What makes these trucks so reliable?

[4wd-n-archery]

I just sold my subaru outback which I did like. I want something with a little more umph you only get from a lifted 4x4. At first I was/am considering a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Looking to buy what I can afford which will put me right around a 1999-2001. The other vehicle which keeps coming up again and again in my quest for the perfect expedition/daily driver is the third gen Toyota 4Runner.
When I think of Grand Cherokees, they seem fun, a pretty good candidate for a lift, but reliability does not always come to the forefront in their descriptions.
In all my research on 4 Runners, reliability seems to be the first word in their description. I regularly see them for sale with 180, 190, 200,000 miles, and they look like 50k. Jeep Cherokees for sale with those miles almost always have had engines, trans, transfer cases replaced.

I am not looking for anyone to give me a huge write up detailing every virtue of the 3rd gen 4runner. I am not looking for any Jeep bashing either. Just any stories anyone has about some quality they have noticed about their Toyota which may not be quite up to the same quality in other similar suvs. A part, a system, interior, exterior, why are they so trouble free for so long?

I am going to use whatever I buy for camping, hunting, and family adventures. I will put a lift, most likely 3-4", and most likely OME. 33" tires, gearing, limited slip. Longevity, reliability, capability, and efficiency.

 

[steverstrike]

well.. My brother has a 2000 grand cherokee and I have a 2001 4runner... His grand cherokee is such a beast, its the V8.. That thing has taken so much damage and still runs perfectly fine, he came across a few problems with the brakes and the interior is starting to fall apart but other then that, its a solid car. (he has driven it cross country 3 times back and forth though)

The 4runner i love, i have had no problems and honestly I dont take care of it at all, I always go 300-700 miles over the oil change time and Really just beat the crap out of it, Its slow as hell now with 90,000 but the interior is perfect, the engine works fine no noises or problems. Really its a great car

both are awesome in the snow and rain, I would say the V8 is what makes my brothers jeep.. other then that Id take my 4runner over it any day. Except those leather seats he has is great.. he does have little issues with water leaking in the trunk..

Go test them both out, they are so similiar in my book I cant say get one or the other.. They have both served my family well.. And that jeep is such a tank

 

[GottaBeTRD]

you'll probably hear some sort of bashing on this but it would be the same thing in a Jeep Forum against the 4runner. Now i dont want to talk trash so sorry if it sounds like i do, but besides being very reliable by personal experience,

As of proof, I always like to read the consumer guides and see what are the best cars to drive vs the worst and every magazine i have seen the 4runner has been listed in the best most reliable to own while "SOME" of the jeeps are unfortunately under the worst used cars to buy. I'm not sure how they got their results but to me thats a huge thing there.

It's a tough topic without saying bad things, about other cars but i don't know i have tons of experience around all kinds of trucks and cars and jeeps with previous jobs and in reality even though my runner has 117K miles it still drove better than a lot of the almost new vehicles. This may be stereotypical but the 4runner just built solid.

 

[4wd-n-archery]

Good stuff

Thanks guys
That is exactly what I am talking about. I like the way steverstrike had some experiences with both grand cherokee, and 4runner. I felt the same way. The v8 in the jeep is awesome fun, but the fit and finish leaves something to be desired over time.
Good stuff.
Anyone else have any observances?
Is "observances" a word?

 

[Maritimer]

I find the wheel wells to be extremely solid. I also love the steering wheel feel, and the the way the rear seats fold down and lock back up.

 

[4wd-n-archery]

Mmmm. I have not noticed the steering wheel in the 4runner. I did notice the leather wrapped steering wheels on all the jeeps I have seen, were pretty tattered, and wrinkled. The hard plastic, leather look wheel on my subaru was nice and durable.
I will have to pay attention.

 

[AKAndy]

Take my experience for what it's worth- which is just anecdotal evidence- but as someone who has owned both a 99 Grand Cherokee and three 4Runners (an '89, and two '96's), there is no comparison IMO. 4Runner is the winner hands-down.

I'm not a jeep hater by any stretch, but my Grand Cherokee was nothing but trouble. It had about 80K on it when I bought it. The 4L in-line 6 cyl was a great motor, and it handled nicely, almost plush compared to the truck feel that the 4Runner has. I ended up having to put about $1000 worth of brake work into it the first 2 months I had it, including all 4 calipers. Then a crank sensor went out, and then the auto transmission wouldn't shift from 2nd-3rd when it was below freezing until it had about 10 minutes to warm up, and on and on and on...

I did a little dance at my good fortune when someone hit me and totalled the Jeep. I took the insurance money and bought my first '96 Runner. Had it for a year, when I got hit and totalled again (not such good luck!), and then bought my current '96. During the last two years with my two '96's, both of which have had around 160K, the only work I've done has been one starter, a clutch master cylinder, and front brake pads/rotors. Motors and drivetrains have been bulletproof, offroading capabilities are great, I like the "truck" feel of the Runner's much better, and I really trust their reliability more. Seems like everyone I've known who had a Grand Cherokee has put at least one new transmission in it. One friend of mine had to replace the tranny on his twice. Another friend had major electrical problems. I drove my '89 Runner to 300K, and hope to get at least that much out of my '96. I wouldn't even consider buying another Grand Cherokee, even one with less than 100K on the clock.

