Women Graduate Ranger School

[BrianSD_42]

I am a firm believer that if you can do the job, you can do the job. Regardless of race, gender, or religious preference. The standard should never fall...period. There is a role, no matter how much people want to deny it, for females in the SOF community, and should be hand selected, and meet the standards as well.

Agreed

 

[Akulla72]

I once thought this but I was told by more than one friend who served on the ground and saw action (I was in the Navy) that it is utter rubbish.

They said its BS to think a man would care more about a female in his unit, than another male who he is probably closer with anyways.

Just saying what me and my battle buddies discussed, but again I never saw any of our female MP's get hurt, we had to be very protective of them because the Iraqi's took way too much interest in them and it made them nervous.

 

[ben550]

Unless someone speaks up, and corrects me, that leaves us with a giant goose egg.

I don't understand why people are still giving this traction. The only thing constant is change. Get used to it.

"The Ranger Course was conceived during the Korean War and was known as the Ranger Training Command. On 10 October 1951, the Ranger Training Command was inactivated and became the Ranger Department, a branch of the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Georgia. Its purpose was, and still is, to develop combat skills of selected officers and enlisted men by requiring them to perform effectively as small unit leaders in a realistic tactical environment, under mental and physical stress approaching that found in actual combat. Emphasis is placed on the development of individual combat skills and abilities through the application of the principles of leadership while further developing military skills in the planning and conduct of dismounted infantry, airborne, airmobile, and amphibious independent squad and platoon-size operations. Graduates return to their units to pass on these skills."

The United States Army | Fort Benning

You are correct. It is a leadership school designed to simulate combat and build effective combat leaders by building their combat skills.

It is being used as a metric with which to prove women should be in combat positions.

Calling Ranger School a leadership school is like calling BUDS a swimming school.

Keep the change.

 

[HerT4R]

Hope I answered at least some of your questions.

first off thanks for the information, i very much appreciate it. as a non-military member it was nice for the insight. and you answered many of my questions, so thank you.

1) They were given three chances to pass the first phase... which is unprecedented. Dudes don't get three chances...
I have two friends who started Ranger School around this same time. One was in this class with the 19 women. Both failed on their first attempt of the first phase and were not afforded an opportunity to again. They were given a plane ticket home. These women were not allowed to fail. It was a priority for at least one of them to pass.

obviously many DID fail. and maybe there was preferential treatment on who was allowed to "recycle" in this instance, but who knows, it could have been random, we dont know, nor do i think we will ever know unless someone blatantly states it.

2) They had a cadre of female observers who were supposed to supervise the ranger instructors to ensure "fairness".
No one else gets this treatment. The male students do not have a support staff looking out for them making sure that the Ranger Instructors are not picking on them during the course. The Male students do not have Cadre who will run to the chain of command and report unfair/harsh treatment. This most likely deterred any special attention being given to any of the female students. It is the special attention that breaks people mentally. It’s a lot easier to slide by if you’re never in the spotlight of the big bad Ranger Instructors…

1. you may not see it, but men look out for one another. you already have male oversight, why not give women the same treatment? again back to sexism. the lack of female oversight could have caused prescriptive or descriptive sexism, which can be very subtle. just because its subtle doesnt mean its not there.

2. I disagree with this, many (men and women) feed off the attention and it makes them work harder. I can't say for certain which category these women are in, but likely they are used to being in the spotlight, and attracting negative male attention. they went to west point, they excelled everywhere they have been so far to make it to this point, that likely made a lot of enemies and negative attention come their way.


the following is a lot of information that i thank you for enlightening me on. but to it i only have one response.

3) They went through the course Starting in April getting the best weather of the year to help them out...
*information*
4) They went in the summer time when the packing list is significantly lighter.
*information*
5) I have not seen one picture with any of them carrying anything other than their ruck "personal packing list" and an m4 the lightest weapons system...
*information*

i can agree that weather, weapon weight, pack weight, and all other factors have an effect, on men and women, as you have stated. still, variables aside, if they make it, they make it (men and women) and if they dont, they dont.

6) Its a political agenda being pushed. Nothing more nothing less.
...
I support equality. Everyone should be treated equally under the law. People should be paid equally for equal work… etc.
Our problem comes when we think that equality = sameness or that equal opportunity = equal outcomes. As for Ranger School. Let anyone who qualifies (in the top 1% of the military) try out. But don’t treat them any different than the other students. They should not be slotted any differently, no special cadre watching out for them, no extra chances, no special exceptions, etc… Cause what happens is that equal opportunity suddenly morphs into favored treatment resulting in equal outcomes.

1. i do not think that equal opportunities = equal outcomes by any stretch. i think that equal opportunities can provide people with the same chances to succeed, whether they succeed at the same rate is on the individual, man or woman.

