reelamin
New member
Do you shoot jacketed or cast in your handguns. Do you ever shoot the cheap Wincheters, Remington, bulk bullets just for practice in your rifles.
What Bullets?
- Thread starter reelamin
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Do you shoot jacketed or cast in your handguns. Do you ever shoot the cheap Wincheters, Remington, bulk bullets just for practice in your rifles.
reelamin
New member
Im sure this will open up a can of worms/opinions- but a good carbine with proper ammunition is the best overall choice for HD for TONS of reasons. Go read Dr. Roberts write up of why. Docgkr on light fighter.[/QUOTE]
I can agree it is a good weapon for HD...best...not so sure. I am looking at HD as real distances of 10-20 feet max. Obviously you have lots of experience with different guns. Just putting out a counter point of a semi auto shotgun with mag extension.
I give you the carbine round is deadly....but don't you think putting bullets into your target is the most important thing. I agree the shotgun is going to have a lot more recoil per shot....but it is also putting out a lot more projectiles in a wider pattern.
Open to info...and hearing a different perspective.
I can agree it is a good weapon for HD...best...not so sure. I am looking at HD as real distances of 10-20 feet max. Obviously you have lots of experience with different guns. Just putting out a counter point of a semi auto shotgun with mag extension.
I give you the carbine round is deadly....but don't you think putting bullets into your target is the most important thing. I agree the shotgun is going to have a lot more recoil per shot....but it is also putting out a lot more projectiles in a wider pattern.
Open to info...and hearing a different perspective.
Sleeter
New member
Gunslinger-13
New member
I can agree it is a good weapon for HD...best...not so sure. I am looking at HD as real distances of 10-20 feet max. Obviously you have lots of experience with different guns. Just putting out a counter point of a semi auto shotgun with mag extension.
I give you the carbine round is deadly....but don't you think putting bullets into your target is the most important thing. I agree the shotgun is going to have a lot more recoil per shot....but it is also putting out a lot more projectiles in a wider pattern.
Open to info...and hearing a different perspective.[/QUOTE]
Various reasons why multiple projectiles are not ideal for HD- collateral
Damage being front and center.
Do you live in an ur an area? Have kids or a spouse in the house, or pets?
Multiple projectiles are not ideal in the above scenarios. If you are alone on a ranch with 100 acres, that can change. But still a shotgun and handguns are not ideal when compared to carbine with proper ammunition selections in MOST scenarios.
We have the issue of over penetration. You'd think a handgun round or shotgun round would penetrate less than a .223 rem of 5.56 NATO round, but this is not the case.
A common concern for people when trying to decide which caliber to choose for self defense is overpenetration inside the home. Many believe that pistols calibers would automatically penetrate less than rifle bullets, or that light fragmenting bullets will allow you to not be concerned with overpenetration. In regards to the latter - this is a false assumption. Take, for example, the Glaser Safety Slug. It is a pre-fragmented bullet with very shallow and completely penetration in bare gelatin. When fired through drywall, the bullet fails to expand and behaves as a FMJ solid. Another example would be using a lightweight varmint bullet in an AR, thinking that the shallow penetration in tissue would be sufficient to not worry about persons in adjacent rooms in case of a miss. The question I would ask is this: If you knew that there is a person in a room behind the bad guy and you're only separated by drywall, would you really risk taking a shot and rely solely on the bullet to not hurt or kill someone in case of a miss?
As far as the idea that pistol bullets will inherently penetrate less than rifle cartridges, take a look at this graph comparing common weapons one might employ in the role of self-defense:
Notice that the penetration of all these calibers using high-quality ammunition is approximately the same, quite contrary to common belief. The reason pistol calibers penetrate quite deeply is, as has been mentioned before, the fact that momentum is the key factor here. The slower, heavier bullets retain more momentum and can thus penetrate as much as a bullet launched at much higher velocity. Bullet construction obviously plays a key role as well.
The situation won't change very much if drywall is introduced into the equation:
There is not much that has to be said about this picture; the .223 calibers rapidly lose their momentum after penetrating drywall first, while the heavier bullets do not. Note that the pistol calibers in the example above penetrate to approximately 50cm (~20"). That would lead me to believe that the bullets chosen for that test didn't expand and thus further highlights the need to choose ammunition which passes the FBI test protocols. A Winchester Ranger-T bullet penetrates approximately 15" (~38cm) after encountering wallboard - about the same as the .308 155gr AMAX.
