Where has Toyota’s quality gone?

[TNTramair]

In my experience the worst techs I've encountered were at dealers. And generally dealerships are the most impersonal with subpar customer service. Toyota dealerships were no different. I understand that Toyota techs should be the most qualified to repair anything on your Toyota vehicle because of specialized training, the fact is that they are not. I agree with Rook that the labor rate is grossly inflated and there are many things on a vehicle that can be serviced or repaired before being replaced. Everytime you replace a part that can be repaired, you are ripping off a customer. Everytime you charge a diagnostic fee and incorrectly diagnose a problem, you are ripping off a customer. Everytime you go to charge a customer for service without referencing TSBs or possible warranty coverage, you are ripping off a customer. All of these things have happened to me at a Toyota dealership and some of them at other dealerships. There is no excuse for it so I don't bring vehicles to dealerships anymore.

Fwiw, I still think Toyota produces quality vehicles, but they are not the best and there is a well documented decrease in quality. Toyota also commands a premium for their name that I don't feel is justified anymore because of lower quality and poor customer service.

this is a losing battle on my part but whatever. if you're not in the industry than i dont expect you to understand and most people dont and feel the same way you do. which is fine...you're entitled to your opinion.

back on topic...i tried to help the OP with some info so im done with this thread.

 

[RPC]

DRC,

I bought an '08 brand new and this thing has been a total pain in my ass since literally day one. I have 21K miles on it and:

-Am on my third radio (the first one went out one the way home from the dealership when bought new)
-Have been experiencing the drive clunk for the last 7K miles or so
-Am just waiting for the clock/MPG/Miles left in tank/Avg. speed/etc panel to go out as the light on the right half is badly fading in & out
-Am experiencing that maddening popping/crackling/snapping sound from the driver's seat every time I go around a turn
-Am totally flabbergasted by how the AC compressor can so significantly affect a 4.7L V8- I get a crazy surging when it cycles on and off
-The HVAC ducting has smelled musty or moldy since day one. It has to be damn cold before I turn the heater on because it smells TERRIBLE with heat
-Scratched all hell out of the instrument cluster plastic (with a moist microfiber cloth) the first time I ever cleaned it
-Am really am waiting for the next thing to start squeaking, rattling, stinking, popping, or just misbehaving in general

Most of these things came up in one form or another in the first few thousand miles and after getting jerked around by the dealership on every one of them I started the CA Lemon Law process. They freaked out and sent a Rep out who, after going on a test drive with me and verifying every one of the problems, threw a 7yr/100K mi Toyota Platinum warranty at me to drop the suit- it was funny too because they called it a "gift." I took their gift alright but told them to expect to hear from me if shit kept popping up. I have many times considered re-initiating the Lemon Law process and will likely feel forced to as this thing ages and continues to find new ways to amaze me with the despicable quality.

The worst part though is the disappointment I feel. After college I landed a great job that pays well so I figured it was time I treated myself to my first new vehicle, and since I had always had a hard on for 4Runners, why not get a new one of those?! It's like having a gorgeous, intelligent, outdoor loving, envy inducing, over sexed, somewhat well refined girlfriend but who is slightly neurotic- how long can you put up with her shit?

 

[rook]

so i guess lawyers and doctors charge just enough for their services and never do anything for free but you would expect them to???
its called pro bono... many professionals offer it.. try this analogy, since that has been your modus operandi.. Call a lawyer about a real estate closing and ask what services are involved and the cost... does the lawyer reply "before I answer that, I will need 60 dollars from you".
In the case of the OP, he already directed the tech to the problem and was looking for confirmation of what was wrong. Any service writer worth his salt should be able to have the tech look at it and write up the repair estimate and sell the job!

we are discussing a service related business... part of the cost of doing business is applying your expertise to the problem, offering a solution and once the service is performed, you are paid... to take a look at a problem and provide an estimate should be (within reason) no cost. You have been hanging around too many whiny flat rate techs who want every minute paid for... the same techs who DO NOT complain when the 3 hrs of paid labor is completed in 30 minutes time.

grossly inflated?? im sorry you dont understand that dealers employ some of the best techs in the industry and have to spend thousands of dollars on training every year to keep them up to date on all the new technology that comes out with every new car. or the hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment we have in every dealership to work with said vehicles. or just the basic cost of day to day operation and maintenance. i guess we're just supposed to forget about all that right?

