We are screwed...

[Thai]

And how will this universal healthcare or whatever it is called gonna change what happened to you BamBam?? Hell, you may have to wait much longer for that back surgery...or may not have one at all! You think that gouging will go away? I guarantee you that it may get worst because hospitals will have to make their money somehow. And you think that your doctor will spend more time with you?? Well, your doctor may not care enough to even lecture you next time!

Good luck with your rehab.

 

[wjamyers]

bam bam, have you enquired how many of those ""required" "pre-screening" appointments and procedures " were required by law?

 

[BamBam]

bam bam, have you enquired how many of those ""required" "pre-screening" appointments and procedures " were required by law?

Yeah, none of them were. They were all "office policy".

 

[BamBam]

And how will this universal healthcare or whatever it is called gonna change what happened to you BamBam?? Hell, you may have to wait much longer for that back surgery...or may not have one at all! You think that gouging will go away? I guarantee you that it may get worst because hospitals will have to make their money somehow. And you think that your doctor will spend more time with you?? Well, your doctor may not care enough to even lecture you next time!

Good luck with your rehab.

Like I said.... I had pretty much agreed with them and have been supportive and "on the medical community's side" for years without question. My questioning comes down to when they say "IF YOU DO THIS YOUR CAR WILL SUFFER." My point is only "Crap, my care is already suffering just because they are feeling a threat." Instead of stepping up and everybody showing how great it works they've almost seemed to go the extra mile to show that you will either do things their way or you will sufffer, and as a matter of fact, I AM doing things their way and I did suffer.

Do I fully support switching? NOPE. Never said I did. I merely said that after my experiences of the last while I am starting to believe about as much coming out of the medical community's mouth as politician's, and I'm no politician believer.

I've got an insurance company that collects $28,000 from my employer for me, my wife, and 2 kids every year. $28,000. I have never come close to using that much. I would just like the choice to get that in cash and do what I want with it, but I'd be forbidden from accepting any free care. Yeah, I'll roll the dice. If I get a life threatening illness and am going to die then I'll hope that I've turned that $28,000 into enough to pay for my treatment. Seems fair to me.

Who doesn't want this plan? 1- The guy who negotiates the contract between insurance and my employer. The guy is kicked back to high heaven. 2- The insurance company, because no matter what they say there is NO WAY they are losing money. Sorry. Not buying it. 3- The doctors. Because they have nice rates negotiated. If I'm paying cash and I call around and say "Hey, I need this back surgery done and my limit is $28,000.... what can you work out for me out the door all expenses included? I'm calling 10 surgeons in the U.S., Australia, and Europe for price quotes. Then all of a sudden a sure thing isn't so sure anymore. They have their deals locked in.

So do I sound like the kind of person that is looking for some universal healthcare that "might get worse"? No, not really in my book. I'll take the cash please. Plus I'd like something to be phased in so that my children were guaranteed that when they are 36 that half of their wages weren't going to medical and that the majority of bankruptcies in this country didn't have some form of medical component, but my aims for getting it done don't exactly agree with what doctors are slamming me with, or politicians either.

The whole thing as it is reminds me so much of car insurance. Over the years I've probably paid enough for 2 new cars completely and never taken anything out. The one time I called about a cracked window they told me I was SOL. Seriously... I am required by law to have a service that doesn't cover the most common accidents that are also REQUIRED BY LAW to be fixed? NICCCCE!!!!

 

[theizzardking]

The GSE's were instituted "in the spirit of a free market economy"? The GSE's were an attempt at social engineering, period. Their function was supposed to be to increase home ownership and stabilize markets at no cost. How'd that work out for us? Answer, govt attempts to manipulate markets failed to the tune of 150 billion dollars lost.

Are you trying to imply without directly saying it that I haven't lived in "both societies?" How exactly would you know that?

your living in a dream world,you're arguing what is pretty much agreed on as fact, and blaming this on something that worked for 30 years till it became deregulated and had no over sight.

Mortgage GSE controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The controversy in relation to the United States mortgage government sponsored enterprises (GSEs) was triggered by accounting scandals, which urged the US government to consider tightening the control over them."

and what fixed the problem? regulation.

it's stupid to think that we don't need regulation of some sort,
if left to the free market there would be no child labor laws, i mean
if the product is cheaper and just as good do you really care who makes it?
or should we have no laws period....

this is wayyy beyond the original point, so i'm done with this, another conversation for another time

 

[theizzardking]

No, it just means that your doctor and hospital won't be paid after your insurance plan reaches a cap, which is usually several hundreds of dollars later. And again, most hospitals will not come after you. My hospital has a "self-play" financial discount. Depending on how much you make (or how little you make), the hospital will discount the bills...most of the time, it is 80-90%! So, again, it is a write-off.