2. again this "cadre" is only there because there are likely NO WOMEN there in general. how many female ranger instructors are there? females in the ranger world? i don't know the proper wording but with no female oversight (in any realm, technology, engineering, business, finance, accounting, military, etc.) one half of the population at large gets overlooked. In the military, where, as of 2011 (sorry couldnt find more accurate recent numbers), only 14.5% of active duty members are women, they likely need even more oversight to ensure equal protection in the military.

...
The two women who are graduating tomorrow deserve our congratulations. They endured a lot over the past 4 months. However, it remains unclear how they made it thought the course. I just don’t see how they could have pulled the same weight as larger stronger male students. Yes, these women are probably stronger and faster than many male Soldiers. But that is not the metric we are measuring against. They entered the upper echelon of units by attending Ranger School. It is a select group of the strongest, fastest, toughest Soldiers who usually stand out from their peers. Only 1% of the Army gets a chance to attend Ranger School.There are hundreds of way more qualified men in the military than these two women who will not be given a slot to attend Ranger School.

is this the real problem? you "dont see how the could have pulled the same weight as the larger stronger male students"? if so then maybe you should hang out with some really strong women sometime, they will surprise you with their strength and speed, and they are women. check out the USA eagles womens rugby team some time or even the military schools womens rugby programs for some strong, fast women. am i saying they are as strong or as fast as all male counterparts? probably not, evolution didnt favor women in this aspect. but i think they would surprise you.

as for there being hundreds more qualified men, i cant speak to that, i dont know who applied, and who got ruled out, in favor of who was chosen. and i guess you likely do not either.

 

[HerT4R]

The only way people are tolerating this is because supposedly the SAME physical standards are being applied in the testing. But if we can agree that is a good thing and fair then why shouldn't the same standards be applied to both sexes for all jobs in the armed forces?

i think the standards should be the same, no matter how hard that makes it. the opportunity, man or woman would be the same. thats all i think is right.

again coming from a non-military member. i dont have first hand experience. i just think women should be given the chance. succession or failure is on them (man or woman).

 

[ben550]

maybe you should hang out with some really strong women sometime, they will surprise you with their strength and speed, and they are women. check out the USA eagles womens rugby team some time or even the military schools womens rugby programs for some strong, fast women. am i saying they are as strong or as fast as all male counterparts? probably not, evolution didnt favor women in this aspect. but i think they would surprise you.

as for there being hundreds more qualified men, i cant speak to that, i dont know who applied, and who got ruled out, in favor of who was chosen. and i guess you likely do not either.

True. There are many incredibility fit women out there. There are many women who can out lift/run/swim most males. My argument is that as fit as they may be, they will not match an equally fit male. Why are the WNBA and NBA not integrated? Why not combine women's softball and men's baseball to have a fully integrated MLB? It's just not possible. Except now they are engineering the military to do just that. Combine everything. Teams will not be as effective. If one team in the NBA was forced to have women on their roster, they would probably lose. This would be bad for them in the NBA, but having a losing record on the battlefield is way worse than having a losing record in a sports league...

If I were told to select a team to go fight a war with and I had to pick women to be on my team, I would without question pick these two women to be on my team. However, If I was told to pick the best team, they would probably not be on it.

i think the standards should be the same, no matter how hard that makes it. the opportunity, man or woman would be the same. thats all i think is right.

again coming from a non-military member. i dont have first hand experience. i just think women should be given the chance. succession or failure is on them (man or woman).

The standards they are saying have been met are not the true standards. The 49 pushups 50 some situps, 5 mile run in under 40 min, and 12 mile ruck in under 3 hours is a complete joke. If a male said he was qualified to go to Ranger school because he could meet the standard he would be laughed out of the office... The true standard is 2-3x that "standard" If women can do that, then they should compete with the men who are competing for the slots.

Not this: Ranger Training Phase Information , Women volunteers needed for Ranger course assessment | Article | The United States Army


So an interesting fact i just uncovered is:

"Women who complete the Ranger assessment course as students will be awarded the Ranger tab to wear, but will not be awarded associated Ranger skill identifiers due to restrictions in Title 10, U.S. Code, Section 652. The decision to change that or not is scheduled to be made by the secretary of Defense no later than Jan. 1, 2016 when he determines if women will be permitted to become Infantry Soldiers and serve in other closed military occupational specialties."

They will get to wear the tab but it will not be reflected on their ORB/credentials/Officer Record Briefs/official military records... Now that is unequal. I disagree with that. If they passed the course by the cadre/school, they should get everything that comes with it. If they were never intended to be officially qualified then why even send them.

 

[HerT4R]

So an interesting fact i just uncovered is:

"Women who complete the Ranger assessment course as students will be awarded the Ranger tab to wear, but will not be awarded associated Ranger skill identifiers due to restrictions in Title 10, U.S. Code, Section 652. The decision to change that or not is scheduled to be made by the secretary of Defense no later than Jan. 1, 2016 when he determines if women will be permitted to become Infantry Soldiers and serve in other closed military occupational specialties."

