V8 Still Pinging...

[TONEDOG513]

Hi all..

Its been a while and figured I'd throw out a line to see if anyone out there has made any progress on the "pinging" front?

2007 V8 Limited now 105k

Rattles between shifts on hard acceleration

Rattles up hills or on general load scenario

Less in the winter but definitely prominent

and the best..

up hill, with trailer, in a heat wave, with the a/c on! lol :frusty:



fyi

Timing belt at 95k (it looked brand new)
I changed plugs at 100k, they looked really good.
Mobil 1 for about 80k now
Run 93 Octane for about 90k (every once and a while I'll do a tank of 87 but the loss of power is huge = yuk!) (oh from different stations)

No Performance mods

 

[Stuck CAPS]

I assume youve ruled out a cracked exhaust manifold already, as you haven't gotten an answer yet, but based on your symptoms, it doesn't seem that way, as it gets better in the cold. It would strongly help if you could record a sound clip of some sort of this "pinging". Based on what you have said it sounds like an issue with the transmission when under load. Go search for "rumble strip tranny" on here, and read through it. I think this could be the beginnings of it. I'd also say, check the belts (cant hurt to cover your bases). Try plugging an OBDII scanner to the ECM, seeing if it says anything. If nothing from these, pull the intake assembly off, and thoroughly check the exhaust manifold. Finally, if all else fails, pull the head, checking the connecting rods, the cam shafts, etc. You may be developing a rod knock, or have improper cam alignment.

Edit: also check to make sure that the fan isn't hitting anything.

Edit2: after a bit more thought, it could be detonation, also known as a "spark knock." You said your timing belt was replaced. Did it occur after? Timing may be off. You could have bad fuel runnin through it. The intake may be pulling in way too hot of air, the engine may run too hot, etc. Theres a lot that could cause it. Be sure to cover your bases.

 

[fullboogie]

Get a tank of 93 and see if it still does it. That'll tell you if its detonation or not.

 

[HiLife]

I agree with Stuck Caps on his assessment. Try to get a diagnosing tree and just through it step by step so you don't miss anything by jumping all over the place on diagnosing.

I was thinking of large amounts of carbon buildup in the combustion area causing higher than normal compression ratio. Thus causing the motor to ping. But on second thought this scenario is highly unlikely due to your mileage and good maintenance practice.

 

[Stuck CAPS]

Get a tank of 93 and see if it still does it. That'll tell you if its detonation or not.

That's not true. Too low of octane for the compression ratio of the engine is ONE cause of detonation. There are TONS more.

 

[HiLife]

Maybe bad knock sensor?

 

[DiskDoctr]

If you pull the serpentine belt, you can check each pulley for wobble and stiff bearings.

I've seen more than one vehicle of different types with a bad idler pulley or tension pulley causing the spring loaded tensioner to bounce. Sounds just like a knock.

Long shot, but simple to do...and FREE!

 

[fullboogie]

That's not true. Too low of octane for the compression ratio of the engine is ONE cause of detonation. There are TONS more.

You didn't read my post. I did not say too low of an octane rating will cause detonation. I said that 93 octane should tell you whether it is detonation - as opposed to exhaust leaks and other possibilities as mentioned above.

 

[MikeInNH]

Did this occur right after the timing belt? If so then the belt may be off one tooth.

Knock Sensor is probably the most likely.

 

[Stuck CAPS]

You didn't read my post. I did not say too low of an octane rating will cause detonation. I said that 93 octane should tell you whether it is detonation - as opposed to exhaust leaks and other possibilities as mentioned above.

What I said still applies. The fuel system is one cause of detonation. As in, it most likely isn't. My guess is lying with the Timing belt, still.

 

[TONEDOG513]

Wow! thanks for all the quick responses...

i''l try to answer the questions...

Stuck Caps...

- Had the exhaust manifold checked, but never fully removed to look for those deep cracks. (on a scale 1-10 if theirs a crack it will detonate?)

- It is less pronounced in the cold weather (but a good hard acceleration after its been running for a while it will ping in 10 degree weather, just seems the duration is shorter) more like a brrrp.. than a rattle rattle..

- did a search for rumble strip tranny and that seems more vibration related, i am hearing pinging/detonation for sure, my second guess would valves but they are different as they quiet down with load and don't keep rattling up the hill, with the trailer, in the summer ect ect.. i had a 1990 Acura Legend, u wanna talk valve noises!

-OBDII is clean, never had a light or a code. I have the Garmin with the Bluetooth obdII accessory that gives me all the codes and tons of data like intake temp, tranny temps ect..

-I can rule out the timing belt only because this has been happening since 2010 @ around 53k miles, do a search on me and you will see my original post on it, with lots of responses.

Fullboogie...

- I always run 93, different brands, only every once and a while i will run a couple tanks of 87 to really upset me. I am running a tank of 87 BP now and i can say in 30 degree weather the amount of ping between a tank of 93 and a tank of 87 is the same really, except that the loss in power with the 87 is significant.

Hilife...

- I have always been curious about the carbon buildup thing. My driving habits and location may play a role in weather you think i might have have some.

