Wheeling: sway bars or no

I rally way too hard on the street to induce that much oversteer. I break loose around a corner here and there on dry pavement every now and again. 95% street, 5% off-road. I love the way it handles on the street. I've also never gotten stuck off-road with it connected. It's not a rock crawler, and I enjoy the challenges. Disconnecting it isn't worth it to me.
I took the sways off my '92 4Runner at one point, and I hated the way it handled on the street.
Yes, I know you said you're only talking about off-road.
FWIW, all the big time rigs at KOH run sway bars... [emoji12][emoji16]
 
Too funny... I had a shed with sway bars from various vehicles that I think I now cannot remember the vehicles which they belong. An FJ40 front bumper served as a step into that shed.

I do remember using at least a couple sway bars over the years in my outdoor or yard gyms, for lat pulls! Most are ideally shaped for such...
 
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Leave the rear alone, sway bars installed, pretty much forever.

For the front, use extended links and leave them on for most trails. For nearly every trail I would think you'd hit in your area, leave them on.
 
Mine disconnected themselves... The rear snapped in half at the bushing and the mounts on the front would never stay tight so when it started falling of again I just removed it entirely.

They're is absolutely more body roll but with my suspension setup it is still safe for evasive maneuvering so they're staying off
 
Black798 said:
Mine disconnected themselves... The rear snapped in half at the bushing and the mounts on the front would never stay tight so when it started falling of again I just removed it entirely.

They're is absolutely more body roll but with my suspension setup it is still safe for evasive maneuvering so they're staying off
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So true. I've broken a rear set and two front sets, one oem and other moog.

These guys above that wheel hard and don't break links ding know what offroading is. Lol.
 
I don’t have the rear one on. To many bad stories about elocker getting hit by the sway bar. So **** it. In the front I’m runnig [MENTION=98153]MStudt[/MENTION] away bar links
 
Some very vague generalizations here:
1) With a locker - you don't really need to articulate the suspension as much. Sure, it's nice to articulate, but you don't HAVE to.
2) In some off-road situations, swaybars are still nice. On very steep side slopes for example - they can reduce how far over the truck leans, and could make the difference between leaning way over and rolling over.
3) Disconnecting the front sway bar won't really make the front end super limber. A lot of the roll resistance up there is just due to the spring rates. It's a stiff front end - to make it handle reasonably well on pavement.

I've very occasionally had a half a thought of adding an e-disconnect sway bar. Looking on eBay for Jeep Rubi sways, but every time sticker shock *very* quickly dissuades me.
 
phattyduck said:
The most technically correct answer is to keep the rear connected and disconnect the front.

In the rear, with inboard mounted springs and solid axle, you "should" have a swaybar to increase the roll rate to approximately match the wheel rate.

-Charlie
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Can you explain this a bit more for someone who hasn't had their morning coffee yet? What "Wheel Rate" are you referring to?

I have my front connected (with disconnecting end links), but my rear is removed. Wasn't by choice. I was removing it to do some work, and three of the 4 bolts holding it in place snapped off. The truck still handles great, but I've yet to do extreme off-roading to see how it behaves. I mostly prefer mountain roads and such anyway, but I do like to be prepared for the unexpected.

Thanks!
 
psraff said:
Can you explain this a bit more for someone who hasn't had their morning coffee yet? What "Wheel Rate" are you referring to?

I have my front connected (with disconnecting end links), but my rear is removed. Wasn't by choice. I was removing it to do some work, and three of the 4 bolts holding it in place snapped off. The truck still handles great, but I've yet to do extreme off-roading to see how it behaves. I mostly prefer mountain roads and such anyway, but I do like to be prepared for the unexpected.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'll take a shot at this
The wheel rate is the same as the spring rate, just measured at the wheel; according to wikipedia and spring theory
 
psraff said:
Can you explain this a bit more for someone who hasn't had their morning coffee yet? What "Wheel Rate" are you referring to?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Wheel rate = the effective spring rate at the wheel.
Roll rate = the effective spring rate

In the rear, the spring is directly attached to the axle - the wheel rate is the spring rate.
In the front, the spring is attached inboard from where the wheel attaches. For each 1" of spring travel, the wheel moves around 1.7" (from what I have read). This makes those 500lb springs act like ~300lb springs at the wheel.

The roll rate, in the way I was describing it at least, is how the suspension acts when there are different forces on each side of the car. (either cornering, on a hillside or with uneven terrain).

In the front, if one wheel goes up and the other goes down (with the swaybar disconnected) the effective spring rate is the same as if there was extra weight added or removed from the front. Wheel rate = roll rate. If you add the swaybar into the picture, the two sides of the suspension moving in opposite directions (up and down) now has a higher spring rate due to the deflection of the swaybar.