And, remember, in a hospital, you are treated the same. That means that if you bleed out of your a$$, you will get the proper procedure, usually within 24 hours. If you have a major heart attack and come to the ER of a small country hospital, then you are transferred to the nearest hospital for proper care...and THAT hospital HAS TO ACCEPT YOU. In addition, you have County hospitals around most areas in this country that will accept you if you have no financial support.

The general public has no freaking idea how the healthcare system works...they only hear what the liberal-minded media has to say.

So, yeah, this country's hospital provide amazingly good care to everyone and anyone, regardless of your financial situation. And you get prompt care.

ok most of them won't come after you, but some will. enough reason to have protections there, transparency is good.

my girl is actually a billing/receptionist at one of the largest clinics in the state, and from talking to her my understanding is that "what the clinics and hospitals do is sell off the remainder of the debt to collection agencies and then you loose your home and cars and all of the rest just the same as any other unsettled debt"

and from personal experience i can say that's a fact, i haven't always had a good job and haven't always had coverage, and have been threatened to be sued for a $600 ER bill.

and what's the deal with doctors charging more for the same job depending on the persons insurance coverage?

all of this is why i support the bill to a certain extent. i just hope it gets done right and does what it's meant to and no more.

 

[Atlanta_man]

A 2,500 page bill...nobody read it. Thats fine.

I'd like to know who wrote it, that's a lot of writing. So far nobody is asking who wrote it. I'm betting lobbyists for AMA, Ins, Pharma, Plaintif Lawyers, AARP and others delivered it on a usb stick and said: "pass it and we will contribute to your reelection"

 

[Thai]

my girl is actually a billing/receptionist at one of the largest clinics in the state, and from talking to her my understanding is that "what the clinics and hospitals do is sell off the remainder of the debt to collection agencies and then you loose your home and cars and all of the rest just the same as any other unsettled debt"

With all due respect, i think that your girl is wrong. She needs to read the law better. This is how bad rumors get started.

 

[Thai]

My questioning comes down to when they say "IF YOU DO THIS YOUR CAR WILL SUFFER." My point is only "Crap, my care is already suffering just because they are feeling a threat." Instead of stepping up and everybody showing how great it works they've almost seemed to go the extra mile to show that you will either do things their way or you will sufffer, and as a matter of fact, I AM doing things their way and I did suffer.

Sorry, but your doctors are out of line. I do not talk about politics with any of my patients...i don't have the time to! I barely have time to take care of my ICU patients much less talk crap with folks! The fact that your doctors talked crap to you tells me that they have way too much time on their hands! And they are potentially crooks if they ran you through the cleaners! There are standard of care protocols for these things, including your surgery. Not all doctors are good...not all doctors are bad. Unfortunately, like every professions, there are bad apples out there.

Good luck with your rehab, BamBam.

 

[theizzardking]

Couldn't agree more. I have been in a motorcycle accident , was in a wheel chair for 3 months and had to learn to walk again after atrophy and 6 surgeries and before that it was a neck fracture and 3 destroyed discs not to mention a mild heart attack and the usual stuff, I have found you have pretty much have to fight the whole way man, and tell people to do their jobs for some reason. One time I slipped a disc and. Trapt a nerve and was trying to get mri and see what was going on as you can probably relate to the pain was indescribable I couldn't move , my primary doc couldn't get me in for a week and suggested the e.r., so went in with records in hand and checked in after my girl unloaded me from the bed if the truck, well some how they lost my records from check in to my bed , and never got the mri , I spent a week with my girl carrying me to the toilet and sleeping on the living room floor unable to care for myself , before I got the mri and feel if I would've been taken seriously @ the e.r. I would have been admitted and got the mri and saved myself a week of misery and my girl taking time off to help me provide basic care for myself , I feel like you with the. Amount I pay stuff like that should be covered, oh and I got a 250 bill for that e.r. visit that did nothing

 

[theizzardking]

With all due respect, i think that your girl is wrong. She needs to read the law better. This is how bad rumors get started.

Ok the laws say you can't send co-payment to collections so they charge you late fees and send those instead , she says she doesn't know about county and state funded hospitals but at her clinic they commonly send their own employees to collections for medical bills from their own clinic and insurance company , again largest in the state , and I've personally have been sent to collections by hospitals, just google medical debt collection to see the stories, it's happening . I mean the money has to come from somewhere why not make it transparent .


I mean if you got a link for the kaws l'd like to read them, so I have a better idea of what's going on, I'm just a 28 year old. Guy speaking from my understanding and experiences and don't take myself to seriously, I like a good drink and debate and maybe learn something or at least a different way of seeing it.


He who is not a democrat in his 20's has no heart and he who is not a republican in his 30's has no brain. Churchill

 

[BamBam]

Just to clear one thing up. Churchill didn't derive such a quote... he was quoting someone else when he said that. And I believe he used different terminology, but no big deal.

I didn't catch the rest of the argument, but I know of medical offices that send people to collections practically for a living. Are some saying they don't?

If you're talking copays then typically offices have the choice to collect them or not. My stepmom is a doctor and her office always waived my copay, so it wasn't ever a "debt" for me. But after a while I had some debt piled up with them and they sent me to collections. It turned out that they had turned the entire debt over to the collection agency... the collection agency was to get what they could, and then they'd send the difference back to the doctor's office.... regardless of what they got. It was all gravy for them really, as they got like $65 upfront from the office just to take the thing to collections. They like it more than small claims because it is "scarier" and in small-claims there is actually a good chance they will LOSE when you start going line by line on charges and they realize it would cost them $500 for the hour to send somebody over to sit through the hearing.

Don't know if I helped any. Just adding something to the conversation (I hope).

 

[BamBam]

Sorry, but your doctors are out of line. I do not talk about politics with any of my patients...i don't have the time to! I barely have time to take care of my ICU patients much less talk crap with folks! The fact that your doctors talked crap to you tells me that they have way too much time on their hands! And they are potentially crooks if they ran you through the cleaners! There are standard of care protocols for these things, including your surgery. Not all doctors are good...not all doctors are bad. Unfortunately, like every professions, there are bad apples out there.

Good luck with your rehab, BamBam.

See why I'm getting disullusioned? So many of these doctors are docs that I have worked with for years and have been there for me and gone to bat for me and helped me and gotten me through hell. Now a political issue comes up and I guarantee these dudes are doing it to every patient. All the good will they built up over the years is going out the window.

You see why I have always taken their side as well. Like my own profession. I feel like 97% are dedicated, overworking, overcaring, amazing, miracle working professionals. It is the 3% that do so much damage to the others that make it hard and make us all have questions in our head.

I have this parent that every time a teacher does something dumb nationally I am guaranteed to have an hour conference with her the next day. Do I do it? Yes. Do I sit there and tell her how dumb she is? No. Why? Because for the benefit of the profession and her psyche and her child's it is best that I just do EVERYTHING in my ability personally and professionally to put her mind at ease, and thus ease the burden on her already overburdened daughter. You know how it goes Thai. Sometimes we have to step it up to lift the ships around us.

I just figured this would be one of those times. Instead I have heard reports of doctors in this area checking political donation records and basically turning away those who helped the Obama campaign. Do I have solid proof yet? No. But I know docs that are still accepting patients that have turned away people that I saw on the public record were donating to specific campaigns. Very weird. Or I have had docs straight out tell me that they don't listen to so and so because "they are a kook that wants this ObamaCommieCare." I mean if they will tell ME that (just a patient) what are they saying to the person, their co-workers, and how are they treating that patient? Scary.

I actually check everybody I do major big money business with and check for campaign contributions. Why? I love it when people are involved in the process. I wasn't much of a fan of a series of the decisions of George W. Bush in his second term, but I had a man who gave a great deal "contribution-wise" operate on me. Why even though I didn't quite see eye-to-eye? Because I knew he put his money where his mouth was, was involved in the political process, and most importantly he voted! That's what it's all about to me. Not bullying people into going your way. Just doing the best we can and trying to make our voice heard in appropriate forums (such as peer groups like this and such) and in a civil and non-threatening tone. It's a great thing.

 

[theizzardking]

I got the impression Thai thought medical debt was treated differently the anyother debt, and wanted. To know what he knows, and sorry bout the Churchill quote but you know what they say bout history and the victor , lol just how I came to know those words. I think we are on the same page more or less .....basic coverage for all citizens and basic consumer protection. Not saying anything about the people at all I'm talking about the industry and what companies are as a entity doing.

 

[Thai]

I got the impression Thai thought medical debt was treated differently the anyother debt, and wanted. To know what he knows, and sorry bout the Churchill quote but you know what they say bout history and the victor , lol just how I came to know those words. I think we are on the same page more or less .....basic coverage for all citizens and basic consumer protection. Not saying anything about the people at all I'm talking about the industry and what companies are as a entity doing.

