended. Since the majority of our customers are not having any problems at all, we’re hoping it is something aggravated by techs or customers that weren’t greasing the outsides of the bushing, or were greasing them very lightly. We continue to work through opportunities to make our arms bomb proof, install error proof, and build variation proof under all normal and adverse conditions.
To this end, we have revised the washer arrangement to eliminate the inboard large washers on the 25470/80 arms, which has been working well on our 25460 arms, as well as our previous versions of all kits. There have been no reports of loosening on 25470/80 arms that have been installed with the new arrangement. We have free update kits available (P/N 25478) for customers wishing to make the change, and we sent notices to all of our distributors alerting them to the availability of the kits. The update kit includes four smaller diameter washers to replace the large inner washers that shipped in early kits, and an extra grease packet to ensure that everything is properly greased. We can also send replacement locking nuts to any persons in need. It is not necessary to get an alignment after performing the update or replacing a missing nut and washers.
I’ll stress again that the issue of loosening nuts seems to be the exception rather than the norm. We accumulated tens of thousands of miles on local test vehicles before releasing these bushings, all with no reported issues. As always, if you or any of our customers have questions or are experiencing problems, they are encouraged to call our Tech Line at 1-800-525-6505.
(Please feel free to post this response to your thread, as we are not a current sponsor of the Toyota 4-runner.org forum, and so cannot make posts directly.)
Thanks!
Chris Hinds
Senior Mechanical Engineer
Specialty Products Company
1-800-525-6505
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superman3043
Senior Member
Darklight
New member
Just trying to save everyone a little future grief or you can learn the hard way. did that befor to,lol.
Darklight
New member
I just wanted to verify that they were trqd properly. These uca'see alot of movement and travel while on the trail. I really like your idea of using the nyloc nut to the end of the bolt
martini
New member
[MENTION=68704]superman3043[/MENTION] looks like you have the new style bushing which I know say not to re-use the stock washers, and I'm not sure if you are supposed to reuse the stock nut or not on the long bolt. I have the older style bushing which the instructions say to use the factory washers plus the new ones supplied. I also used the stock nut and mine hasn't budged one bit in almost a year (even checking the torque).
I wonder if those seeing this issue all have the new bushing style. Here's the old one: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/117359-light-racing-ucas-2.html#post1164363.
I wonder if those seeing this issue all have the new bushing style. Here's the old one: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/117359-light-racing-ucas-2.html#post1164363.
superman3043
Senior Member
Yeah, I eluded to the issue pointing to the bushing design at first, but then I debunked that theory when I saw jdkilroys because his looks like the old style. It was mentioned early in this thread I thought, but it could have been on my build thread.
With the new style, they supply you with all the washers, but not a new nut, so you re-use the stock one.
Darklight
New member
Bobby the "torque police"
How much torque do DEEZ NUTZ need? hahahahaha
I don't think my trq wrench will fit, lol.
:rofl:
aha2988
New member
you dont have a 1/8" socket? lmao!!!!
superman3043
Senior Member
shiiiiit... better be packing the 1" drive buddy!!!
martini
New member
My fault missed that, I can see in the first image it is the old style.
jdkilroy
New member
SPC repliy
So the last post on page 2 now contains my note to SPC and their reply; not sounding like a common problem at this point but there seems to be a focus here.
Hopefully, if there are more who have had this problem, they will show up here and we can see if a pattern develops.
Bottom line, check your running gear on a regular basis.
So the last post on page 2 now contains my note to SPC and their reply; not sounding like a common problem at this point but there seems to be a focus here.
Hopefully, if there are more who have had this problem, they will show up here and we can see if a pattern develops.
Bottom line, check your running gear on a regular basis.
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