Why do my New KING Shocks ride like crap?
- Thread starter Mutant
- Start date
theesotericone
New member
I'm 24 1/2" center hub to bottom of SR5 flare driver side and 24 1/4" passenger side on the second perch. The rears 25.5" driver 25.25" passenger with 861's I have a Savage rear w/dual swings. My 295/70/17 tire is mounted on the rear passenger side swing so that's why I'm one of the few guys actually higher on the drivers side. lol
For the price point I like this set-up quite a bit. If your not carrying the extra armor it feels pretty good on the first notch. Once you armor up and go to the second notch it's super solid. I can fly down wash boards with all the weight and it stays glued to the road. Technical wheeling it performs extremely well too. There not Kings but it's 1/3 of the price for 3/4 of the performance.
muellernautique
New member
what was your total cost? i was probably going to get the bilstein/boss toytec lift for $800 or so. but not if that's a better deal and more comfortable ride.
also, do you have any pictures?
Unner
New member
Wasn't taking a shot at you at all. I just don't expect everyone at places like Toytec to be an expert on all the vehicles they guys sell parts for. You've got direct experience with third gens, so I'd expect you know more about them then a 2nd gen Tundra or something completely different. Hope there's no hard feelings. :cheers:
theesotericone
New member
There's plenty of pics of my rig in here. If you want to see pics of the install search my user name in the "What did you do in your 4runner" thread.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/242884-theesotericones-trails-bs-thread.html
The kit your looking at comes with the Taco Billies if it's this kit. It's the same kit I have except I swapped the rear springs for 861's when I got my rear bumper. As of a year and a half ago this kit came with Billie D558's(Tacos).
3" lift ToyTec/Bilstein kit for 96-02 4Runner
Here's Wheelers explaining the main differences between the D558 and the 249928(Tundra).
https://wheelersoffroad.com/i-25489711-bilstein-5100-height-adjustable-front-shock-pairfor-1995-2004-tacoma.html?ref=category:1388874
There's also a 3rd Gen specific shock that Billie released last year, the 248730.
So there's your choices in that price point. lol
muellernautique
New member
okay maybe i'm just an idiot but i can't find it, searched and looked on every page for shock installs and couldn't find anything.
and yes, that's the exact kit i was looking at. my max is $1000, and it's really the nicest setup i've found for that pricepoint. i'm definitely leaving those springs though, i don't anticipate a ton of load in the trunk regularly and i have no plans to install a bumper or anything heavy like that.
MattJakobs
New member
opcorn:
4-Ripcord
New member
There is a big part of the equation that I have only seen 1 person briefly mention. PRELOAD!
You say you had 620lb coilover springs before, that is a good spring rate. But, if you carry weight and are cranking them up to get that full 3" (or more) of lift, you WILL ride like shit regardless of what spring you have. 700lbs coils set to 2-2.5" of lift will ride better than 600lb coils that are cranked all the way up. I still think 700lb coils are too much for this truck, but since you already have them on give it a try and bring your ride height down.
Remember: KING recommends going no higher than 2.5" of lift. There is a reason for this!
Now for the rear. You say 861s are not stiff enough?? Those things are meant for loaded land cruisers! I've had them, they are not fun.
But I digress, Bushings are a big contributor to the rear suspension. Having them torqued at ride height is important. If the bushings are still torqued at stock ride height, they will have some preload in them at a lifted ride height.
I think the root of problem in the rear is your tire pressure though, allow me to explain.
Tires: Remember that the tire sidewall is another spring in the equation. Suspension tuning (including how YOUR shocks are tuned) is designed around this principle. The tire is the first spring in the system to absorb a bump. If the tire is too inflated it will not absorb the bump and instead bounce off of it, causing the rear suspension to feel like it is skipping like a rock thrown over a pond. This will cause the jarring ride you are feeling in the rear. For small bumps like expansion joints and tar filling on pavement, the tire is the main component that is meant to absorb those. The suspension only comes into play when more wheel travel is induced.
This effect is compounded with solid axle suspensions like the rear on 4Runners. The reason for this is that the entire weight of the axle, diff, control arms is only sprung by the tire. This is called unsprung weight. If you have the tires so inflated they are no longer an effective spring, the entire weight of that rear suspension will be bouncing around like that skipping rock analogy I gave.
40psi is much too high. I would try 32-35 psi, or even lower if the roads you drive are really rough.
To summarize:
-reduce front lift height
-un-torque and re-torque bushings at current ride height
-reduce tire pressure to 32-35 psi
do this and report back [MENTION=148199]Mutant[/MENTION]
You say you had 620lb coilover springs before, that is a good spring rate. But, if you carry weight and are cranking them up to get that full 3" (or more) of lift, you WILL ride like shit regardless of what spring you have. 700lbs coils set to 2-2.5" of lift will ride better than 600lb coils that are cranked all the way up. I still think 700lb coils are too much for this truck, but since you already have them on give it a try and bring your ride height down.
Remember: KING recommends going no higher than 2.5" of lift. There is a reason for this!
Now for the rear. You say 861s are not stiff enough?? Those things are meant for loaded land cruisers! I've had them, they are not fun.
But I digress, Bushings are a big contributor to the rear suspension. Having them torqued at ride height is important. If the bushings are still torqued at stock ride height, they will have some preload in them at a lifted ride height.
I think the root of problem in the rear is your tire pressure though, allow me to explain.
