Volvo XC90

[Thai]

Reliability- Both, you did not specific which aspect of reliability you meant (mechanical or electrical) therefore they both fall equally under the blanket.

Cause loss of life- Both, PCS has the potential to engage erroneously and cause pile-ups due to the random application of brakes and the person behind you plowing into you (unlikely but possible). A full metal bumper has the possibility of increasing damage in an accident against some vehicles, though it could potentially protect you against death as well. So due to your vague criteria... again both.

Cause a rollover- Both again, due to your vague (as always) attempts to generalize. VCS is unstable in slippy/extreme conditions such as Ice and can erratically engage and cause you to lose control more so than without (assuming you have a mild understanding of how to operate your vehicle). A lift raises CoG (Center of Gravity) and this can also induce the possibility of a rollover.

As for the VSC causing more idiotic drivers? Debatable. Causing more spinouts and loss of control in the winter-time? Yeah, that's entirely believable and happens a lot.

If you're going to be a troll or at least try to seem like your the more intelligent one, be more specific in your trolling. Because then I wouldn't have to be a dick to you.

(The CORRECT questions you were looking for you support your argument, instead of your usual vague/baiting drivel)

Which will affect the drivability of your vehicle?

Which has a higher likelyhood of increasing the risk of a fatality in a collision?

Which has the likelyhood of causing a higher risk of rollover?

We know the consequences of lifts. No need to play dumb. Lifts = bad for mechanical and electrical...but i don’t want to spoil something that you already know, right?

Actually, an aftermarket bumper is dangerous for everyone...YOU and the other car. With aftermarket bumper you take away a HUGE part of the crush zone that protects you. Putting more metal does NOT protect you more. True dat!

So, on ice around a corner, you prefer the lift (without VSC) over a vehicle with normal height and VSC? Oh yes, a sliding lifted vehicle hitting a curb is cool beans!

VSC causing spin outs? Ok dude...if you say so. LOL.

Oh no, my points were pretty clear. It is your understanding of them that made them vague. I do love to prove you wrong in your own field though.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Ahhh, now all of a sudden, you know about LIDAR? LOL. Glad to have taught you something.

PCS...isn’t that still a backup system to the human response? Has PCS saved lives? YES. Has it saved lives because people are more idiotic? No. A dumbass will always find a way do bad. A dumbass can over-ride a self-driving car (such as when drunk). Self-driving is not the end all answer to accidents.

BTW, as of now, most self-driving cars in the near future will require driver to put hands on steering wheel. So, good or bad, humans are still in play.

What do you know about my brother? I gave my opinions above, not his. Why the assumptions? That’s just being a dumbass.

Picking fights? Aren’t you the one who keeps on harping the minivan rule...yet don’t follow it? Aren’t you the one who is condescending on anyone who owns a 4x4 and not take it off-road everyday? YET, you admitted that you no longer off-road yourself!

No, just stating facts from your own admissions in past and from IIHS/NHTSA.

I am glad that you feel better talking to me...but you may want to seek professional help or your nearest emergency room. Seriously. You need help.

I never said it was a "rule" I just always maintained I feel that people who want a BoF 4WD because they want to feel "Safe" or "Be able to handle that gravel road to grandma's" are better suited for something like a CUV or minivan. It's a strongly held opinion that I have, but by no means a "rule" like you seem to think.

As for your brother? Well I have only you to deal with on a regular basis so I was making the assumption you two were alike. But if you're not that's great news!

PCS may be a "back-up" system, but humans are stupid things. People will assume that it's more than that, same as the idiots in the Tesla marketing department and the owners who were crashing because they didn't have their hands on the steering wheel in autopilot mode (even though it specifically said not to). That's the part your brain seems to have trouble with and that's ok, you just can't comprehend that because the sign says "stop" that not everyone will actually stop, or even bother reading or noticing the sign.

Again, PCS is good live-saving/damage-reducing technology. It's just the calibration side of it that makes me uneasy, not enough to say recall it all and dump it in the scrap bin (where as I feel more like that for BSM), but enough that I wonder how much of it is going to be an issue going forward as we've already seen issues with it.

See the difference between me and you? I'm fine with being a shitty human being and a waste of space; I'll survive, it's what I do best. You on the otherhand, just have to be better than everyone else... that sounds like a sad existence to me, but hey what do I know? I'm just a depressed drunk.

Post Note-

I'm well aware of LIDAR systems as well as the self-driving tech used in thoe vehicles. But they have little bearing on BSM tech in human-operated vehicles as those use MM-Wave tech. Now if we were talking smart-cruise control, LIDAR might have slipped in.

 

[Thai]

I never said it was a "rule" I just always maintained I feel that people who want a BoF 4WD because they want to feel "Safe" or "Be able to handle that gravel road to grandma's" are better suited for something like a CUV or minivan. It's a strongly held opinion that I have, but by no means a "rule" like you seem to think.

As for your brother? Well I have only you to deal with on a regular basis so I was making the assumption you two were alike. But if you're not that's great news!

PCS may be a "back-up" system, but humans are stupid things. People will assume that it's more than that, same as the idiots in the Tesla marketing department and the owners who were crashing because they didn't have their hands on the steering wheel in autopilot mode (even though it specifically said not to). That's the part your brain seems to have trouble with and that's ok, you just can't comprehend that because the sign says "stop" that not everyone will actually stop, or even bother reading or noticing the sign.

Again, PCS is good live-saving/damage-reducing technology. It's just the calibration side of it that makes me uneasy, not enough to say recall it all and dump it in the scrap bin (where as I feel more like that for BSM), but enough that I wonder how much of it is going to be an issue going forward as we've already seen issues with it.

See the difference between me and you? I'm fine with being a shitty human being and a waste of space; I'll survive, it's what I do best. You on the otherhand, just have to be better than everyone else... that sounds like a sad existence to me, but hey what do I know? I'm just a depressed drunk.

Post Note-

I'm well aware of LIDAR systems as well as the self-driving tech used in thoe vehicles. But they have little bearing on BSM tech in human-operated vehicles as those use MM-Wave tech. Now if we were talking smart-cruise control, LIDAR might have slipped in.

I prefer to deal with facts and reality. But that’s just me.

yeah, ok...i think that what you wrote is pretty significant regarding your mental health.

Have a good night. Hope you go to ER tonight or visit your family doctor tomorrow.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=139703]jwatson[/MENTION] I do apologize for derailing your thread a bit there. I just bored and Thai being the great troll that he is helps pass the time and it's just so easy.

The Volvo XC90 doesn't seem like a great vehicle for reliability. But it may not hurt to look at the Navigator. It's a Ford I know, but they seem to be doing okay; CO Poisoning in the Exploders aside.

 

[lucky7]

Wait, the auto manufacturers are in the weeds again. There will be deals.

I don't like all that electronic crap at all. And yes it does make people worse drivers - technology has that effect. Young kids don't know the difference between understeer vs oversteer, or even what they mean. Perhaps actually learning how to drive isn't a skill we'll need too much longer into the future, but it's an example.

The XC90 has always been a good looking vehicle, and Jeremy Clarkson certainly helped to put the vehicle on my radar, but the newest version looks stunning. Shame there's a lot of kinks to iron out. Is Volvo still owned by Tata?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Wait, the auto manufacturers are in the weeds again. There will be deals.

I don't like all that electronic crap at all. And yes it does make people worse drivers - technology has that effect. Young kids don't know the difference between understeer vs oversteer, or even what they mean. Perhaps actually learning how to drive isn't a skill we'll need too much longer into the future, but it's an example.

The XC90 has always been a good looking vehicle, and Jeremy Clarkson certainly helped to put the vehicle on my radar, but the newest version looks stunning. Shame there's a lot of kinks to iron out. Is Volvo still owned by Tata?

Volvo has just been making some stunning designs as of late, they really have been getting the "image" of the old boxy safety wagon out of people's minds.

Last I checked they are still owned by Tata, which is why I'm not entirely surprised about the teething pains. I think they're still relatively good cars, but as the OP said it may be best to wait a year or two for them to work it the "bugs"

 

[lucky7]

Hope so. I've always liked Volvo, despite never owning one. I never had a Saab, but I was disappointed in that whole thing.

 

[Thai]

Volvo has just been making some stunning designs as of late, they really have been getting the "image" of the old boxy safety wagon out of people's minds.

Last I checked they are still owned by Tata, which is why I'm not entirely surprised about the teething pains. I think they're still relatively good cars, but as the OP said it may be best to wait a year or two for them to work it the "bugs"

When has Volvo not had teething issues, regardless of owner?!

The current design of XC90 is 2-3 years old i believe...and yet still has poor reliability.

 

[Thai]

Wait, the auto manufacturers are in the weeds again. There will be deals.

I don't like all that electronic crap at all. And yes it does make people worse drivers - technology has that effect. Young kids don't know the difference between understeer vs oversteer, or even what they mean. Perhaps actually learning how to drive isn't a skill we'll need too much longer into the future, but it's an example.

The XC90 has always been a good looking vehicle, and Jeremy Clarkson certainly helped to put the vehicle on my radar, but the newest version looks stunning. Shame there's a lot of kinks to iron out. Is Volvo still owned by Tata?

You say that electronic crap makes drivers worst. Proof? Data?

There are plenty of data that electronic safety “nannies” have DECREASE accidents and mortality.

So, while it is easy to ASSUME that things are horrible on the highway these days, it is far harder to come up with facts to back it.

Please don’t follow BlackWorksInc’s argument...his views often time lack any logic or facts behind it.

 

[philsey]

[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] You bored or something? Vacation maybe? Baby duty maybe?

Topic is "XC90", not "let's poke BWI" ... chill man.

 

[lucky7]

You say that electronic crap makes drivers worst. Proof? Data?

There are plenty of data that electronic safety “nannies” have DECREASE accidents and mortality.

So, while it is easy to ASSUME that things are horrible on the highway these days, it is far harder to come up with facts to back it.

Please don’t follow BlackWorksInc’s argument...his views often time lack any logic or facts behind it.

Proof or data? Lol, get in a car with a young person - they have no idea what they're doing.

I never mentioned anything about safety. Everyone knows cars are safer today - that couldn't be more obvious and nobody is arguing against it. Driver-aids make people worse drivers is the argument, and it's absolutely true - Which isn't really a problem when everything is headed toward automation, but to say that tech doesn't reduce competence is really silly. I could probably list examples all day long.

 

[Thai]

Proof or data? Lol, get in a car with a young person - they have no idea what they're doing.

I never mentioned anything about safety. Everyone knows cars are safer today - that couldn't be more obvious and nobody is arguing against it. Driver-aids make people worse drivers is the argument, and it's absolutely true - Which isn't really a problem when everything is headed toward automation, but to say that tech doesn't reduce competence is really silly. I could probably list examples all day long.

Does BSM, PCS, VSC, etc make it safer for a person to drive a car? That’s the question at hand, isn’t it?

Get in a car with an old fart...and see if they are good at driving.

There are bad drivers any decade of human existence since there were cars roaming the streets. The “nannies” have made things much safer on the road...period.

Not sure what examples you can list? Your other sister?

I can only show the facts.

 

[lucky7]

Lol. Maybe one day you'll see the bigger picture.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Does BSM, PCS, VSC, etc make it safer for a person to drive a car? That’s the question at hand, isn’t it?

Get in a car with an old fart...and see if they are good at driving.

There are bad drivers any decade of human existence since there were cars roaming the streets. The “nannies” have made things much safer on the road...period.

Not sure what examples you can list? Your other sister?

I can only show the facts.

That's been the entire point by me and a couple others, BSM does not make a driver safer because it relies on the driver to know how to set their mirrors and check their blindspots (because that's all BSM does is let the driver know they should do what they should be trained to do). The fact that bad drivers exist is nothing new, the increase of bad drivers is a result of newer technology enabling them and a lack of proper education and common sense. This is nothing new, it's been a downward spiral for not just driver education, but US education, and other aspects. It's a continued example of our society shirking self-responsibility and pointing the blame else where, reactionary instead of proactive and more fundamentally responsible.

VSC is a double-edged sword and on that one I am more conflicted. It's got it's benefits, but it's extremely finicky and dangerous in icy and very slippery conditions. Unfortunately you can't actually 100% disable it in most vehicles, so that's where I get rubbed the wrong way with it. But it does help the majority of people out. But in the majority of conditions it does it's job well and helps lesser driver's maintain control (but it should not be a replacement for learning how to properly control your vehicle.)

PCS is a good "damage reducing" system for reducing the probability of fatalities, can't argue with that. My only concern is how very... difficult it is to verify the calibration on the system once it's done. You can't hook up a scantool and go "yup your PCS is off, it's gonna engage too late or too early". That's just because of how the system is in the vehicle. I'd still have it on my vehicle though if I could.

VSC & PCS have a greater likelyhood to prevent an accident and a fatality than BSM ever will because they are more active in pushing the human error factor out of the way and taking control. If BSM forced a vehicle to stay in it's lane when something was in their blindspot, it'd be an inherently safer system because of it (though it'd be a more intrusive system and I'd be less likely to support it, but at least it has a 100% off switch).

 

[Thai]

That's been the entire point by me and a couple others, BSM does not make a driver safer because it relies on the driver to know how to set their mirrors and check their blindspots (because that's all BSM does is let the driver know they should do what they should be trained to do).

VSC is a double-edged sword and on that one I am more conflicted. It's got it's benefits, but it's extremely finicky and dangerous in icy and very slippery conditions. Unfortunately you can't actually 100% disable it in most vehicles, so that's where I get rubbed the wrong way with it. But it does help the majority of people out.

PCS is a good "damage reducing" system for reducing the probability of fatalities, can't argue with that. My only concern is how very... difficult it is to verify the calibration on the system once it's done. You can't hook up a scantool and go "yup your PCS is off, it's gonna engage too late or too early". That's just because of how the system is in the vehicle. I'd still have it on my vehicle though if I could.

My guess is that you may have fixed a few BSM modules etc....but you have never actually driven a vehicle with it for any length of time.

You have no clue on how it works and how it can PREVENT an accident. No clue at all.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

My guess is that you may have fixed a few BSM modules etc....but you have never actually driven a vehicle with it for any length of time.

You have no clue on how it works and how it can PREVENT an accident. No clue at all.

I don't know about your magickal BSM, but all the ones we have on Toyotas light up to let you know something metallic was detected in the detection zone that could be in your blind spot and to check your blindspot. That's what it's for. Maybe you have the super secret version that makes everyone drive properly, I don't know... but in the real world where people bleed red blood and Apple products are still shit, it's a glorified idiot beacon.

If you're using BSM by just letting the light tell you something's there and not verifying it you're doing it wrong.

 

[Thai]

I don't know about your magickal BSM, but all the ones we have on Toyotas light up to let you know something metallic was detected in the detection zone that could be in your blind spot and to check your blindspot. That's what it's for. Maybe you have the super secret version that makes everyone drive properly, I don't know... but in the real world where people bleed red blood and Apple products are still shit, it's a glorified idiot beacon.

If you're using BSM by just letting the light tell you something's there and not verifying it you're doing it wrong.

LOL...what does Apple have to do with this? People bleed red?

Yeah, ok...you need help dude.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

LOL...what does Apple have to do with this? People bleed red?

Yeah, ok...you need help dude.

Well you live in your own little world I don't know what colour people bleed in there. As for Apple? I like to get my digs against you when I can.