Believe me, I understand there is a cost associated with doing business.. but seriously, put the company kool aid down and see the whole picture.. dealers make a TON of money at the service dept... If you guys were living a hardscrabble life then you wouldn't have fancy showrooms, complimentary vehicles and the money to spend on high tech gadgets etc...

thats right...we replace a part when its broken. why would we fix something that broke?? isnt that like putting a bandaid on it?? we do things the right way...not much left on these new cars that can "just be repaired".
I'll remember that the next time you sell a whole axle when the boot is torn. The mentality that nothing is fixable directly contradicts your statement that dealers hire the best techs... there are many components that can be rebuilt instead of replaced... dealership inflated labor rates make rebuilds cost prohibitive.. the customer, however ends up paying more in replacement parts and labor

it sounds like you were ripped off (or think you were) at some point in time and it left a sour taste in your mouth...understandable, happens to everyone. but dont catogorize all Writers b/c its no differant than other line of work. you're gonna have good ones and bad ones...just the nature of the beast.

i, for one, dont rip anyone off...there's enough honest work around for me to make a living. i simply dont need to do it. cheers!

whatever helps you to sleep better at night :gun4:

 

[raggedyandy75]

Beginning to wonder if my recent purchase of a used 2007 4runner was a good idea. Only a couple months after the purchase we started having the "clunk" when breaking and coming to a stop. The dealership told us we needed a new drive shaft ($775.00 repair + $47.00 for looking at the vehicle) which they claimed was not covered under the warranty. After I did some research to determine that there is a 100,000 Kilometer 60 month powertrain warranty, and convincing the service department that the drive shaft is part of the powertrain they have apologized and agreed to fix the drive shaft under warranty. Now the radio has started acting up. I'm getting these blocky, or blob shaped characters on the display, and sometimes the display goes blank. The dealer tells me that that the radio is not covered under the warranty.

I have owned 4 other Toyota vehicles over the years and have never had any problems until now. I'm losing faith in Toyota quality, and Toyota service. How can I trust a Toyota dealer who tries to take my money for repairs that should be covered under warranty? How many other people have paid for repairs that should have been covered under their warranty.

 

[Barefoot]

Mrs Barefoot has an '06 Sienna. We had the door pop issue, and took it in for warranty service.

The dealer sent it to the local body shop, who fixed it by welding it in a couple hours, not by replacing the whole door which would have cost the warranty dept big bucks.

If you van is out of warranty, take it to a body shop, and see if they can help you for a few hundred bucks.

 

[Rix]

the radio isn't made by toyota, but yes they do have problems.

your clunk is fixable.
drop the rear half of the driveline, mark the front and rear half of the slip joint to index it so it goes back in the same spot it came apart.
seperate the slip joint, pack the splines with a good moly ep grease, pop the grease zirk out of the driveline (not the u-joint) and put it back together.
reinstall the zirk and pump some grease into it and the u-joints while you're at it.
this should get rid of the clunk.

As for the sienna.... the quality is REALLY hit or miss on those.
Some are good, some are just piles of junk.

generally speaking, the switch to more and more american made vehicles has seen the quality go down :rant:

lately, they seem to have gotten a bit of a handle on it, and we're seeing less quality issues as time goes on.

 

[Rix]

So after reading more of this thread.... namely the second page, I can see there's a pretty low opinion of dealerships.

After working for dealershiops for 15 years now, all I can say is this:

Not all dealerships are the same.

Not even all personel in the same dealership are the same. I've seen first-hand some of the things you guys talk about, but I can assure you, NOT everyone at the dealership is that way.

 

[DRC]

Okay this just further proves my point about Toyota’s quality. See my latest thread:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-g...ater-dripping-behind-glovebox.html#post606545

Now my 4runner is leaking water. The Sienna had this same, or similar, problem where water somehow soaked the passenger side carpet.

Toyota is making it very hard for me to like their vehicles. Very disappointed with my 2 Toyota’s.:nono:

 

[DRC]

your clunk is fixable.
drop the rear half of the driveline, mark the front and rear half of the slip joint to index it so it goes back in the same spot it came apart.
seperate the slip joint, pack the splines with a good moly ep grease, pop the grease zirk out of the driveline (not the u-joint) and put it back together.
reinstall the zirk and pump some grease into it and the u-joints while you're at it.
this should get rid of the clunk.

I tried the lube of the u-joints as was suggested in a few other threads but it did not seem to help. This process seems a bit more involved. Does this fix the problem? Seem that there are many "fixes" for this problem floating around.

 

[XJeepguy]

All the quality went into the 3rd Gen's :cheers:

 

[DRC]

So just to post an update. I talked with Toyota about the door pop but they could not help because we are about 6 1/2 year old. So no warranty coverage. This may also have to do with the fact that we had an extended warranty that was used a lot so they may have figured they have spent enough on us. This was one of the few extended warranties I had that paid for itself and then some with all the problems we had.