Oh no, i just know what my hospital (and most hospitals around me) do with non-paying or self-pay patients. You guys are talking about private outpatient clinics...that is something i know little about...and i am sure that there are crooks out there. I am involved in the operation of my hospital as well as head of a few departments. I try to know the way things operate in my hospital.

 

[JeremyH]

The way I was treated through the whole process was pretty ridiculous

Well, it sounds like you went to a terrible place....however, your experiences will NOT change via this new "reform". This is an INSURANCE reform only. The customer service of the facility will not be any different....just who pays them. My facility (an outpatient clinic), just like Thai's, writes off plenty of "hardship" cases all the time. We explain EVERYTHING regarding billing prior to the beginning of our patient's treatment and give them an exact figure of what their responsibility will be. We have never gone after one of our non-paying patients and have not turned in a single one of them to a collection agency. Remember, a hospital has the choice to either accept partial payment for a procedure or no payment for a procedure...which would you choose?

But, that is neither here nor there. This reform is, again, ONLY ABOUT INSURANCE. Our government has now created the largest monopoly in the country (remember, a while back Bill Gates was told that he could not merge companies because a monopoly is against the law)....


BTW, here is a good quote from one of the founding fathers of this country:

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

--Thomas Jefferson

 

[Thai]

Ok the laws say you can't send co-payment to collections so they charge you late fees and send those instead , she says she doesn't know about county and state funded hospitals

What i meant was that your girl said that collection agency/hospital/etc. will come after your house and car. That is NOT true. Collection agency can put a lean/stake on your house IF you decide to sell it or IF it forecloses. But, if your house is your primary residence and you are living in it (and it is either paid for or you are paying for it on time), then NO ONE CAN TAKE IT FROM YOU. I think that the law also allows you to have one car in the house as the primary transportation. So, this was what i was correcting in what your girl said.

 

[Thai]

My facility (an outpatient clinic), just like Thai's, writes off plenty of "hardship" cases all the time. We explain EVERYTHING regarding billing prior to the beginning of our patient's treatment and give them an exact figure of what their responsibility will be. We have never gone after one of our non-paying patients and have not turned in a single one of them to a collection agency. Remember, a hospital has the choice to either accept partial payment for a procedure or no payment for a procedure...which would you choose?....

That is the problem. The public knows very little about the healthcare system. They just hear liberal propaganda on TV and get sway by it.

Folks, either way, doctors will be paid...sure, it may decrease a little bit, but in the end, doctors will get paid. What is not clear is how patient care will be affected...and this is where i fear that the public will soon find that everything is not as rosey as what President Obama claims. For example, Canadian doctors get paid...and their work ethic is worst than here. They go to work and see as few patients as they can and go home early. No incentive to work harder. Patients can wait in line all they want...the clinic tells the waiting patients to come back tomorrow or go to the ER.

 

[JeremyH]

That is the problem. The public knows very little about the healthcare system. They just hear liberal propaganda on TV and get sway by it.

Agreed. Most folks dont know exactly how health care is billed and who exactly is to blame. Most people dont understand that Medicare (yes, our government) sets the rates that doctors are paid and most insruances follow suit. Medicare and clinicians are engaged in a weird dance when it comes to billing. Medicare pays about 1/3 of what is billed....so most facilities will bill 3 times the expected amount. Both parties think they got a good deal.

The messed up part is when a "for cash" patient comes in and wants to pay out of his own pocket. Medicare will ***** and moan if we give the for cash patient a lower bill....even though Medicare pays 1/3. So, our government is actually the person screwing those without insurance and causing people to go into financial hardships when they are treated without insurance. Medicare tells us that it is fraud to overcharge and fraud to undercharge.

Of course, the media doesn't report this....they only report the "outrageous" amounts that are BILLED TO Medicare...

 

[004Gunner]

I want National Health Care. Yeah, I think our government could fail horribly at it. Yeah, our government has failed horribly at many other things in the not so distant past. Yeah, I believe that the vast majority of my tax dollars are squandered. But Health Care for all is an ideal. It's a noble ideal that America can achieve and should at the very least strive for. If it proves to be a mistake, if for some reason America just can't pull it off right now, fine. But I can't stand to hear the fear mongering of the American media and the ill informed citizens talk about what a disaster national health care is in countries that they have never lived in. Our system is not the best. And because it is not the best, we should try to make it better. Status Quo is unacceptable, and un-American.