Why the IRS hate?

[JosephD05]

Why the Independent Rear Suspension hate?

I understand that it's harder to get good wheel articulation with IRS, but that's only an issue for off roading. Lets face it, I don't care how much of an off road tough guy anyone thinks they are, it still only represents an incredible small percentage of all driving done. IRS gives you a much better ride than a live axle i feel. Also, why if IRS is SOOOO BAD, than why do all new Range ROvers have them, AND get great wheel articulation and are excellent vehicles off road? I would love if the next gen 4 runner had the on road advantages of an IRS AND good wheel articulation as well like the Rovers.

The reason I bring this up is, I notice how my truck makes a big deal out of road unevenness and other sort of road imperfections, while in my wife's 08 accord the same road imperfectons are barely noticable. Now I know they're two totally different animals, but I can see how the vast majority tend to want car based SUVs for this reason. If you don't off road or tow trailers, what is the reason for having a truck based SUV over a car based SUV? Now I LOVE my truck because it's just that...a truck. But this is cause I've always had sports cars and wanted something rugged. I'm curious to see what your answers will be to this. Please realize that I live in the north east where there is NO WHERE to off road, and it's just absolutely pointless to have a vehicle capable of going off road.

 

[simple]

I understand that it's harder to get good wheel articulation with IRS, but that's only an issue for off roading. Lets face it, I don't care how much of an off road tough guy anyone thinks they are, it still only represents an incredible small percentage of all driving done. IRS gives you a much better ride than a live axle i feel. Also, why if IRS is SOOOO BAD, than why do all new Range ROvers have them, AND get great wheel articulation and are excellent vehicles off road? I would love if the next gen 4 runner had the on road advantages of an IRS AND good wheel articulation as well like the Rovers.

The reason I bring this up is, I notice how my truck makes a big deal out of road unevenness and other sort of road imperfections, while in my wife's 08 accord the same road imperfectons are barely noticable. Now I know they're two totally different animals, but I can see how the vast majority tend to want car based SUVs for this reason. If you don't off road or tow trailers, what is the reason for having a truck based SUV over a car based SUV? Now I LOVE my truck because it's just that...a truck. But this is cause I've always had sports cars and wanted something rugged. I'm curious to see what your answers will be to this. Please realize that I live in the north east where there is NO WHERE to off road, and it's just absolutely pointless to have a vehicle capable of going off road.

Although my 4runner and general car saviness has increased exponentially since I've become a member of this forum, it took me awhile to notice you were takling abount Independant Rear SUspension vs. The Internal Revenue Service.

Carry on, I expect excellent debate.

 

[Hayn4R]

Simple.

You are funny. Sorry nothing to contribut here. But thanks for the chuckle.

Hayn4R

 

[JosephD05]

Re: Re: Why the IRS hate?

Although my 4runner and general car saviness has increased exponentially since I've become a member of this forum, it took me awhile to notice you were takling abount Independant Rear SUspension vs. The Internal Revenue Service.

Carry on, I expect excellent debate.

LOL, what's funny is that didn't even occur to me. Now I KNOW I've been checking out these boards too much

 

[banker1]

Re: Re: Why the IRS hate?

Although my 4runner and general car saviness has increased exponentially since I've become a member of this forum, it took me awhile to notice you were takling abount Independant Rear SUspension vs. The Internal Revenue Service.

Carry on, I expect excellent debate.

What he said :bigok:

Just as I'm about to write my $3,500 in checks to the Fed and State I'm thinking "Yea!!! Someone else who hates the IRS..." Oops.

 

[Thai]

You can do a search into IRS vs. solid axle debate. Independent suspension is good on-road. Solid axle is better off-road and for towing. Solid axle is more durable, articulates better, and just stronger.

 

[pat161]

Personally I wouldn't say that I hate IRS, but I also wouldn't buy any truck that had IRS. Solid axles are a tried and true design. They are failry cheap, have great articulation and are incredibly durable. The same cannot be said for IRS. If you make it articulate like a solid axle then you have sunk a lot of money into your design, that money has to be passed on to the consumer. And even with the investment a solid axle is a more simple design and has fewer weak points to break. Did Range Rover switch over to IRS because they felt it was better off road, or because that's what people wanted? Whether or not you believe people use their trucks off road isn't the point, just because I like a solid axle doesn't make me an off road tough guy.