I got around to pulling the door panel off and when I saw the damage to the sheet metal it was really in bad shape. 4 of the spot welds had torn and the metal cup was just about ripped in half. There was really no repairing it so the dealer was right that it needed replacement. However, I spent a few hours with my right angle drill and some metal straps I made and was able to bolt the thing back together. I opted not to try welding it do to the amount of damage and the fact that I have a stick welder which would have been a real pain in the butt. The bolts and metal straps seemed to do the job.

The rattle noise was caused by 2 things. 1 the AC condenser and 2 a rusted muffler strap. Seems that they put a stainless steel shield of sorts around part of the exhaust pipe near the engine. They have what looks like radiator hose clamps that hold this on and one of these was rusted through and was rattling around. $1.50 for a new one at the parts store and most of the rattle is gone. The AC condenser is still noisy but there is not much I can do with that so I will wait it out and see if she goes or not.

 

[TNTramair]

did you get my PM regarding this??

 

[offshorebear]

My 4Runner is my first Toyota. It breaks, but so does everything else. Toyota's perception of supreme quality always sounded like internet fanboys to me. Look at relability reports, every car breaks, and most are within one standard deviation of the rest.

 

[DRC]

did you get my PM regarding this??

I got your PM about the AC drain possibly being clogged. But that is not the issue with my 4Runner. The line was clear. If you are talking about another PM then no, I have not seen anything else.

Much thanks though.

 

[TNTramair]

I got your PM about the AC drain possibly being clogged. But that is not the issue with my 4Runner. The line was clear. If you are talking about another PM then no, I have not seen anything else.

Much thanks though.

yeah thats the one i was talkin about. this is a stretch but check your sunroof drains aswell...it will also leak on the passenger side if they are backed up but that wouldnt explain why it doesnt do it when your a/c is off.

 

[DRC]

yeah thats the one i was talkin about. this is a stretch but check your sunroof drains aswell...it will also leak on the passenger side if they are backed up but that wouldnt explain why it doesnt do it when your a/c is off.

Already checked both sides and ran some weed whacker line through them as well as filled with water and watched it drain from under the truck. Sunroof seems okay and AC drain was okay...so I was out of ideas as to what was going on. I have a separate thread under the 4th gen forum but I have not gotten any solutions yet.

 

[TNTramair]

I cant see anything else short of the box being cracked where it would cause it to leak other than the clogged drain hose. i've had instances where just blowing air through the line didnt work b/c it just pushed the stuff up into the housing only to have it come right back down into the hose. Toyota offers an a/c vent service that you may want to try...it desolves everything in there and clears it out.

if youre sitting under the vehicle while its running and you see no water from the drain tube than i would give that vent service a try.

 

[LB4Runner05]

I tried the lube of the u-joints as was suggested in a few other threads but it did not seem to help. This process seems a bit more involved. Does this fix the problem? Seem that there are many "fixes" for this problem floating around.

These aren't technically "fixes". These are maintenance processes that are listed in the owners manual maintenance section. :hello: These maintenance processes need to be followed and are based on current Toyota Lean and Six Sigma improvement events.

These machines need to be maintained and not just fixed when something fails. The zirks need to be greased regularly to avoid the clunk. The clunk is your advance warning of the need to be greased. My T4R has 102K with only normal and expected maintenance issues. The forum isn't a replacement for not using a mechanic, its simply a guide so you may speak with someone intelligently. If you do your own work you should be entrenched with the maintenance schedule and repair manuals of these machines so they will be there to serve you. :jaw drop: Just my thought for what its worth.

 

[DRC]

These aren't technically "fixes". These are maintenance processes that are listed in the owners manual maintenance section.

I agree about the need for regular maintenance at the prescribed intervals and I do all my own maintenance regularly. I have read through the maintenance schedule and owners manual many times and don’t recall seeing anything about this. But I have been known to miss things before so I will have another look.

However, that does not explain why this “clunk” has been present from day 1 when I bought my 4runner brand new with less than 50 miles on it. Many other 4runner owners have reported experiencing this same issue when their trucks were brand new also. If this was a simple maintenance issue then why would it be present on a brand new truck? I talked with 3 different dealers about this issue during my first few months of ownership, all 3 of the dealers said this is normal and there is nothing to worry about. None of the dealers indicated then need for service or maintenance. I guess it just is what it is.

 

[Bourbon City]

My 2008 T4R is two years old. True in has less than 15,000 miles, but the only thing my T4R has been to the dealer for is oil changes and tire rotations.

It is good to read about these problems so I can watch out for them on my truck.