Weird electrical issue on 2015 Trail

[Ezekiel2222]

I've been experiencing a weird electrical issue with my less than 3-month old TE, and so far the Toyota dealership has been less than helpful.

Basically what will happen is at random times, certain electrical systems go crazy (for lack of a better term). There are several symptoms of this craziness which all happen at the same time:

The keyless remote won't lock or unlock (haven't tried panic yet).
The lock/unlock button in the truck won't work unless it's on.
The tailgate can't be opened unless the truck is on.
The interior lights do not come on when the door is opened, and they cannot be turned on manually either.
Several icons on the dash are constantly flashing (one for A-trac and one for multi-terrain select pop to mind).
Sometimes the horn will blare while turning the truck on.
The clock will light up, but be completely blank (no numbers at all).
All the trip odometer settings are reset.

During the craziness the truck is still drivable, and all important systems like headlights work fine. I have not figured out a way to make this craziness go away, including starting and stopping the truck multiple times. The only thing that seems to work is to let it sit for a long time (like overnight). In the morning it will usually be back to normal (keyless remote works, ect) and I just have to reset the clock and be on my way.

I've also witnessed the car alarm randomly go off a couple times while it has just been sitting in the driveway. Before I can get outside with the keys the alarm has stopped, and when I turn on the truck there is no "craziness", but the clock is reset to 1:00.

To me it sounds like some sort of short/ground/fuse/battery/computer issue. Naturally the dealer asked if I had done any mods to the vehicle. I explained I had official OEM Toyota heated seats installed by the shop recommended to me by the dealership (see my first thread). The dealer told me it was probably being caused by the heated seats, so they "unhooked them" to see if it still happened. Needless to say, the issue is still there, and my service manager said I would have to pay to have them remove everything. I told him I would unplug the seat wiring harnesses myself, which I did, and I'm still having the same problems. At this point I'm 99.9% sure it is not being caused by anything I had installed (unless the wiring harness and 2 switches in the center console are at fault), but I'm not sure if I can convince the dealership that they need to look elsewhere and figure out what the real problem is.

I don't suppose anyone has ever witnessed any issue similar to this one?

 

[philsey]

How long did you own the car before the heated seats?

"....and my service manager said I would have to pay to have them remove everything."

I'd agree to that. But first I'd also ask the SM to refund the cost, and reconnect them, IF (as you suspect) it turns out not to be the problem. You've got to find some way to move forward from this impasse.

Frankly, with an electrical gremlin, I'd sure be suspicious of the previous electrical work. Just disconnecting it does not necessarily reverse what the installing monkey might have done.

Have you discussed this problem with the installer?

Just because your dealer recommended the installer, does not mean your dealer (or Toyota) is responsible for his work.

 

[wfo9]

Here we go again, these dealerships are just ridiculous these days. Blaming the heated seats and unwilling to disconnect a harness (when it is just Toyota parts). What a bunch of lazy bums.

Toyota customer service is the pits these days. There seem to be more and more threads like this these days. Most service department and techs don't want to deal with you for service unless they can make easy money. If it is complicated, they typically just turn you away or say "not reproducible".... or "caused by your aftermarket parts and modifications" not covered. It's not legal for them to do this, they have to prove the problem is caused by your modifications/parts. Once they have proof, they can turn you away without breaking the warranty contract, but not until that point.

You are going to need to find a different dealership. This one is obviously a joke. Maybe someone in your area knows of a better one. If they can't do better, you might be able to get [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] to provide some troubleshooting steps for them to follow. He seems to be a really good Toyota tech and has helped others here.

Also, going to the shop that did the seats might be something to try (as a sanity check). I don't see how that could cause all these problems, but just get them to explain exactly what was done and what was touched. Typically, you just plug in to an existing harness...

Did the dealership bother to hookup to the diagnostic port and see if any codes were present....?

but I'm not sure if I can convince the dealership that they need to look elsewhere and figure out what the real problem is.

You might have to convince them with a lawyer. I don't understand why people put up with this.

One more thing, try disconnecting the battery for a bit. That usually resets the body control modules. I had a Tahoe where the remote start would stop working every few months. Disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes would resolve it, but then it would happen again in a few months. I never bothered to find the root of the problem since it was an old truck with a ton of miles on it.

 

[jrandom]

You haven't had a pack-rat or other rodent chewing on any of your wires under the hood have you? Have you looked for any traces of the vermin? Little buggers can cause some serious havoc in a matter of minutes.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Hmm... kind of hesitant to lay the blame on the seat, not a bad place to start; but its a weird issue...