So again collateral damage becomes an issue.
Now let's talk capacity. Shotguns, most anyways are limited to
Around 8 rounds. Yes, some can take and some less, but let's use 8. Most handguns are 15-17 rounds for 9mm.
An ar15 can take a 30 or 40 round and greater capacity magazines.
Looking at FBI data on real world shootings and gun fights, calibers rarely ever matter the most, it's most hits on target.
So let's think about that. The data reveals that a greater amount of hits on target is what put down an assailant. Not the caliber. There are tons of fun fights with multiple .357 mag, multiple .44 mag hits, multiple .45 ACP hits or multiple 00 hits and the assailant won't go down, be it drugs or just being a part of that small percentage of folks who do not give up until bled out- capacity matters. Big time.
So again the capacity of a carbine is king.
The capacity along with the more desireable level of penetration and not under or over penetrating along with ease of use gives it the nod as best for HD in MOST cases.
I have tons more info to provide, but need to get some shit done so inwill edit my post and add more later.
Here's the full write up by Doctor Gary Roberts, the foremost authority on the topic:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/
Here's another link to arfcom with a good deal of data on proper ammunition selection by caliber- it's mostly the same data from the first link also:
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
Dr Roberts on light fighter :
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/home-defense-long-guns
People often say "if X number of rounds of X caliber doesn't get the job done, then nothing will..." that simply isn't true when looking at real world data.
Sometimes it takes many, many rounds of various calibers to stop the threat, sometimes a single .25 ACP placed properly gets it done. No situation is the same. So we must prepare for the worst and hope for The best when selecting an HD firearm and ammunition.
All of that being said- choose what's best for you and your specific needs/area/situation. What you are most familiar with, have the highest degree of training with, and are most proficient with. And- PLEASE choose high quality ammunition that passes FBI tests/protocols.
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Gunslinger-13
New member
Yep, speer gold dots are good to go, bonded, high quality, lots of
fBI gel tests, lots of real world shoots and good data and they are one of the few high quality HD rounds you can just buy the bullet your self and roll your own with.
Yes, the numbers I referenced are product codes. Easier to search for them online and find pricing.
I shoot mostly my own reloads also, but I can't get a lot of what I want to load with bullet wise, like Talons- you can't just buy the bullet and load yourself, so
Factory it is. Same with federal HST and Most of the better HD bullets.
reelamin
New member
So again collateral damage becomes an issue.
Now let's talk capacity. Shotguns, most anyways are limited to
Around 8 rounds. Yes, some can take and some less, but let's use 8. Most handguns are 15-17 rounds for 9mm.
An ar15 can take a 30 or 40 round and greater capacity magazines.
Looking at FBI data on real world shootings and gun fights, calibers rarely ever matter the most, it's most hits on target.
So let's think about that. The data reveals that a greater amount of hits on target is what put down an assailant. Not the caliber. There are tons of fun fights with multiple .357 mag, multiple .44 mag hits, multiple .45 ACP hits or multiple 00 hits and the assailant won't go down, be it drugs or just being a part of that small percentage of folks who do not give up until bled out- capacity matters. Big time.
So again the capacity of a carbine is king.
The capacity along with the more desireable level of penetration and not under or over penetrating along with ease of use gives it the nod as best for HD in MOST cases.
All of that being said- choose what's best for you and your specific needs/area/situation. What you are most familiar with, have the highest degree of training with, and are most proficient with. And- PLEASE choose high quality ammunition that passes FBI tests/protocols.[/QUOTE]
LOL...It will take me a few months to read all that data and studies. Just on the surface. I understand collateral damage...and it should be considered. Why I like the smaller buck shot and larger bird shot...jf they miss the intended target...less penetration.
7 rounds of 4 buck is over 100 .25 caliber rounds is one way to look at it. Yes I know they are lighter....but I'm going with the percentages of how many are going to be on target. Yes no question a center fire rifle will do more damage if it hits the target.
Without a doubt family is paramount. The last thing I am worried about if I'm having to shoot someone in my house is my dog....LOL...that's just me! Its a dog and I can get a new one!
I also agree for anyone to use what they are comfortable and have confidence in. I also don't think there is any one that is the only thing to use. Luckily we live in America and we have choices!!