1. I live in NYC area, lots of stop and go. lots of short trips
2. For work I visit clients all over the 5 boroughs and make many trips in the truck all day long, some short as 5 mins, some as long as 45min.
3. I'd say i get in and out, start and shut the motor on average 7-10 times a day.
4. i have bad luck and get caught in traffic all the time

Although I do a lot of maintenance and lean to a more severe duty regimen when it comes to frequency. I'm not sure i shouldn't just see foam it. I do change the Mobil 1 every 4500 miles like clockwork and filter. tranny every 30, diffs, transfer, plugs every 60k. plugs look nice. btw.

- Knock sensor has not been tested, only because everyone says it would trow a code or even the light.

DiskDoctr...

- I had the all the pulleys changed at 90k

MikeinNH...

- No it didn't happen after timing belt.

*Something that's bothering me lately is trying to narrow down when it really started, I think it was close to when I switched to the Mobil 1 and changed the plugs.

Could it be the Mobil 1?

*I know Toyota is very specific on the V8 Plug type, but could a "cooler" plug help or even be used? Maybe a gap issue, the Haynes says not to gap the iridium's and the Toyota says .43 for all cylinders.

* Maybe there are 2 separate problems.

1. a valve rattle that occurs during hard acceleration for a just a moment as the load is released when the gears are shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd. (this would be the brrp rattle between shifts)

2. a detonation when heat and load are really a factor, like the summer up hill with trailer scenario. (this would be the constant rattle until up the hill)

or maybe i'm just going crazy! :der:

 

[HiLife]

This might be a long shot but thinking way back I this same issue with a non Toyota car.

Can you double check the flex plate and torque converter bolts?
The car with the issue had a cracked flex plate which in turn loosened the converter bolts. It made the same pinging sound as you described.

Try Googling it.

 

[gm350reratliff]

I would also check any and all heat shields to make sure they are not vibrating or resonating with the engine.

 

[DiskDoctr]

Posted pics

I just posted some pics of the proper alignment of the timing belt marks with the cams and crankshaft from the work we did this weekend.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/maintenance-detailing/163894-lots-overdue-service-items-catching-up-input.html#post1651883

If any of the marks are off by one notch, you can certainly get the problems you are having.

You may be able to turn crankshaft to TDC and loosed the top cam covers enough to use a flashlight to check the belt marks against the TDC marks, then you'll know for sure!

 

[NoWayOut]

I know this isn't the answer but I have an 08 V8 and it runs better on mid grade. Also, run a few tanks of the same grade in a row.

.

 

[DiskDoctr]

Ok, I didn't see your replies, sorry. Still a good idea to check that belt alignment, easy to do and quite critical.

Cooler plugs? It's a common strategy to eliminate pre-detonation in supercharged applications, along with higher octane gas.

Knock/OBD2. If you are using Torque Pro (about $5) with your obd2, there is a free addon "Knock Detector"

I just loaded up TP and haven't tried the addon yet. From the details, it attempt to calculate when knock is most likely to have occurred, based on OBD2 info, not the knock sensor. Don't know if it would be helpful or just smoke?

Here's a similar thread that may or may not be helpful http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/96623-v8-pinging-detonation-hard-accel-whats-cause.html#post1028475

 

[Stuck CAPS]

Wow! thanks for all the quick responses...

i''l try to answer the questions...

Stuck Caps...

- Had the exhaust manifold checked, but never fully removed to look for those deep cracks. (on a scale 1-10 if theirs a crack it will detonate?)

- It is less pronounced in the cold weather (but a good hard acceleration after its been running for a while it will ping in 10 degree weather, just seems the duration is shorter) more like a brrrp.. than a rattle rattle..

- did a search for rumble strip tranny and that seems more vibration related, i am hearing pinging/detonation for sure, my second guess would valves but they are different as they quiet down with load and don't keep rattling up the hill, with the trailer, in the summer ect ect.. i had a 1990 Acura Legend, u wanna talk valve noises!

-OBDII is clean, never had a light or a code. I have the Garmin with the Bluetooth obdII accessory that gives me all the codes and tons of data like intake temp, tranny temps ect..

-I can rule out the timing belt only because this has been happening since 2010 @ around 53k miles, do a search on me and you will see my original post on it, with lots of responses.

Fullboogie...

- I always run 93, different brands, only every once and a while i will run a couple tanks of 87 to really upset me. I am running a tank of 87 BP now and i can say in 30 degree weather the amount of ping between a tank of 93 and a tank of 87 is the same really, except that the loss in power with the 87 is significant.

Hilife...

- I have always been curious about the carbon buildup thing. My driving habits and location may play a role in weather you think i might have have some.

1. I live in NYC area, lots of stop and go. lots of short trips
2. For work I visit clients all over the 5 boroughs and make many trips in the truck all day long, some short as 5 mins, some as long as 45min.
3. I'd say i get in and out, start and shut the motor on average 7-10 times a day.
4. i have bad luck and get caught in traffic all the time

Although I do a lot of maintenance and lean to a more severe duty regimen when it comes to frequency. I'm not sure i shouldn't just see foam it. I do change the Mobil 1 every 4500 miles like clockwork and filter. tranny every 30, diffs, transfer, plugs every 60k. plugs look nice. btw.