But seriously, BSM is a warning system meant to notify the driver to check their blindspots, that's it. IF it's tied to other systems as part of a package that's different, we are and have been talking solely BSM on it's own.

George Platzer in '95 wrote a paper for the SAE (http://papers.sae.org/950601/) regarding rearview mirrors, the mechanics, and ways to avoid blindspots. The method is often not taught or acknowledged in driver's education (a failure in education and thus perpetuating bad skills and thus bad drivers) because it can be a bit technical and awkward to get used to (but why that has any bearing on teaching people to do something properly I have no idea). BSM was created because of a failure in education and proper training (by Mazda or Volvo I think? I can't remember who came out with it first), it still requires users to check their mirrors, which fundamentally is the problem; that mirrors and checking them is often done wrong.

 

[Thai]

Well you live in your own little world I don't know what colour people bleed in there. As for Apple? I like to get my digs against you when I can.

But seriously, BSM is a warning system meant to notify the driver to check their blindspots, that's it. IF it's tied to other systems as part of a package that's different, we are and have been talking solely BSM on it's own.

George Platzer in '95 wrote a paper for the SAE (The Geometry of Automotive Rearview Mirrors - Why Blind Zones Exist and Strategies to Overcome Them) regarding rearview mirrors, the mechanics, and ways to avoid blindspots. The method is often not taught or acknowledged in driver's education (a failure in education and thus perpetuating bad skills and thus bad drivers) because it can be a bit technical and awkward to get used to (but why that has any bearing on teaching people to do something properly I have no idea). BSM was created because of a failure in education and proper training (by Mazda or Volvo I think? I can't remember who came out with it first), it still requires users to check their mirrors, which fundamentally is the problem; that mirrors and checking them is often done wrong.

You can take dig at me all you want...not sure how it relates...but anyhow....

So, now, we can all agree that people of all ages and of all decades don’t know how to adjust mirrors correctly...and that BSM does NOT encourage people to do wrong because they were ALREADY ignorant!!

Now, if 99% of folks don’t know how to adjust mirrors since the first Ford came out, then that means that BSM is helpful at preventing accidents.

Thanks for confirming what i have been arguing about. Next time, all you have to do is say, “I agree with you Thai.”

 

[BlackWorksInc]

You can take dig at me all you want...not sure how it relates.... Again, your thinking of things are truly off centered.

So, now, we can all agree that people of all ages and of all decades don’t know how to adjust mirrors correctly...and that BSM does NOT encourage people to do wrong.

Now, if 99% of folks don’t know how to adjust mirrors since the first Ford came out, then that means that BSM is helpful at preventing accidents.

Thanks for confirming what i have been arguing about. Next time, all you have to do is say, “I agree with you Thai.”

How does it prevent accidents? If they're mirrors are adjusted wrong or they don't know how to check them. Then they won't get accurate visual confirmation and they'll plow into that family and kill them. If your mirrors are only showing you the ass-end of your car and you go, "HERPA DERP GUESS BSM IS WRONG CUZ I SEE THE ASS OF MY CAR AND IT'S GOOD! LETS JERK THE WHEEL TO THE LEFT AND PRAISE JESUS!" you're getting in an accident or at least causing the other driver to have to avoid your stupidity. That happens often, even with BSM flashing away.

That's the entire point, BSM relies on the user to check their mirrors and know where the blindspots are on their vehicle. Do YOU know what the detection angles and zones are for you BSM in every vehicle? Do you also know what the exact size and shape of your blindspots are in your vehicle (trick question, it's not in the manual so you won't know, but hey who cares if you get a false positive from 20ft away you should check your mirrors like BSM is meant to help you do!)? Because most people do not, even with BSM. Most people also don't understand how BSM works and how cross-traffic alert works (had a guy saying it was broken and he nearly got in an accident, why? Because he was using it wrong and didn't read the ****ing manual).

You keep forgetting the fundamental problem, people are not aware of their blindspots, their mirrors, and their job in relation to those. Thus BSM does nothing to improve their skills.