Now let's talk capacity. Shotguns, most anyways are limited to
Around 8 rounds. Yes, some can take and some less, but let's use 8. Most handguns are 15-17 rounds for 9mm.
An ar15 can take a 30 or 40 round and greater capacity magazines.
Looking at FBI data on real world shootings and gun fights, calibers rarely ever matter the most, it's most hits on target.
So let's think about that. The data reveals that a greater amount of hits on target is what put down an assailant. Not the caliber. There are tons of fun fights with multiple .357 mag, multiple .44 mag hits, multiple .45 ACP hits or multiple 00 hits and the assailant won't go down, be it drugs or just being a part of that small percentage of folks who do not give up until bled out- capacity matters. Big time.
So again the capacity of a carbine is king.
The capacity along with the more desireable level of penetration and not under or over penetrating along with ease of use gives it the nod as best for HD in MOST cases.
All of that being said- choose what's best for you and your specific needs/area/situation. What you are most familiar with, have the highest degree of training with, and are most proficient with. And- PLEASE choose high quality ammunition that passes FBI tests/protocols.[/QUOTE]
LOL...It will take me a few months to read all that data and studies. Just on the surface. I understand collateral damage...and it should be considered. Why I like the smaller buck shot and larger bird shot...jf they miss the intended target...less penetration.
7 rounds of 4 buck is over 100 .25 caliber rounds is one way to look at it. Yes I know they are lighter....but I'm going with the percentages of how many are going to be on target. Yes no question a center fire rifle will do more damage if it hits the target.
Without a doubt family is paramount. The last thing I am worried about if I'm having to shoot someone in my house is my dog....LOL...that's just me! Its a dog and I can get a new one!
I also agree for anyone to use what they are comfortable and have confidence in. I also don't think there is any one that is the only thing to use. Luckily we live in America and we have choices!!
reelamin
New member
Who me?? I probably would use those two interchangeably!
Gunslinger-13....you got me thinking today while out shooting. Was shooting some dueling tree with a buddy. He was shooting a 9....and I was shooting my 10 (FULL LOADS!!! not some wimpy FBI down load). No...he did not win any of the duals....or the accuracy contests.
But...when he shot my pistol on the tree contests...he could not hit very well....and said wow...that thing is hard to control when shooting fast. We had discussed the carbine...shotgun...inside out home during the day. He uses a shotgun also...but we are going to do some comparison shooting. Not testing bullet performance (leave that to the studies) but how quickly we can shoot and hit what we are aiming at. Not only hit it...but hit it where we want to with a AR v Shotgun. It will be a interesting to see how it works out.
Thanks for causing me to think!!
Gunslinger-13
New member
LOL...It will take me a few months to read all that data and studies. Just on the surface. I understand collateral damage...and it should be considered. Why I like the smaller buck shot and larger bird shot...jf they miss the intended target...less penetration.
7 rounds of 4 buck is over 100 .25 caliber rounds is one way to look at it. Yes I know they are lighter....but I'm going with the percentages of how many are going to be on target. Yes no question a center fire rifle will do more damage if it hits the target.
Without a doubt family is paramount. The last thing I am worried about if I'm having to shoot someone in my house is my dog....LOL...that's just me! Its a dog and I can get a new one!
I also agree for anyone to use what they are comfortable and have confidence in. I also don't think there is any one that is the only thing to use. Luckily we live in America and we have choices!![/QUOTE]
00 buckshot has been shown to penetrate MORE than .223 and 5.56 rounds. Both in gel tests and through dry wall.
Birdshot- of any flavor- does not penetrate deeply enough in gel tests.
When taking on multiple threats, a shotgun falls well short, as does a handgun.
I do not like to kill any living creature unless it is 100% intentional and with logical reason to do so. Thus the discussion of collateral damage. Be it human or otherwise.
A person should absolutely use what they are most familiar with and shoot best with.
Starting from scratch, I would ALWAYS recommend a carbine in 5.56/.223 with proper ammo selection for HD and SD. Versatile, modular, ease of use and training, relatively inexpensive to train and support- great penetration without overpenetration, high capacity, low recoil, etc, etc, etc.
Firearms are tools. Certain tools are better for certain jobs. The AR-15/M4 rifle happens to be a tools that is quite useful in MANY scenarios.
If I was taking on a single threat in a controlled environment with little to no concern for collateral damage- shotgun with 00 buck or specialty slugs would be my preferrre choice.
