why all americans should buy imports (Toyota)

[daveman]

This is my 2 cents on the import vs. domestics debate. I make my decision on patriotism, as opposed to what many might think (quality).

We need to first establish two facts, they are indsiputable, and once we understand that they are indisputable, we can then use them as the foundation to build our opinion.

1.) As of right now, and the past 2 decades, imports (let's just use
Toyota exclusively) have a higher quality in their products than
the domestics, as a whole. This factors in reliability, fit and
finish.

2.) American car companies are ABSOLUTELY capable of building
cars that are just as good in quality as Toyota, if not better.
They have not done that because of HUMAN factors, factors they
can change or eliminate immediately; no one but themselves
restraining their progress.

Because the domestics can build just as good a truck or car as Toyota can(many Toyotas are built in America by Americans), but they do not, for reasons such as worker incompetence due to UAW protection, complacency in the higher ups, and probably downright arrogance at the American people's patriotism to our country, they do not push themselves to do what they can easily achieve: to equal or better Toyota. For their self-destructive attitude, any red-blooded American, if he loves America, wants America to get back to it's hard working ethics (it's not patented by the Japanese!!), would boycott the big 3; only an immediate drop in sales will slap them awake (maybe), they might otherwise be complacent in the fact that their market share is ONLY dropping 1 percent a year. But if their market share drops 5 percent in one year, then somebody will get fired, and somebody else will get hired, and the boardrooms will get the message.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Hitman]

I agree with your first point, but not with the second one...

For years, Toyota made the Camry both in Japan and in the United States. Same exact car, same exact components. The only difference is that they were screwed together in two different countries.

Guess what? The American-made Camrys are every bit as good as their Japanese-made counterparts. The statistics proved that there is no discernable difference between them....

I think the reason that Japanese cars have higher reliability than domestics is more a result of:

1- engineering
2- higher quality parts, such as sensors.

Think about it..... most new cars these days end up back at the dealer for a faulty sensor.... not usually a big deal like a blown engine or bad transmission. It's ususally the little things like sensors that fail and must be replaced.

That said, I don't think you can blame the UAW for poor assembly of their vehicles.

 

[daveman]

you don't agree with my second point, Hitman?


Guess what? The American-made Camrys are every bit as good as their Japanese-made counterparts. The statistics proved that there is no discernable difference between them....

My second point was that American car companies are definitely capable of building cars that rival Toyota in overall quality, how would American-built Camry with the same level of quality of one built in Japan disagree with my point???? If an American-built Camry (built by Americans, not Japanese workers) is "every bit as good" as their Japanese counterparts, then this demonstrates my point exactly: Americans are just as able as Japanese to build a solid, reliable, functioning, well finished automobile.

So seeing that we both agree with both of my points, this is where we DO differ: I do not believe Japanese cars have better reliability because of engineering. By engineering, i assume you mean the mechanical, electrical, and electronic design of the vehicle. Japanese cars, heck, all cars are very similar in their functional design today (drive train, transmission, cooling system, braking system), with the exception of comparing high-end luxury sedans to lower priced one (comparing mercedes new computer brakes with toyota's traditional ones) or valve design (push rod vs overhead cam). But reliability problems with the domestics are not exclusive to the engines or breaks; as a matter of fact, a domestic can have parts failure just about anywhere: a jeep's transmission going out, a suburban's radiator needs to be replaced, or even toyota not tightening their new tacomas parking brake bolt tightly enough. So design has virtually nothing to do with reliability, the big 3 has no design flaw with their vehicles, they all look fine on paper, like the jeep, it looks great in specs on paper, but in practice......

your second point, that toyota uses higher quality parts, i do concur with you, because i think it is obvious from the driving experience that the materials used in toyota/lexus interior is superior to those of gm/cadillac; if toyota were to use the good stuff on the inside, they'd have no reason to be cheap on what really counts, the mechanics.

And your last point on the UAW not being guilty of the big 3's low quality products is completely idiotic. I've said it, and now I apologize to you for it, but i must say it again: idiotic. The higher ups in gm must take responsibility for shifting their company emphasis from product planning to advertising, which killed gm again after it was already dead. But UAW gives unreasonalbe amount and kind of protection to the assembly workers that I ASSUME it would make the big 3's workers complacent and, what's worse, in contempt of their employers and their work. Why would they assemble a fan-freakin-tastic vehicle if one that doesn't fall apart will do? Why would they go through the trouble of tightening every screw and check every point if they don't have to? Why go for the A when a C is passing too? They certainly wouldn't get disciplined... Their attitude as a result of UAW protection is my ASSUMPTION, but Toyota, on the other hand, does not have UAW in their factories (except the Canadian one), and for some reason, their vehicles are assembled right. Go figure. UAW has absolutely no contribution whatsoever, of any kind, to GM.

 

[peter78]

I disagree with your second point. Toyota has learned quality control from us and can produce a great car here and over in Japan. I feel the American workers can do the job, I feel American management is the biggest problem, yes UAW can give problems, but if quality really is job one and just not a slogan, than you will see a dramatic increase in American car production.

 

[Loki]

Already boycotting American made products.

My American made experience:
1993 ford probe gt; paint started peeling off the car at 2 yrs, multiple transmission and electrical problems which left me stranded on the side of the road. Sold the car to some poor soul at 40k miles.

1999 Chevy Tahoe Sport; Paint started peeling off the car 3 months into ownership. Vehicle was lemon lawed successfully after GM refused to repaint the entire car (they would only do touch ups when the paint flaked of on any given area)

2002 Acura CL Type-S; Transmission failure at 1500 miles. Car was successfully lemon lawed.

I'm done buying American made crap. I work too hard for my money.

 

[owen4runner]

Everyone should take a break (from typing) and watch the movie Gung Ho w/ Michael Keaton (1986). Peace!:awais:

 

[EDGE]

My 4Runner parking break was never properly tightened, damn japanese and my alignment was off.

I agree but it's late and to tired to type funny abou the imports built here that suffer from quality problems:

 

[wm69]

unions promote mediocre production results. Until people get rid of the unions the big 3 will continue making crap. People need to find their jobs, keep their jobs, and expect to be promoted through hard work, not because the union says they deserve it.

 

[Loki]

unions promote mediocre production results. Until people get rid of the unions the big 3 will continue making crap. People need to find their jobs, keep their jobs, and expect to be promoted through hard work, not because the union says they deserve it.

I agree 100%. Unions are the crux of the problem. Unions are like communism on a smaller scale IMO. A non union work force rewarded for hard work and individual effort will ALWAYS outperform a unionized work force.

 

[EDGE]

I had a job working down on the docks, shoreman or something can't remember the name, I was part of the non-union crew that was trying to replace the union members: not like replace their jobs it was just something that was setup that offered same benefits, packages but had no union backing, they where trying to transfer the union guys over to the non-union, many reason why, 1 being the unions are slow and they could fire idiots or problem prone guys who where protected by the unions.

Anyways I got the job with a friend through his uncle, we installed port installed options, whatever they may be, all different sections working on vehicles as they rolled off the ships.

I only worked their for 6 months cause in that time I saw more union guys take shit off cars, and undo work when non union guys left to take a break, the union guys spent an hour or 2 working and the rest of the day messing around with the non union guys and they where getting paid 60-90k for 2 hours a day.

I've seen it 1st hand and for many reason could not take it, my car or my friends never got vandalized but others where, sometimes the arguments would turn into really heated battles and it all came down to job security.

Maybe if the union guys who should have been fired worked and did the job to earn 90k plus a year, it was not a hard job at all they would not keep persisting that the unions are the only way.

The problem with Union guys is they make crazy money, work 14-16 hour days and within 5-7 days you get a paycheck for 15k after taxes, thats good money and what do they do with it, spend it, they have no concept of saving or investing, I've seen Union guys make more on the weekends then people who work the entire month.

Another thing with Unions is they only support the Unions, they drive domestic mostly and depending on the Unions and how strong they are if you drive an import either park that thing far away or trade it for a domestic: I've seen guys my age, 25 give or take refuse to ride in a Toyota or a Nissan, they will torch your car, guys are insane.

 

[EDGE]

You wanna see slow ass Union workers, 200 container ships are sitting in the ocean, 50 are getting ready to pull into port to unload, do we do like the Japanese and use a system where everything is electonically tagged and within seconds a computer can tell you everything that is on board, where it is and what it is.

No we have guys walking around with clip boards, manually checking everything, the unions fought against the Japanese method cause 40,000-60,000 union people would loose their job a handful of guys could do with a computer and it would be more precise, now it's gonna take another 10 years at least before we are where the Japanese are.

Anyone remember when the ports where at a standstill cause the unions where striking, and you had Nissan&Toyota and several other imports airlifting cargo to their US assembly plants, that was the problem.

 

[greasefingers]

For me it comes down to money. When I make a huge investment I want it to be a good one. So I pick something I that I believe is worth the plunge because I do not like parting with my cash. My other two current vehicles are both over ten years old, so it matters more to me as I will be using my purchase for a longer time than most people.

 

[wm69]

My neighbor does HVAC work for a company that subcontracts under Bell (phones). The union folk there will quit working if a lightbulb burns out in the room. He said he's seen them sit around for 4-5 hours waiting for someone to come change the lightbulb for them because "that's not my job". People wonder why American companies are getting hit so hard.

 

[gonzo]

i see that there is a lot of resentment towards unions on this forum, however, it is best to keep from generalizing. granted, unions such as the u.a.w. have done a lot of damage, but unions are not always a bad thing. the u.s., more than any other industrialized nation caves to the demands of big business. unions, or at least the threat of unions, gives workers a voice where otherwise they would have none. as is true with any power, it often get abused - but that does not mean that it is not necessary or is without benefit.

that being said, i am consistently appalled that at least one of the big three has not risen to the level of japanese imports in terms of quality. it makes me think that the marginal benefit of increasing quality does not match the marginal cost.

as for the "buy american" campaign, spending your money wisely will leave you with more disposable income, which is also beneficial to the local economy.

 

[Bluto]

Unions can be unethical and corrupt, or moral and advantageous.

Just a reflection of the society from which they draw their ranks.



GM has turned Cadillac around.

 

[Loki]

Well, GM is in its death throws right now, and as far as I'm concerned they deserve it:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8324&sid=173&n=156

GM treated me TERRIBLY when the paint started coming off my ~3 MONTH OLD~ Tahoe. They forced me to get a lawyer and sue for lemon law instead of just making things right and repainting the truck or even replacing it. You just can't keep customers this way. I hate to see American Jobs get cut but at the same time, a job is not a right, it's something you have to continually earn. My story is not a unique one either and you can only get away with screwing your customers for so long until you have none left.

:soapbox:

 

[abin]

An interesting new I read yesterday,
Many local police departments quited from law suit against Ford on Crown Vic they use as PO cruiser. The law suit is about the Crown Vic is unsafe for PO, which caused death when it was hit from behind.
It is said that, Ford will not sell Crown Vic to PD if the PD does not drop out from the law suit., so some quit.
I don't know if PD has other choices for a car they think is safe.

 

[boston_kevin]

Unions have outlived their usefulness

I had a friend working on the network for the NYSE. Excellent pay, lots of hours, but he was constantly threatened by the union guys not to touch any of their components (such as wires, ports, punch-down panels, etc). If they had an outage, he got fined for the outage while waiting for the union guys to show up. When he complained to his superiors at the NYSE, they said they have been fighting that problem for years with no resolution.

Unions had their place and time, but now with Lawyers running the unions, everything is slower and more corrupt than ever. Everybody gets paid, but the lawyer gets paid first so he can take his time distributing the money to his employees. They were put in place to protect the employees, but now they just serve to slow productivity and fatten lawyers wallets.

Based on my past interviews with Ford engineering teams, I don't think there is anything wrong with American engineering. Where we get walloped is the cost offset. American factory workers get paid more per hour than any other country, this translates into higher costs for the consumer. To compete with the foreign markets, most domestic companies reduce the cost of the components to offset the rising labor costs which is perceived as lower quality. To produce components cheaply, you have to have a lower acceptance criteria to allow more components to be shipped, or outsource to another manufacturer for less expensive components. Many of the sensors that fail in domestic or foreign cars are made in in Asia (Korea, Japan, and China are the largest markets). Since many companies buy components from this area, shipping costs add to the price, so perhaps they are not buying the same quality components as their foreign counterparts. Whatever the reason, the big 3 domestic automakes still need to bring up quality to compete, how they do that has baffled them for years.

 

[Cleric]

I know a girl who was asking me why I drive a 4Runner. About a week later I was on the side of the highway with her, using my AAA card to get her '98 Chevy towed to a shop before it was impounded.

I looked at her and said, "That's why I drive a Toyota." She did not care to comment.



On another note, look around at how many of the stalled vehicles you see on the side of the road. Since I have been paying attention, I have seen at least 25 American cars and only 1 Japanese.