Did the dealership mention any DTCs that may have noticed? I'm curious because according to your first thread everything seemed plug and play and it worked for 3 months.

 

[Jhalko]

If you are in the Denver metro area try another dealer. Heated seats causing all of that sounds dubious.

 

[hearno]

Here we go again, these dealerships are just ridiculous these days.

Welllllllllll... I'll play devil's advocate. Let's remember that the two members that are experiencing weird electrical issues happen to be the two guys that have modified the vehicle.

Both issues could be legit failures or directly related to the work that was performed. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the work an aftermarket shop did could be responsible for the issues or the new alternator could be the issue for the other truck. It's a risk you run when you do things like that.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

Sounds similar to the recent [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] thread. A mod/addition is made - time passes; then all holy electrical hell breaks loose.

 

[wfo9]

Also, do your research and first verify the seats were a simple plug and play...
but don't be afraid to go into the dealer and be a very demanding customer, If the service writer tries to turn you away again with some BS about the seats start asking pointed questions and have him write down his answers.

1. What diagnostic step led you to the conclusion that my seats are causing this issue.
2. Do you have any DTCs or trouble shooting step failures to prove this theory.
3. If You are denying my warranty. Please state so and your reasons why.

I don't like being that way, but that is often all these jokers understand. They make a living by playing a shell game with gullible customers So it usually shocks them when you call their bluff and start pushing the issue. If they really keep this going, take the issue to the general manager and also get him to write his statement down about why they are denying you service.

I've used this technique once before and the attitude completely changed when I got to the GM.

 

[wfo9]

Welllllllllll... I'll play devil's advocate. Let's remember that the two members that are experiencing weird electrical issues happen to be the two guys that have modified the vehicle.

Both issues could be legit failures or directly related to the work that was performed. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the work an aftermarket shop did could be responsible for the issues or the new alternator could be the issue for the other truck. It's a risk you run when you do things like that.

LOL, these are not the first folks experiencing electrical issues.

Toyota has a solid track record here. They also have an infamous record of denying it.

I know I'm being an ass hat, but this just make no sense at face value. Anyone who has a history adding accessories knows it is simply not that complicated.

I hope both members get it figured out. The alternator one was slightly plausible, this one seems way, way out there. The alternator issue was more concerning because the tech would not even touch the vehicle.

 

[Biggcrisp]

This is my take:

Two different 4Runner owners drive in to two different dealerships in two different regions with two different trim levels and two different year trucks. One 2010 pre-refresh and one 2015 post refresh.

The owners explain issues with the trucks. Service writers operate the trucks and everything is perfect at that time. Trucks are still under warranty. Did the owners instruct the shop to pull codes and if codes are present: replace any parts/wires associated with codes?

What are we missing? Service writers are very good at writing what happened. We are missing their documentation. If the trucks got to service techs there would be paper trails. The paper trails would say what codes/conditions was observed.

My wife’s 2008 highlander would start randomly honking the alarm horn when it would be sitting outside. Didn’t matter what the weather was or where we were. We could be hiking over hill and dale and we would hear it calling out like a lost child. The condition never repeated while sitting in our garage unlocked. We eventually traded up and in the end were happy with the ownership experience.

So I don’t doubt that the conditions described are real. I just think that these issues will not be resolved without some component either being “re-flashed” or replaced. This is where the service writer comes out and says: hay, you need X performed and if the condition turns out to be a warranty issue there will be no charge. X cost $10,000 dollars. Sign here and we will have your truck back to you in 6 months.

 

[1engineer]

Here we go again, these dealerships are just ridiculous these days. Blaming the heated seats and unwilling to disconnect a harness (when it is just Toyota parts). What a bunch of lazy bums.

Toyota customer service is the pits these days. There seem to be more and more threads like this these days. Most service department and techs don't want to deal with you for service unless they can make easy money. If it is complicated, they typically just turn you away or say "not reproducible".... or "caused by your aftermarket parts and modifications" not covered. It's not legal for them to do this, they have to prove the problem is caused by your modifications/parts. Once they have proof, they can turn you away without breaking the warranty contract, but not until that point.

You are going to need to find a different dealership. This one is obviously a joke. Maybe someone in your area knows of a better one. If they can't do better, you might be able to get [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] to provide some troubleshooting steps for them to follow. He seems to be a really good Toyota tech and has helped others here.

Also, going to the shop that did the seats might be something to try (as a sanity check). I don't see how that could cause all these problems, but just get them to explain exactly what was done and what was touched. Typically, you just plug in to an existing harness...

Did the dealership bother to hookup to the diagnostic port and see if any codes were present....?



You might have to convince them with a lawyer. I don't understand why people put up with this.

One more thing, try disconnecting the battery for a bit. That usually resets the body control modules. I had a Tahoe where the remote start would stop working every few months. Disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes would resolve it, but then it would happen again in a few months. I never bothered to find the root of the problem since it was an old truck with a ton of miles on it.

Man. You really hate dealers lol. I have a great dealer. Know most of the techs, my oil is changed by a guy that's been at the dealership for 15 years, the master tech has been there 20 years and they know their stuff.
Point is all dealers are not bad. Dealers are NOT Toyota. They are contractors that happen to sell Toyota.
OP it might or might not be the seats and might or might not be what circuit the installer tied into to get power for the heated seats. If they pulled power (or grounded or skinned a wire thats touching etc) from the wrong place or something then it could be the seats.
Where did they get the heated seat power?

 

[wfo9]

I will admit that I do dislike dealers very much. I'm extremely jaded.

I know good ones exist, I just don't seem to come in contact with many.

If the problem is not reproducible, I cut them some slack. But if it is right in front of their face and they just blame aftermarket parts or the customer without lifting a finger... that is not acceptable.

That sounds like what basically happened in both of these cases.

 

[Ezekiel2222]

Woah, a lot of discussion in only one day!

I totally agree with what a lot of you are saying. As a tech-minded person myself, my first troubleshooting step would be to investigate anything that has changed recently; in this case the heated seats. However, now that I have basically ruled those out entirely (with the exception of the switches), I think it's time to move on. And that's where I have some good news!

I called back the dealer yesterday afternoon and explained how I disconnected all the wires connecting the seats to the floor, and I'm still having problems. I recommended that I bring the vehicle back in so they could attempt to locate the true cause of the problems, and thankfully the service manager actually agreed!

Of course, he wouldn't offer me a loaner because he was "unsure what the total man hours would be", but he was more than willing to let me rent a vehicle... When I asked him to clarify that my options were to A. Pay money for a rental, or B. Miss work, he finally went and talked to his supervisor, who said they could give me a ride to and from work.

I'm hoping the issue is an one-time anomaly and gets quickly resolved.

Edit:
Just to clarify for those who asked, the heated seats were installed at the end of October, and I first had these problems at the end of November, so for a month everything was fine. While that doesn't necessarily rule anything out, it does make it seem a little odd. I'm not bringing it in to the Toyota dealership again until Wednesday, so I may take it by the installer this weekend and just ask them if there is any possibility their work is causing these problems. Maybe I'll even have them unhook the switches...

 

[dekeman]

Sounds like the truck was struck by lightning.
Sorry if that's not very enlightening.

 

[Titanpat57]

My guess is some genius tapped into something hot, that they shouldn't have...it's going to wreak havoc until you uncover it,,

 

[Ducmonsta]

The description sounds like a loose battery terminal. It's the simplest fix. Check the terminals and see if you can move them around with your bare hands. I guess it's possible that the "dealer recommended shop" unhooked the battery while installing the seat heaters.

 

[wfo9]

At least the dealer is working with you now. Hopefully they will diagnose the issue and fix it promptly.

Keep us posted on the outcome and don't be afraid to be demanding if they start giving you the run around. It works like a charm in those situations.

BTW, did you try disconnecting the battery for a few minutes to reset the BCMs.

 

[Ezekiel2222]

Well I got my vehicle back from the dealer today, but it's not exactly the result I was hoping for.

They now think that the Body Control Module (BCM) might be fried, and it might have been the heated seats that fried it! I spoke directly with the service manager because my service rep was having a hard time explaining it. Anyway, the manager said that he has already confirmed that the Trail and Trail Premium have different BCM's, and he said he would give me the part numbers later today.

He will be placing a call to the "Toyota Engineers" today to figure out if it is possible that my seat heaters fried the BCM, and if it is possible to install a Trail Premium BCM into my Trail. I also requested that he ask the engineers why my seat heaters worked at all! If my BCM does not support the factory heated seats, then how did they work fine for a month???

Unfortunately their diagnosis is still speculation at this point. They won't know if the BCM is truly fried until they replace it with a new one, and even then they won't know for sure that it was the heated seats that fried it.

 

[gm350reratliff]

Wow, I'd like to know what circuit the seat installers tapped into. Should be a key on circuit. I would think a fuse would blow before there was damage to the BCM but maybe not in your case. At this point, I would be holding the leather installers liable. Also, I would find out how much power the seat heaters pull.

Once you figure this all out , when the bun warmers are hooked up again, you may need to isolate them with a relay (or two) and run a separate fused feed direct to the battery.