 

[SCRunner12]

I don't have much experience with 3rd gens yet, but I have a lot of experience with Grand Cherokees. My girlfriend has an 04 2wd V6 GC and I' not a fan. I don't know how tall you are but that thing has so many blind spots. Being 6'1" it has a horrible blind spot with the rear view mirror being too low on the windsheild. I can't see cars at stop signs. It is in the perfect spot, where cars to the right that are stopped at a 4 way stop are completely behind the mirror. I have pulled out into the intersection many times to find out there was a car in my blind spot. I know it sounds stupid, but it really is dangerous and very annoying to deal with. Just check that out when you test drive. Her brother said the same thing and he is a few inches shorter.
The V6 is a decent engine with not bad mileage, but the water pump went out at 60k on her car. Overall I'm not a fan, especially since my parents 03 4runner which is also a base model is so much nicer than the 04 GC. The Overland though may be better with the V8 and all the options. Good luck with your decision.

 

[ChildrenOfBodom]

Our 4Runner's absolutely were built with better quality materials. I have dealt with many Chrysler made vehicles in my line of work, and they're really just not up to par with quality. Everything from stupid little things like sun visor clips and headlights oxidizing to major engine problems and such. I dislike the fake plastic feeling interiors and cut pile interior fabrics.

I have never seen a Chrysler made vehicle, including a Jeep, that was as neglected as a Toyota can be (mine was horribly undermaintained but still ran like a beast when I got it), had as many miles as mine (I only have 178k, yes, only) and still ran as good as mine, looked as good, etc... at least in my line of work.

User downpour11 has 377 thousand miles on original motor and transmission, two hundred thousand more than I do. I have never ever seen Heeps that last that long in the first place. He also has 35" tires and daily drives his. Hell, they hardly ever make the 200,000 mark.

So many people tell me, "Oh, you hate Jeep because you drive a Toyota." No, I drive a Toyota because I'd rather not be stuck on the side of the road, or in a ditch, or in the shop, with a Jeep.

I also dislike their design, the Jeep looks like it's a plastic fading nightmare. That is purely opinion, and I think they're ugly, boaty things.

American cars in general, there's a reason for all the bail outs, there's a reason for the cash for clunkers, and there's a reason that the junk yards are full of them, they're pieces of ****. Chrysler in itself has been tossed around between owners like a hot potato lately.

I am sure there's way better examples out there, but I am just not in the mood to type any essays.

 

[AKAndy]

Regarding "What makes these trucks so reliable?", I heard a very interesting show on "This American Life" a while back which talks about a California automobile plant that was opened as a joint effort between GM and Toyota back in the 80s. Apparently GM was hoping that the partnership would allow GM to learn some of Toyota's secrets on how they were able to produce higher quality vehicles at a lower cost. It was funny to hear how the two companies' philosophies clashed from the get-go. The Toyota production line workers were encouraged to hit the "stop" button when they saw a quality issue, so it could be fixed. The GM workers were discouraged from doing anything to stop/slow down production, and would sometimes even be disciplined if they hit the "stop" button on the line. It's no wonder there has been such a disparity in quality levels between American and Japanese cars.

Podcast can be found here: NUMMI | This American Life

 

[Deceptiwave]

Everybody I know that has owned a Chrysler product has had transmission issues and eventual replacement. My moms Intrepid, my buddy's Grand Cherokee, a Dodge 2wd shop truck, and a PT cruiser.
Also, look around the world. What brand/style of vehicle can be seen on every continent and in almost every country in the world? The Hi-Lux truck.
And parts are not always available in a remote jungle town for your Ford/Chevy/Jeep. Same for the Toyota, but I see more beat up landcruisers still kickin in Africa then I see Jeeps.

 

[StreetKill831]

My '98 has over 207k on it and runs like a champ. Have never had to make any major repairs on it other than stuff that will have to be done on most any vehicle like brakes and such.

My '90 has about 179k on it and until I got it was probably treated like ****. Fixed a couple wires and now it starts up every time.

My brothers '96 has over 250k on it and had never had a problem until he hit one of those cement/metal post and cracked a head. Replaced the head and a few other things and now it runs like a champ as well.

The bodies of 4runners are extremely resistant to rust. That's why you can see a 4runner with over 200k on it and it looks like it's a year old. The bodies are super strong.

The interior stays looking good with little care and can take an unbelievable amount of abuse.

The IFS(independent front suspension) makes them very stable around turns and in overall driving, yet they are still extremely capable. IMHO more capable than a Cherokee, even when they still had solid front axles. I feel more stable taking turns in my 4runner than I do in my parents Accord going the same speed.

 

[brian2sun]

What makes these trucks so reliable?

Toyota.

 

[NickF]

My parents bought a 1998 Grand Charokee in 2000. Within 2 weeks, the oil pan LITERALLY dropped and leaked ALL OVER our driveway. They brought that sucker right back.
Then, came a 1995 4runner "beater". Had over 200k before a bad accident with my father (who had a seizure at the wheel) crashed into a rock.
Then came my 1997, which I eventually bought from them last year. We've had the car since '05. It now has 125k on it and runs like a champ.

All that its needed in the time we've owned it has been brakes, tires, timing belt and water pump, an exhaust, a rear bumper (which notoriously rots), rear springs, front shock and struts.


Anyway, 3.4 V6 isn't a Chrysler V8, and that is the only thing that Jeep has in its advantage. IMO the reliability and ease of maintenance outweigh a little bit of power and I'm still a "kid" (I'm 20).

 

[fightman80]

In response to the OP's original question, and can't be said any better than an mechanic I met a few months ago:

"These trucks are just so well designed!" :driving:

 

[4wd-n-archery]

Can anyone site a specific detail of what is better. Maybe it has to do with a certain material they use in their engines, a transfercase drive system (gear or chain), a rustproofing process. These are just examples. I am convinced they are the most reliable choice, and I don't really have to know why, it is just a curiosity.
For example I read in one of the 4th or 5th gen posts that they may not reach the longevity of the 3rd gen because they switched to aluminum blocks to make the vehicles lighter and achieve better gas mileage. The iron blocks in the 3rd gen's 3.4 is just a stronger system.
For the purposes of my post I am more concerned with longevity than mpg, although the increased mpg of the aluminum block may be a more important tradeoff to someone else.
It is insight like this that kind of has me considering a 4runner from 1999-2002.
That is not to say that a 4th gen 4runner is not more reliable than many other vehicles, but if you are rolling the dice the 3rd gen's engine may outlast it by 100k.

Lots of good examples so far. Thanks

I do agree with the poster who didn't like the fading plastic jeep parts. And every jeep I have seen approaching 100k has had terribly faded, yellow, headlights. Seems the Toyotas remain clear.

 

[Nelsonmd]

If you are looking for these specific little details, then you likely won't find the real reasons that Toyotas are more reliable.

The bottom line is a couple things:
1. American made cars have a sizeable cost adder due to union labor (I have generally heard anywhere from $1k-3k depending on the vehicle). That money has to come from somewhere, and it comes from design, choosing recycled metal over virgin metal, not doing extra heat treating, using plastic where you otherwise would have had metal. That kind of thing is done all the time, and has to be done to make up for the extra cost of labor.

2. As people have said, quality culture. This is a bit baffling to me in some ways because the Japanese specifically do some stuff regarding quality that is pretty sketchy, but they are also more willing to spend money on quality than the american companies (I know this from experience in making parts for both Japanese and American car companies). I sometime go back and forth between "Man, no wonder these American companies are getting whooped by the Asians" and "Geez, how do the Japanese make such good cars?". Most of the time though it is the first.

Interesting point though, it was an American that first taught Japanese quality culture to the Japanese after he couldn't find a listening ear in America. Oops, our bad. The Asians (at least in the last 70 years or so) have been a little more willing to adapt than we have.

3. They are making different cars. Typically the American cars are design to sell at a lower price point than the Japanese equivalent, so they are intentionally lower quality.

4. Often times the American cars have more gadgets in them, which drives non-drivetrain costs up. This one I think is equalizing a bit with all these navigation systems becoming standard, but I have definitely noticed this fact.

5. I think another factor is that the asian brand are also making their vehicles for the international market, so it need to meet multiple needs for the same base design. The US companies really don't have much international market.

THat is all I can think of right now

 

[4wd-n-archery]

Those are some excellent points. I live in Michigan about 30 miles from Detroit, and I hate the unions. Over the years I have witnessed dozens of union workers who would punch in and leave work, have someone else punch in for them, have secret sleeping areas in the shop, steel supplies and parts, drunk on the job, and always under the protective wing of the UAW. In my opinion it is a large factor in the companies failure. And what did the government do when they took over. Gave half the company to the UAW.
It is an interesting point how these overwhelming labor costs can and do affect quality.

 

[topdown4runner]

As far as engine reliability, from what I have read, the 3.4 engine was designed as an industrial engine by Hino.
Hino is a Toyota company that makes heavy trucks, machines, dock loading machines, etc... in essence, a stronger, more reliable engine.
The Toyota T100 was also a Hino design. Very reliable truck using the same 3.4 engine. I have one.

 

[runrunner]

If you are interested in going the Jeep route, you may want to check out the regular XJ Cherokee vs the Grand. Find one without the electronic gizmo's (PW, PDL, etc) and ABS. Look at 91' and newer as they have the H.O. inline 6 which is a great engine and can easily pass the 200k mark.

They are more simplistic compared the the Grand's and therefore are more reliable. I've had a couple and was a member on a Cherokee forum where Jeep fanatics would generally call the XJ more reliable than the ZJ's.

That being said, Toyota's build quality (then) and refinement is better than Chryslers. Little stuff on my Jeeps would break and need attention, more of an annoyance than anything as it generally didnt affect the driveability.