Situations in every day life where I need to be stealthy and clandestine while working or out and about among The sheep- the pistol is king with a back up Snubby wheel gun, carbine and chest rig in the truck just in case.
Hidden and far away it's a medium to large caliber bolt gun (or DMR/AR) with good optics.
Everything else is pretty much a carbine of some flavor.
Gunslinger-13
New member
I just love talking guns and everything related.
I constantly research, train, question my own choices and push myself beyond my comfort and limits.
Love to get others thinking about the same and challenging/broadening my knowledge base
Take care buddy!
green_manalishi
New member
Granted I've been out of the game for a few years, but my go to is the 45 cal Thomson Center Superglide sabot. Same bullet as the Hornady SST but the Superglide sabot makes loading SIGNIFICANTLY easier.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
reelamin
New member
Thanks....mainly looking at Elk on target performance. Are you personally aware of any? Not worried about killing a deer, but Elk are some noticeably tougher animals and much harder to kill.
I have some 300gr 44 and 45 Hornady XTP and a three different Sabot's for them to start out with. Hope to be able to get to our bench/range in a week or two if the snow will melt some more.
9mm Gold Dots
.45 I load both FMJ's and JHP's that I buy bulk
.45 LC I buy commercial
.223 I load 40gr Ballistic tips
.300 AAC hornady 125 gr
.308 Hornady 150 gr
.280 Rem Barnes 140 gr
.338 Mag Barnes 225 gr
I will also buy ammo. I buy all my subsonic rounds - don't want to screw up and have an unstable load cause a baffle strike.
.45 I load both FMJ's and JHP's that I buy bulk
.45 LC I buy commercial
.223 I load 40gr Ballistic tips
.300 AAC hornady 125 gr
.308 Hornady 150 gr
.280 Rem Barnes 140 gr
.338 Mag Barnes 225 gr
I will also buy ammo. I buy all my subsonic rounds - don't want to screw up and have an unstable load cause a baffle strike.
AZHellfish
New member
Those Black Talons were a great bullet in the day, but I think the Gold Dot series is a way better bullet for defense/duty purposes in the modern era.
There are several good Youtube ballstics test channels (and also a bunch of garbage) if you are interested.
Now...
If you want to talk bullets...
Federal Gold Medal Match is changing projectiles this year after a long ass-kicking run with Sierra Match KIngs. You can find old school FGMM-SMK 175 308s for as low as $17 a box right now if you look.
There are several good Youtube ballstics test channels (and also a bunch of garbage) if you are interested.
Now...
If you want to talk bullets...
Federal Gold Medal Match is changing projectiles this year after a long ass-kicking run with Sierra Match KIngs. You can find old school FGMM-SMK 175 308s for as low as $17 a box right now if you look.
ToyoDriver
New member
What bullets are they switching to?
I use 147gr Gold Dots in my 9mms.
64gr Gold Dots in my AR15s
Handloaded .223 with 77gr TMKs for my SPR
I try to buy jacketed 22LR so my suppressors don't get filled with lead, but its still so damn hard to find I get what I can get.
AZHellfish
New member
Berger bullets now in FGMM.
Gunslinger-13
New member
No one is talking about black talons- IE 1980's/1990's tech ammo.
Winchester ranger-T series/talons are evolved from the original black talon design, they are not the same design or tech.
They are good to go. Just like Speer GDHP.
Here's a good list (Specific to 9mm) of ammo that has been consistent in properly prepared FBI gelatin tests and real world shootings:
Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) such as loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dor 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal HST 124gr JHP +P (P9HST3)
Of those the best and most consistent performers are Winchester ranger-t, speer gold dots and federal HST.
This list was put together and all ammo was exstensively tested and vetted by Dr. Gary Roberts- the foremost authority on the subject.
I linked to a lot of his data in an earlier post herein this thread if you are interested in checking it out.
I can agree it is a good weapon for HD...best...not so sure. I am looking at HD as real distances of 10-20 feet max. Obviously you have lots of experience with different guns. Just putting out a counter point of a semi auto shotgun with mag extension.
I give you the carbine round is deadly....but don't you think putting bullets into your target is the most important thing. I agree the shotgun is going to have a lot more recoil per shot....but it is also putting out a lot more projectiles in a wider pattern.
Open to info...and hearing a different perspective.[/QUOTE]
BOX-O-Truth is where you will find the answers to your questions. Including what has more over penetration.