 

[RunnerUp]

if toyota DOES move to IRS for the 5th gen 4runner, it will be NOTHING like the RANGE ROVER IRS

my friend had an 03 (first year that BMW had designed the new range) and without the amazing amount of technology they put into the ENTIRE SUSPENSION, it would be just like a lincoln navigator. i highly doubt toyota would be able to fit that much tech into a 30-40k vehicle to make it worth it.

 

[JosephD05]

Personally I wouldn't say that I hate IRS, but I also wouldn't buy any truck that had IRS. Solid axles are a tried and true design. They are failry cheap, have great articulation and are incredibly durable. The same cannot be said for IRS. If you make it articulate like a solid axle then you have sunk a lot of money into your design, that money has to be passed on to the consumer. And even with the investment a solid axle is a more simple design and has fewer weak points to break. Did Range Rover switch over to IRS because they felt it was better off road, or because that's what people wanted? Whether or not you believe people use their trucks off road isn't the point, just because I like a solid axle doesn't make me an off road tough guy.

Again, too much emphasis on OFF ROAD when the vast majority of driving is done ON ROAD. Just my two cents.

 

[Thai]

Independent suspension has more smaller moving parts than a solid axle. The parts are generally weaker. Halfshafts are smaller than in solid axle. Ground clearance is NOT static...it changes with the terrain. The center of the vehicle is high off the ground, but your control arms hang low and are susceptible to rock snag. And if you guys ever drive along a V-shaped ditch (parallel to it)...that is, one side of vehicle on one side of ditch, and the other the other side. Get out and see for yourself. Your wheels will be bending inward at the bottom...and this creates a lot of pressure on the CV joints.

Although not pointed out here, some have argued that the Humvee and Dakar racers has independent suspension. What does Humvees and road racers (seen in European races, aka Dakar) have in common?? They are designed for fast surface off-roading, like sand dunes, washboards, etc. This is why Europeans off-road much differently than us Americans. We crawl...they race. We inch over a rock...they fly over sand dunes.

Independent suspensions do have their place. However, where articulation and rock clearance are concerned, solid axle is much better. The Euro racers also have special designed shocks (see Fox shocks or Bilsteins with reservoir) and control arms to take the abuse of fast off-roading. Humvees have huge control arms with portal brakes. Powertrain is tucked up into the passenger cabin! These vehicles can take stress on the CV joints. You cannot really compare these vehicles with civilian luxo cruisers like RR. For that matter, my old Honda CRV can make the same claim.

 

[pat161]

Again, too much emphasis on OFF ROAD when the vast majority of driving is done ON ROAD. Just my two cents.

That's because I bought this truck for its off road ability. Even if I use it that way twice a year it needs to be built strong enough, and solid rear axle IS stronger than IRS. It sounds like you are unwilling to sacrifice a little onroad comfort for off road prowess, and I am quite certain that's why they make crossovers. There are plenty of vehicles with IRS, the 4Runner should stay as true to its truck origins as possible, IMO. We will never agree if all you focus on is a nice pavement ride.

 

[Baba Booey]

Re: Why the Independent Rear Suspension hate?

I understand that it's harder to get good wheel articulation with IRS, but that's only an issue for off roading. Lets face it, I don't care how much of an off road tough guy anyone thinks they are, it still only represents an incredible small percentage of all driving done. IRS gives you a much better ride than a live axle i feel. Also, why if IRS is SOOOO BAD, than why do all new Range ROvers have them, AND get great wheel articulation and are excellent vehicles off road? I would love if the next gen 4 runner had the on road advantages of an IRS AND good wheel articulation as well like the Rovers.

The reason I bring this up is, I notice how my truck makes a big deal out of road unevenness and other sort of road imperfections, while in my wife's 08 accord the same road imperfectons are barely noticable. Now I know they're two totally different animals, but I can see how the vast majority tend to want car based SUVs for this reason. If you don't off road or tow trailers, what is the reason for having a truck based SUV over a car based SUV? Now I LOVE my truck because it's just that...a truck. But this is cause I've always had sports cars and wanted something rugged. I'm curious to see what your answers will be to this. Please realize that I live in the north east where there is NO WHERE to off road, and it's just absolutely pointless to have a vehicle capable of going off road.