In the rear, (with swaybar disconnected) if there are different forces on the two wheels (flexing, cornering, etc.) the axle will move MORE than you would expect for the spring (wheel) rate. Think teter-toter with springs mounted near the center vs. teter toter with springs on each end. One rocks back and forth much more easily. Adding a swaybar in this situation (of the correct rate), resists that extra flex and makes the suspension act like the springs are right at the wheels.

The rear of the 4Runner has the springs mounted about 50% of the way out to the end of the axle, so without the rear swaybar attached, the rear is about twice as "tippy" as it is stiff in the up and down direction... You get impressive flex out of it, but it isn't balanced or matched to the front.

-Charlie
 
I took my front swaybar off to replace the LCAs ...and just never put it back on. I can't tell you about the offroad benefits because I don't ever go offroad. I just make plans to and then they fall through at the last minute.
 
JohnMc said:
Some very vague generalizations here:
1) With a locker - you don't really need to articulate the suspension as much. Sure, it's nice to articulate, but you don't HAVE to.
2) In some off-road situations, swaybars are still nice. On very steep side slopes for example - they can reduce how far over the truck leans, and could make the difference between leaning way over and rolling over.
3) Disconnecting the front sway bar won't really make the front end super limber. A lot of the roll resistance up there is just due to the spring rates. It's a stiff front end - to make it handle reasonably well on pavement.

I've very occasionally had a half a thought of adding an e-disconnect sway bar. Looking on eBay for Jeep Rubi sways, but every time sticker shock *very* quickly dissuades me.
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1. This is true but you need to be locked up front and rear.

2. True also. This is why I always keep rear sway bar connected. Minimizes body roll on the trail.

3. I found with front disconnected mountain passes are dangerous when cornering at speed.

Most Rubicon guys replace the e-disconnects with manual discos due to them failing.
 
Some very good points have been made, and experiences shared, but I think [MENTION=65101]BrianSD_42[/MENTION] canonized it for me with this sentence
For nearly every trail I would think you'd hit in your area, leave them on.
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My goal with this vehicle is not extreme crawling but rather overlanding to remote camping, fishing, hunting and hiking destinations safely with friends and family. After having driven a heavy truck with ZERO sway factory bars (my 1959 Apache pickup) then adding an addaco front sway bar, I feel 100% more confident on the road at modern speeds in that truck. Honestly I have ZERO intention of removing the sway bars on a highway driven, passenger vehicle.

That said, I do see benefit in disconnecting the front sway bar in an IFS non-driven scenario, like my 2WD 4runner 100% of the time off-road, as this would allow the front wheels to roll over obstacles/uneven terrain without introducing body roll like it does now - my dash cam video shows it.

I think there is a detriment in disconnecting the sway bar in a solid axle scenario, like our rear ends (as specified by [MENTION=139000]phattyduck[/MENTION] due to placement of rear springs inboard of wheels) which can actually encourage the body to roll more, corroborated by [MENTION=71960]JohnMc[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50342]JayRolla[/MENTION].

All that said, I'm interested in hearing from more folks on both sides of the fence.
 
Removing sway bars on a truck with worn out or inadequate suspension is a recipe for trouble, but a truck with fresh upgraded suspension and/or a wider more stable stance than factory you can tell the difference still, but the body roll is much more controlled and the truck feels more planted.

I've confidently taken a lot of corners probably harder than I should have in my 3rd gen with no sway bars, but the 2.5" shocks, stiffened springs and wide track made it very stable.

I also removed both swaybars on my Forester, I felt extremely sketchy when it was stock with soft skinny tires and narrow track even with the swaybars, but now with no swaybars and wider, stiffer tires along with a huge increase in track width I'm way more confident.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
 
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JohnMc said:
Some very vague generalizations here:
3) Disconnecting the front sway bar won't really make the front end super limber. A lot of the roll resistance up there is just due to the spring rates. It's a stiff front end - to make it handle reasonably well on pavement.
Click to expand...

Interesting generalization you've made too though.
"Super limber" is up for interpretation, and is completely subjective.
It's not a vague generalization to say removing the FSB induces oversteer; it's a well-known fact. That's what anti-roll bars are for- to balance under/oversteer, and keep the tires on the ground.
Sure, the front suspension geometry plays a large role in roll-center, but I would absolutely say my front end WAS "super limber" when I had the FSB off. Again- it's subjective- but in my opinion, it rolled like a MF'er. To the point I honestly didn't feel it was safe to drive. But that's just my opinion from my experience. YMMV
 
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