- Knock sensor has not been tested, only because everyone says it would trow a code or even the light.

DiskDoctr...

- I had the all the pulleys changed at 90k

MikeinNH...

- No it didn't happen after timing belt.

*Something that's bothering me lately is trying to narrow down when it really started, I think it was close to when I switched to the Mobil 1 and changed the plugs.

Could it be the Mobil 1?

*I know Toyota is very specific on the V8 Plug type, but could a "cooler" plug help or even be used? Maybe a gap issue, the Haynes says not to gap the iridium's and the Toyota says .43 for all cylinders.

* Maybe there are 2 separate problems.

1. a valve rattle that occurs during hard acceleration for a just a moment as the load is released when the gears are shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd. (this would be the brrp rattle between shifts)

2. a detonation when heat and load are really a factor, like the summer up hill with trailer scenario. (this would be the constant rattle until up the hill)

or maybe i'm just going crazy! :der:

In response to the responses to my suggestions: The manifold probably won't cause detonation, but it could be the source of noise. Timing COULD have been off both then and now, though!

In response to my super pronounced bolding, italicizing, and underlining of [MENTION=15213]MikeInNH[/MENTION]'s message: If you're running (significantly, as .000000001* won't make a difference) hotter plugs than stock, swap those. This cold temperature thing is what's bugging me, and making me think it's not exhaust manifold crack. Hotter plugs are good for cold starts and idling. Heavy load is when its at its worse, and it's not as bad in cold weather. I think that could be your problem.
Check this out:

Source. (Wouldn't hurt to read that, either.)

 

[Sungod]

Could be carbon build up from running the unneeded high octane gas for so long.

 

[DiskDoctr]

What plugs did you put in?

Is the problem more prevalent at lower rpms, lugging under heavy loads, then goes away at a certain rpm range?

How is the engine temp/gauge? Does it like to run hot?

Have you had your transmission fluid changed? What about diff's?

Are your brakes hanging up? (extra drag, keeping it in lug down rpms)

When is the last time you changed your air filter? (unbalanced intake vs exhaust)

When towing, how is the shifting? Does it seem like it is too high of a gear? If you manually hit the next gear down and run up to 50%-75% rpms, does it go away?

Does your 07 have that ridiculously restrictive Y in the exhaust where they come together into a single pipe? Mine suffered from mid-rpm laziness until I removed that and put a different exhaust on. It was hard to tow before, hard to make the transition from one gear to the next.

Does your transmission shift smooth and crisp? Or does it have a long slip changing gears?

I have no idea what role VVTi may play with this, if any.

 

[TONEDOG513]

Hilife

Interesting, I googled it but everything I read seems to be more about a vibration regarding the converter bolts. I will add it to my list though to have checked.

Nowayout

I guess a few tanks of mid-grade couldn’t hurt. I’ll try it thx

DiskDoctr post from 3/17 1:16pm

I’ll check the timing belt alignment, however could it have been off from the factory until 90k and then replaced by the dealer incorrectly at 90k? Seems like a long shot.

Nice tip on the torque pro, definitely going to try that w/ add-on

Stuck caps

I feel like long shot on the timing belt being off, but I’m going to check it, I already promised diskdoctr!

I am running dealer installed Toyota plugs that are recommended, they are iridium’s. My question was what would be the effect of putting a “cooler” less aggressive plug in on ping. Revisiting this has brought up another question, how does the gap effect the ping?

Sungod

I think the higher octane is supposed to be cleaner and have less build up than if I ran the 87 all these 100k mile.

Also, now that I’m on my 3rd tank of regular (87), I’m now positive that 93 is not an unneeded octane but a necessary octane for the v8, the loss of power, responsiveness and my happiness is substantial running on the 87, definitely so much so that I’m running the a/c to get this regular out as soon as I can.

Diskdoctr

Plugs are stock Toyota iridium’s
The engine temp has been rock solid since day 1, 196-198 degrees even on the hottest days, and the motor seems to cool very quickly after shutting off.

Yes, Tranny, Diffs, transfer case, done as per the extreme condition intervals

I had the brakes and rotors done 3 months ago everything good, I have had a frozen caliper once before but not this time.

Ha-ha, Air filter, I’m not sure... Definitely a few times since the last 50k of pinging

The shifting when towing seems fine. I keep it in 4 when towing. If I get upset and kick down to a lower gear it does quiet things down a bit.

My exhaust is stock, all these runners have a single exhaust, so I would assume there is a Y where the 2 manifolds come together. Are you saying I should do a dual exhaust?

What is your setup? I never changed the exhaust because 1 it didn’t need it, and 2 I don’t want any more cabin noises than I already have.

The tranny shifts according to how I drive it, I can get aggressive and it shifts crisp, or I can lug around long shifting.

I do get some weird anomaly where it won’t shift down when I think it should of already when going down a steep grades, different than using the engine to brake, because I’m still trying to accelerate. I can make it happen consistently in 2 different places I know.

Thanks to everyone for the responses and the time. :nod: