We are screwed...

[JeremyH]

Well, it looks like the Dems just solidified a change of power and the end of their jobs:

House sends health care bill to Obama's desk - Health care reform- msnbc.com

 

[BamBam]

This is neither a pro/con argument in any way. But if you get a minute you might want to read up on the history of health care reform in Canada many years ago. It is a very very interesting story no matter what your viewpoint. It is one that could be read without really taking a side I think. I just read it in a book full of short stories last night and it was quite fascinating how the whole process worked. I guess I never realized how long ago it all took place up there. Interesting stuff. I am sure there are things that took place that you could apply here, and some that don't fit due to the time period.

The guy behind it was named Tommy Douglas and I believe he is Kiefer Sutherland's grandpa, and even in these very split times Canadian citizens still voted him the all-time greatest Canadian Citizen in a poll a few years ago. I thought that was quite amazing, especially for a guy who had such amazing potential to be a completely polarizing and divisive figure to half the nation. They still loved him and still do though.

Interesting if nothing else. Maybe there is something to be learned there and improved on. Or maybe not. I dunno. Just something that your post reminded me of.

 

[JeremyH]

I know quite a bit about Canadian Healthcare. I work in the healthcare industry in the US and work with a lot of people who visit other countries for work....they all report the same things. Our health care system is leaps and bounds above the others in technology and our wait times are minimal compared to others.

However, America seems to be misled by the media and those running our country.....everyone keeps throwing around the heart felt term "health care".....when in fact, health care is NOT what is being changed. The term that should be used is "health insurance"....however that doesnt tug at those heart strings as well...

 

[wjamyers]

lmao that some people think more IRS employees will reduce health care costs and improve care.

 

[Denio]

This is what it is all about....

WikiAnswers - How many employees in British health care system

 

[BamBam]

One thing to recall is hat I never lauded the Canadian system. Merely said it wad an interestingly similar story that took place what a hundred years ago? Was just saying it was worth a read considering how differently things seemingly worked back then everywhere.

On a personal note, I have traveled the world, worked with many amazing medical professionals (99 % of them American), BUT my experiences over the past week have really made me start to question a lot of what I've been saying. I am sure somebody will step up, but it has been a hard pill to swallow.

I het he feeling that you are anti health reform and anti administration. It sounds like kind of a misunderstanding to me whe. You say the it's have assured their own unemployment and any said system would be a mess. Then it wouldn't make sense that this is actually what you want to happen and we aren't really doomed, but rather this was be failure that spelled their end so you'd actually end up getting what you want, just a ways down the road?

Just enjoying an interesting conversation, not trying to create badwill by any means.

 

[JeremyH]

lmao that some people think more IRS employees will reduce health care costs and improve care.

I certainly hope that NO ONE in their right mind actually believes that Health Care will improve. The quality of care will go down. Anything our government touches (USPS, Public School System, etc.) goes down the tubes quickly and loses billions of dollars annually.

What I find wrong is that our government is planning on MASSSIVE cuts to Medicare (the system that our non-working elderly rely on for 80% of their health insurance coverage) to fund a group of able bodied persons who, for whatever reason, have chosen to not take health insurance or have a job that does not offer health insurance.

 

[Theothertyler]

I guess the one thing I'm most hoping is that people will take the time to examine what the bill will actually do and the impact it will have on themselves, their family, friends, and others.

So many partisans on both sides just screaming at one another who can't name one thing the bill does and wouldn't know their :moon: from a hole in the ground.

 

[JeremyH]

First, no hard feelings at all. This is only the internet. I also realize that everyone has the right to their opinion.

Second, I do not want a complete change of power. I want a government that listens to it's people and ONLY intervenes when there is a problem. I do not want a group of power hungry politicians that have their hands in their friends pockets. I am not a Democrat or Republican.

On a personal note, I have traveled the world, worked with many amazing medical professionals (99 % of them American), BUT my experiences over the past week have really made me start to question a lot of what I've been saying. I am sure somebody will step up, but it has been a hard pill to swallow.

What experiences are those? And what are you questioning?

 

[Thai]

This is what it is all about....

WikiAnswers - How many employees in British health care system

Well, at least, unemployment will go down in this country with the creation of those jobs.... :bravo:

 

[theizzardking]

we need government to regulate, not control the insurance companies/health care, i know some of you would feel the so called "free market" would do a better job then the government, yeah right, look how that worked out for the banking industry, they kept handing out loans and making record profits all the while selling the American people down the river for a little more scratch, and what we don't have insurance companies doing the same thing with denial of coverage and the cherry picking they do?

i believe the government should provide the basic necessities of life, food,water,shelter,education,protections and health care, but only to a certain standard, if you want a nice shelter,prompt health care, get a frigging job and earn it, if your *****ing about long wait times go to school get a good job and buy supplemental.

there is a huge difference between traveling to other countries and living there,i am a citizen of the us and the uk, and have lived in both extensively,
every country complains and waves arms about perceived problems ,
truth of the matter is i would rather be down on my luck there then here,
as sure i may not have as much over there but it will be a robust level of
care, meaning that all the basics i listed above would be provided, and sure it may not be the best but it's something, right now i have been paying into the system my whole life and have never drawn from it, and it scares me to think that if i got hit by a car or became unable to take care of myself for any reason i'd be wwaayyy more screwed over here.

the financial arguments can go either way, it'll be cheaper becuase of larger pools and less emergency room visits or it'll be more expensive becuase of larger over head,blah blah blah, this isn't going to kill us, and should be included in the "right to life" part of our constitution, if you want to make the argument about money start going after the war budget and foreign aid money and other programs that are just sickeningly excessive and don't help Americans, and as loud as these people are about denial of health care they should be talking about illegals and trying to get them the f'out.

we are screwed becuase a million other things not becuase of doing whats right in the first place here, doing whats right for our fellow country men,citizens. we are screwed for way to many other things, nafta, spending $500 on toilet seats instead of armor for our troops, i mean wtf?!?!

i'm not a dem, i'm not a socialist even as much as i may sound like one, i believe in basic human rights and beyond that your on your own buddy, sure i'll pay for government housing but it should be a single cement shack with the basics,no more, sure i'll buy food stamps for people, but you must by only the major food groups and we the people deiced what that is, sure i'll pay for your health care but you may have to wait 6 months for that ACL or rotator cuff, beyond that, you want more get the hell out and get a job and buy it.....


we just need better use of the systems we have and get pretty much every single moron out of office on pretty much every level, what we really need is a citizen run government again with 1-2 year term limits like they did back in the day, as back then Congress was a bunch of farmers and also had real jobs they could only work in congress for so long before they had to return to
work or the fields, there should be no f**king such thing as career politicians,
making money off of politics is making money selling fellow Americans down the road, when elected into office the government should pay what ever your living wage was at your job before you became a elected official, and very strict ethic policies in place , no hand outs,kick backs, lobbyist dollars,ect ect ect, no other source of income other then your government paid job ...... yes i think politicians should have to sacrifice to serve our nation, they should have to sacrifice potential profitability just as our soldiers and people sacrifice their families,time,profitability and very lives protecting our boarders and interests abroad.


blah, i could go on forever, but the whole frigging thing is just sickening.

rant over and sorry for my screen puke, just had to get that out there...somewhere, lol:toilet:

 

[Thai]

it scares me to think that if i got hit by a car or became unable to take care of myself for any reason i'd be wwaayyy more screwed over here.

Why? Like you said, if you want good medical care, then get a freaking job...well, do you have one? Do you have health insurance? Why would you be screwed in a car accident over here???

If you're poor over here and have zero money, then i am sure that you will still get good care in our hospitals and ERs...maybe even better care than over "there."

Interesting rant, but i am not sure what exactly you said....

 

[theizzardking]

Why? Like you said, if you want good medical care, then get a freaking job...well, do you have one? Do you have health insurance? Why would you be screwed in a car accident over here???

If you're poor over here and have zero money, then i am sure that you will still get good care in our hospitals and ERs...maybe even better care than over "there."

Interesting rant, but i am not sure what exactly you said....

if i got in a bad car accident i would lose my job after while (can't employ someone who can't work anymore) and my health insurance would go along with that, so right there i'm screwed and let's say it took me 5 years to get over that or maybe more, i could have racked up 100K's of dollars by the end of it all and my level of living would be sub par to say the least, in short my life would be ruined, checks garnished, falling between the cracks as in you make to much but not enough but we still want the 40K you owe us for the e.r. visit.

over there you go to the e.r. they ask you about 5 questions none of which concern a job,insurance,or even an address they treat you and slap you on the back on the way out, no paper work or questions asked, i was only in the e.r. for 2 hours before i was treated and released for food poisoning in the u.k.

and it's not like our hospitals are going to start crumbling and that new state of the art machine isn't going to be at the hospital next time you go, America will always have the best doctors and equipment for the most part, and is it becuase we pay so much? uummmm....no, it's becuase of the American life style, and that's our #1 export, having been around the world a few times myself everyone wants to come here and live, big mac's, kick ass 4runners,big screen t.v.'s, this is the draw to come here and work not the pay, the u.k.'s exchange rate is far better then most of the places in the world yet you don't have a flood of people going there to work.
(keep in mind you can make a mint doing private practice over there, they still do house visits and everything if you have paid insurance)
i have the choice to either live and work here or there, i can make far more money over there then here but i'd never give up the lifestyle.

and as it stands right now i have a great job and great insurance, and i work for that and therefore deserve it, i just don't get where common sense has gone, really is what it is.


i guess what i was really trying to say is, this bill that passed is a good thing even if it's not very good at all, if that makes any sense, maybe we can clear this up when we clear of the 1,000's of other stupid things government does. or put better just cause the governments going to screw it up doesn't mean we shouldn't have it


who's up for the next big thing to be GOVERNMENT reform? not bigger or smaller just sharpened then focus on the size.:gun5:

 

[Thai]

If you get into a car accident BEFORE losing your job due to the accident, then doesn't your health insurance cover until you reached a whatever limit that the insurance plan will pay?? I don't think that the health insurance can drop you simply because you lost your job while having an acute hospitalized illness. Maybe i am wrong or you have one crappy plan?? Now, if you lost your job and THEN get into an accident, then you can still get coverage within a period of time by paying a one-time premium to your previous insurance plan (COBRA coverage).

Trust me, if you have no money (jobs, etc.), then most (if not all) hospitals will write off what you owe. Sure, you will get plenty of bills and reminders, but they won't go after your car nor your house, unless you have a parking lot of cars. Yeah, you will be in a homeless shelter (not what this discussion is about) once the house bank kicks you out, BUT you can ALWAYS come to the ANY ER/hospital to get medical care, REGARDLESS OF YOUR FINANCIAL BACKING. Yes, you will be asked for financial information, but the ER/hospital WILL HAVE to treat you regardless...and treat you with the same level of care as the rich bas**** laying in the next room. And no, we do not treat the paying patients first and then the "self-pays." In fact, ER physicians and nurses at my hospitals do not even know what insurance (or pay status) of the patients that they treat.

 

[wjamyers]

The GSE's lost over 75 billion last year, paid by the govt. They've lost more than they ever made. all those profits were privatized. all the losses are socialized.

mortgage brokers used their risk models to ok the loans they made and then offloaded that risk on the GSEs.

meanwhile the Federal Reserve was keeping rates stupidly low to stave off recession.

then the whole ponzi scheme came crashing down and yet you think that represents a "free market". It's really disheartening.

sorry mate, but you're a dupe.

 

[theizzardking]

Maybe i am wrong or you have one crappy plan??

well on my current plan i'm unaware but again "if you reach the cap" or have a crappy plan,your screwed, there should be no small print on what i worked for for the last 20 years to have and lose in one fail swoop of fate due to medical bills.

i am in no way an alarmist like the current climate out there, i'm not saying hospitals are letting people die and all of that , i'm just saying that there is a potential to get kicked from your house and lose everything because of the way things are set up, one accident and you have nothing and are digging out of a hole for the rest of your life.

 

[theizzardking]

The GSE's lost over 75 billion last year, paid by the govt. They've lost more than they ever made. all those profits were privatized. all the losses are socialized.

mortgage brokers used their risk models to ok the loans they made and then offloaded that risk on the GSEs.

meanwhile the Federal Reserve was keeping rates stupidly low to stave off recession.

then the whole ponzi scheme came crashing down and yet you think that represents a "free market". It's really disheartening.

sorry mate, but you're a dupe.

sorry to say your the dupe, the whole reason all of that was allowed to happen was deregulation in spirit of a free market economy, we we're both there when that happened i just wonder who was paying attention....lol j/k

and again i can point back to products were it was cheaper to make with a harmful substance then a safe one and yet the companies still used them until the government stepped in and regulated.

along with almost anything of the sort, there is a place for government regulation and you can't rely on the free market to self regulate everything, and i strongly feel my health and life shouldn't be decided by a company but rather a combination of both with the government setting the basic standard for the companies to operate by and then let the best business practices aka free market determine the rest.


and i find this kind of funny

all those profits were privatized. all the losses are socialized.

i hope your talking about spin here, as it would be impossible to come up with any sort of real number there, it's re****ed no matter how you look at it,

the private sector makes all of the goods which the hospitals use right? and the private sector pays for none of the staff, any of the operational costs, ect ect and the government pays all of that so right there it makes sense,

or if that's the wrong way of looking at it, how do you determine from the spending for the private as opposed to the government,when both are working on the same person under the same roof...blah blah blah

or are you saying private hospitals make money and the government run ones only lose money? again another duh one, what would you expect, one is for the people and one is for profit? there's nothing wrong with that please refer to my level of care comments and supplemental,


that whole thing sounds like a load bullocks, there's no way to come up with that stat really, at least i can see.


that sounds like another butt load of spin to me,


not trying to fight, but i think having not lived in both societies it's hard to
see what i'm talking about, the English complain about rising crime levels and such yet they have no idea what crime really is, and we complain, well about everything yet we have it better then 99.9% of the world, America is great and a great place to be, but Americans sure and hell don't act like it, been along time since i've seen pride and not quasi-patriotism/boarder line fascism.

you know the grass is always greener.

 

[Thai]

well on my current plan i'm unaware but again "if you reach the cap" or have a crappy plan,your screwed

No, it just means that your doctor and hospital won't be paid after your insurance plan reaches a cap, which is usually several hundreds of dollars later. And again, most hospitals will not come after you. My hospital has a "self-play" financial discount. Depending on how much you make (or how little you make), the hospital will discount the bills...most of the time, it is 80-90%! So, again, it is a write-off.

And, remember, in a hospital, you are treated the same. That means that if you bleed out of your a$$, you will get the proper procedure, usually within 24 hours. If you have a major heart attack and come to the ER of a small country hospital, then you are transferred to the nearest hospital for proper care...and THAT hospital HAS TO ACCEPT YOU. In addition, you have County hospitals around most areas in this country that will accept you if you have no financial support.

The general public has no freaking idea how the healthcare system works...they only hear what the liberal-minded media has to say.

So, yeah, this country's hospital provide amazingly good care to everyone and anyone, regardless of your financial situation. And you get prompt care.

 

[BamBam]

First, no hard feelings at all. This is only the internet. I also realize that everyone has the right to their opinion.

Second, I do not want a complete change of power. I want a government that listens to it's people and ONLY intervenes when there is a problem. I do not want a group of power hungry politicians that have their hands in their friends pockets. I am not a Democrat or Republican.



What experiences are those? And what are you questioning?

I had a surgery on my back done the other day (Sorry about the typing earlier, was trying to use my iphone and I can't figure the stinking keyboard out... stubby fingers!!) .

The way I was treated through the whole process was pretty ridiculous. I have always been the biggest fan of the American Medical system, but after seeing what I have been billed for quite a few "required" "pre-screening" appointments and procedures that have dragged on for well over 2 years then I have to wonder about things. I would have gone to bat for the system we have in place because those of us with good insurance have always been treated well. Now I am being charged .50 per page to even get a copy of my own medical records and asked to pay $100 to sit down with my physician so he can knock out a form letter explaining several days worth of absences over the last two years. That is required by the large practice who I have paid well over $20,000 to for the delivery of 2 babies, plus at least $200 a month for regular visits over the past 10 years. Yet when I need a simple paperwork issue done to keep my job, I am told it will cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 to get my family doctor to "write a note" after I spend all of my evenings and weekends doing research based on the records they are charging me for.

Plus they misbilled something and I have called everybody within the organization that I can think of over the last 2 months from the financial secretary up to the CEO asking for help on the messed up bill and for a simple resubmit. Guess how many callbacks I've gotten? NONE.

That is before anything is changed. They have taken this attitude of gouging even their best customers for no apparent reason (other than spite) and despite my frequently agreeing with them on many things from the outset there has not been one specialty appointment over the past 2 years where I haven't had a break and not had to listen to a political rant and how doomed we truly are if people like me don't get out there and make a difference. Are you kidding me? I sat an extra hour per appointment in a waiting room and am then verbally assaulted like I'm listening to a radio show with anti-whoever or whatever rhetoric and propaganda even while laying in a recovery bed and expected to not just be tired of it? As somebody who has been "in the trenches" literally fighting for his life for the past two years I feel like I am deserving of just a break from it.

The background noise is getting to be too much and I am changing my tune in some respects, because it feels to me that there HAS TO BE people who feel that in order to even receive medical care they have to sit through the lecture and basically agree to whatever is said. I have rarely ever said anything contrary, but when I did it never was a nice back and for short discussion it was just a look at me like I was an idiot and then handing me my forms and saying "come back in a month" or something to that effect. How many are receiving substandard care for not "playing the game"? It has become a genuine concern for me, and that is regardless of your stance. That should NOT happen.

Just as in my profession of being a teacher, we have to keep our mouth's shut about political things, and yes, I have seen teachers get in trouble for speaking up politically and I felt deservedly so. No student should be in an environment (especially in elementary) where they feel they have to have the same opinion as their teacher. Wrong wrong wrong. I challenge any student I've ever had to figure out my political leanings because I go to great lengths to keep them hidden, and I don't always vote for the person who my "profession" would support because I'd rather do what's best for the country than what's for me. I think we share some real common ground there.

My hospital experience this past week is still locked in my mind clearly, and there is one thing that has been talked about that would have changed the entire situation totally, and that would be medical records that could be accessed by any doctor I saw anywhere in the country (a national health database). Before it sort of scared me in a way and I was not real into the idea. Now I realize that not having such a thing nearly killed me. For real. I kept trying to get them to look at my records I had filled out prescreening and they just claimed that there was trouble for whatever reason and they didn't have access to what my referring doctor wrote in advance. But with a national record system they could have gone in and seen the whole deal and been like "Ah-ha.... his doctor explains it very well and makes his needs very clear... much clearer than he does when we are yelling at him at 2 AM while he's under anesthesia and receiving obviously the wrong medication." Uggggh... Sorry for the novel. I guess I'm just a bit disillusioned today.

 

[wjamyers]

sorry to say your the dupe, the whole reason all of that was allowed to happen was deregulation in spirit of a free market economy, we we're both there when that happened i just wonder who was paying attention....lol j/k


not trying to fight, but i think having not lived in both societies it's hard to
see what i'm talking about, the English complain about rising crime levels and such yet they have no idea what crime really is, and we complain, well about everything yet we have it better then 99.9% of the world, America is great and a great place to be, but Americans sure and hell don't act like it, been along time since i've seen pride and not quasi-patriotism/boarder line fascism.

you know the grass is always greener.

The GSE's were instituted "in the spirit of a free market economy"? The GSE's were an attempt at social engineering, period. Their function was supposed to be to increase home ownership and stabilize markets at no cost. How'd that work out for us? Answer, govt attempts to manipulate markets failed to the tune of 150 billion dollars lost.

Are you trying to imply without directly saying it that I haven't lived in "both societies?" How exactly would you know that?