Toyota makes a vehicle especially for you - it's called the Highlander.

 

[JosephD05]

That's because I bought this truck for its off road ability. Even if I use it that way twice a year it needs to be built strong enough, and solid rear axle IS stronger than IRS. It sounds like you are unwilling to sacrifice a little onroad comfort for off road prowess, and I am quite certain that's why they make crossovers. There are plenty of vehicles with IRS, the 4Runner should stay as true to its truck origins as possible, IMO. We will never agree if all you focus on is a nice pavement ride.

No I do agree with you, I mean I could have purchased a car based SUV but I preferred to have the toughness of a truck based SUV. I just wish I could test drive an IRS SUV side by side again. I remember test driving the pathfinder and didn't find much of a difference in ride quality.

 

[JosephD05]

Re: Re: Why the Independent Rear Suspension hate?

Toyota makes a vehicle especially for you - it's called the Highlander.

BITE YOUR TOUNGE!! I test drove the new highlander and the steering was extremely numb, just not a fun vehicle to drive.

 

[Gromulus]

I think that is one of the special qualities of the 4Runner, and one of the reasons I picked it over the likes of the Highlander, Pilot, Envoy/Trailblazer, Exploder, and Pathfinder.

While it does have a live rear axle, it's on-road ride and handlingt dynamics are comparable to many crossovers with IRS.

I too have driven many true SUVs and crossovers and am still surprised with the comfort and handling of the 4Runner vs. the competition - both crossver and truck-based. IMO Toyota found the perfect combination with the 4Runner.

 

[Thai]

I remember test driving the pathfinder and didn't find much of a difference in ride quality.

Doesn't that answer your question? Toyota has found a magic formula to make solid axle ride well. Look at all their offerings with solid axle, it ranges from 4runner to Land Cruiser to Lexus top-dog LX570. This is what makes Toyota special...their solid axle-equipped SUV ride pretty darn well. Obviously, none of these truck-based SUVs are gonna handle as well as BMW X5, but X5 cannot match these Toyotas off pavement.

 

[Methodical]

the 4runner is the best riding live-axle suv/truck I've ever been in, and I'd wager it could be the best out there. Look at the shock mounts, as close to the wheel as possible. they paid attention to ride quality. Ive driven an explorer with IRS and it does ride smoother though.... but not very.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

It's this kind of acceptance (car based SUVs) by the general public which will spell doom for the 4Runner's off road capabilties.

There are plenty of street SUVs to choose from but us off road venturers would like to see a few of the select SUVs still maintain their off road heritage. Look at how many Toyota SUVs that are street only already so I don't think they need to compromise the 4Runner any more than they already have.

I don't have any disdain for independant suspensions but I also don't do anything to crazy in my '99 but if I chose to I'd do a SAS and fix that limitation and it is a limitation.

There are SASed Rovers that go much farther off road than their IRSed counterparts.

 

[Thai]

As far as IRS being weaker and less able to articulate off road , IF built correctly I disagree. H1 as a vehicle example

When IFS came out it was taboo for people who like their trucks , now its mostly become accepted and the norm. good lift kits are being made to compensate for that and develop better and better systems ( aftermarket)

This is not true. The Hummer H1 has HORRIBLE articulation! See any picture of it off-roading and you will see. See pic below.

Lift kits are not made to compensate for IFS weakness. Your average lift kits do NOT increase articulation nor make it stronger. Lift kits do what they do...give more height, sometimes at the expense of articulation. And as pointed out before, most lift kits of IFS actually decrease durability and reliability of IFS itself.

And if you go on FJ forum, then you will see that for serious off-roaders, IFS switch to solid axle is the way to go in the front.

 

[808BMW]

As it's been said, they made the Highlander for people who prefer on road vs. off road.
I bought my 4r because I know its a capable vehicle and if they switch to an IRS for the 5th gen I definately wouldn't be buying it.