Tires: Remember that the tire sidewall is another spring in the equation. Suspension tuning (including how YOUR shocks are tuned) is designed around this principle. The tire is the first spring in the system to absorb a bump. If the tire is too inflated it will not absorb the bump and instead bounce off of it, causing the rear suspension to feel like it is skipping like a rock thrown over a pond. This will cause the jarring ride you are feeling in the rear. For small bumps like expansion joints and tar filling on pavement, the tire is the main component that is meant to absorb those. The suspension only comes into play when more wheel travel is induced.
This effect is compounded with solid axle suspensions like the rear on 4Runners. The reason for this is that the entire weight of the axle, diff, control arms is only sprung by the tire. This is called unsprung weight. If you have the tires so inflated they are no longer an effective spring, the entire weight of that rear suspension will be bouncing around like that skipping rock analogy I gave.
40psi is much too high. I would try 32-35 psi, or even lower if the roads you drive are really rough.
To summarize:
-reduce front lift height
-un-torque and re-torque bushings at current ride height
-reduce tire pressure to 32-35 psi
do this and report back [MENTION=148199]Mutant[/MENTION]
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phattyduck
Elite Member
This right here needs to be mentioned in every thread about doing suspension. No more prying control arms around in the front, no more jacks to push the axle down in the rear, etc. Many busted bushings on lifted 4Runners are caused by not resetting bushings to the new ride height...
-Charlie
BrianSD_42
New member
Do you think this is a factor on my specific truck? My rear bushings have never been replaced and have no observable problem. I got my suspension lift at ~ 175K miles (didn't write down the exact mileage) and am now at 250K+ miles. Bushings seem fine but and I don't think they were ever torqued or loosened.
I'm not quite seeing how there is any pre-load affecting my rear bushings. Hope this doesn't seem like a dumb-a question :guitar2:
Btw you guys have convinced me now (many times over via this thread) to go ahead with the chalk test. I have to confess I've never ever in 15+ years of 4Runner ownership done one.
thecole1098
New member
I can attest to tire pressure playing a huge role in this. I previously ran my E rated tires at 42psi all around but I recently put the front to 35 and rear to 32psi as obviously, the back does not have a load like the front sees (unless you have armor).
good call about un torquing and re torquing suspension bushings. This isn't as crucial on poly bushings as they are made to flex without binding, but absolutely imperative on rubber.
good call about un torquing and re torquing suspension bushings. This isn't as crucial on poly bushings as they are made to flex without binding, but absolutely imperative on rubber.
theesotericone
New member
Nice to see you around man. Now to the age old question of pre-loading.
Let's take shocks out of the equation for this. We'll just assume they have have enough length compressed and extended to function normally for the given spring.
When we talk about pre-load with a constant rate spring once you compress them past X(500,600,700) they are already "loaded". It's a linear loading is it not?
What it effects, I think, isn't the load that's taken by the spring but the amount of compression it has remaining. Take a 14" 600lb spring and set a 600lb block on it and it will settle 1". Put 1200lbs on it it'll settle 2". Repeat that till fully compressed.
If you release the weight from each of those the spring will return to 14". When we pre-load a 14" 600lb spring with 2" of compression we still have a 14" 600lb spring. What we don't have is 14" of return. We now have 12" of return.
Basically, in my view, pre-loading doesn't have as much to do with spring weight as it does to do with travel. Am I off base here for thinking this way?
fblainen11
New member
I vote tire pressure......and the fact that they are E rated.
Cree
New member
Elastomeric bushings have a nominal operating range of motion designed into them. Think of the original ride height as neutral. There's no bind on the bushings there. Now, you keep everything as is torque wise and then lift the truck 3 inches. You've now established "New" neutral, meaning where the truck sits and rides on a daily basis. The bushing is now under a state of constant load and 1 of the travel limits has moved beyond the original design. That's what causes excessive bushing wear. We see it all the time with our flutter dampners on our birds.
4-Ripcord
New member
When talking about coilovers, you really can't ignore these factors though. They are designed so that at full extension of the shock, the coil already has a small amount of preload in it to prevent the coil from moving around. Brand new coilovers out of the box are going to be at full extension already. But the spring is not preloaded very much so it doesn't impact the ride of the truck, and once they are installed the static weight of the truck compresses them to a normal position.
So the more you crank that up, the more you just increase preload, again the shock is already fully extended it cant get any longer. This is where you get your increased ride height from. As you increase preload, the truck cant compress the coil as much at static weight.
Keep cranking up the preload and it can pretty quickly get to a point where the force required to compress the shock an inch is more than the static weight on the coilover if it were installed. When that happens you are basically just riding around on a fully extended shock 24/7, no downtravel ever! And the only time you can get any uptravel going is when you have a large load input that is enough to continue compressing the coil beyond where it already is.
But yes, ignoring shock travel restrictions you are correct.
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Good post. Worth a try. I'm sure the 700s are too much. Oddly enough, I called KING and they said 700s are ok for these trucks just take out the preload. They also said its super easy to do with coils on the truck. But in reality need to remove from truck and compress springs to adjust. Called Wheelers and they actually said only run 700s because anything lower will be too soft.
Yes, 861s are the only coil that doesn't sag under my overweight 4R. As weight increased over time from cargo additions i upgraded coils and ended up pushing the limit. Most people including Toytec said they were overkill for most people (even tho the guy from TT uses them in his 3G 4R) My LC runs over 7400lbs loaded with the same cargo if that tells you anything.