They will get to wear the tab but it will not be reflected on their ORB/credentials/Officer Record Briefs/official military records... Now that is unequal. I disagree with that. If they passed the course by the cadre/school, they should get everything that comes with it. If they were never intended to be officially qualified then why even send them.

i knew this all along. i agree with you, why give them the chance to pass, if they dont get the rewards of passing? to me, only a tab on a uniform isnt worth the effort... but thats me. maybe these women see it differently.

in any case i like that they got a shot, as fair as it could have been. maybe they will be able to inspire some girls to go forth and be what most consider "manly", break the mold, blaze their own trail, and not be held back by what others think they are capable of.

 

[jstim]

You are correct. It is a leadership school designed to simulate combat and build effective combat leaders by building their combat skills.

It is being used as a metric with which to prove women should be in combat positions.

Keep the change.

No one learns the skills needed to pass Ranger school in the school.

This must be your attempt at trying to say you have a tab. You are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to comparing Ranger school and BUDS. The tab is a school, the scroll is a way of life. Just because you have a tab doesn't mean you will ever earn the right to wear the scroll.

You can however compare the Special Forces Assessment and Selection/Qualification course to BUDS. That would be considerably more accurate.

You are absolutely right, they do simulate combat in Ranger school, aside from the lack of sleep, and lack of food, its a great way to simulate stress. Guess what, they also simulate combat in Sapper school. Does that make it a combat school as well? Probably not in your eyes, because females can graduate, and wear the tab.

No, they will not be getting the Ranger identifier because at this current juncture, the infantry, armor, and some other positions are still closed to women. At the end of the day, its a leadership school, that will go on their ERB/ORB the same as anyone elses. People will look at it the same and say, wow they sucked a bunch to get that, and can probably make decisions in stressful situations.

 

[ben550]

The tab is a school, the scroll is a way of life. Just because you have a tab doesn't mean you will ever earn the right to wear the scroll.

I agree.

 

[BrianSD_42]

No, they will not be getting the Ranger identifier because at this current juncture, the infantry, armor, and some other positions are still closed to women

Actually I'm pretty sure they will get the insignia on their uniform and their records will show they completed ranger school.

 

[Ol'Blue]

Ok, this is my .02 on this matter.

I have read everything in this post and some of it makes sense and is true and other parts of it are just BS.

I'll say this because I have been in combat just a couple time and have all the cool guy awards to back it up.

While I agree that there is a place for woman in direct support rolls, I feel that it should not be as a operator/door kicker.

While I have not went through Ranger School (because they only let very very few Marines come and play over there) I have been to more than a few Leadership Schools that were complete Ass Kickers!

The comment about how men would care of a woman in some parts is true, but I'm hear to tell you in the units I served in, if your wounded we leave you to bleed until the fun fight is over. You have to win the fight first then care for the wounded! If not your all dead make no mistake about that!!!!

Back to the topic at hand. There is allot of truth to think about on the time of year and the gear etc. While in Afghanistan my chest rig alone was 75lbs. That's just my rig. No weapon, no armor, no clothing boots etc.... So having a pack that is 75lbs is not that bad at all. When you get into a unit like the 75th I will assure you that a loaded ruck is more than 75lbs! Hell think about the Coms gear and how much that crap will add on to your pack alone. The shit is heavy!

Like it or not the standards and not equal. While I'm not going to get into a pissing match about equality and or political correctness at the end of the day I highly dough that the two women will be door kickers and at the end of the day that is not who is going to "Lead the Way"


To my fellow Rangers and close friends, I will always respect the sacrifice you and many others have made so that others can Monday night quarter back what we have gave our blood for.

Semper Fi

Ol' Blue :usa2:

 

[jstim]

Actually I'm pretty sure they will get the insignia on their uniform and their records will show they completed ranger school.

They do get the tab, just not the additional skill identifier that the males get to allow them to go to ranger coded positions.

 

[Ol'Blue]

Also.....

Even after all of this happens. Is it really going to change the culture of the Rangers amd how they really operate. Think not. Good good higher ups on looking good to get a promotion.

Blue

 

[Squirt]

Thank you for your service, and that of your fiance.. you guys are totally under appreciated and thank you isn't said enough.

 

[WFO_Racer]

Kudos to them but unless both pass the same tests it's like affirmative action for minorities. I don't want to enter surgery with a affirmative action doctor and our warriors I assume do not want to engage unless they have the strongest team possible.

 

[Doc2012]

Can I just point something out here.....



Of all the female candidates that went to IOC, NOT A SINGLE ONE PASSED.

And these are Marines.

Can someone explain how these two passed the "much harder Ranger School", but female Marines can't pass the Infantry Officer Course?

Last IOC in Marine infantry experiment drops female officers

We all know, Marines are held to a HIGHER PHYSICAL STANDARD than ANY branch, just to be able to earn the EGA.

Women have thier place in the Military. But it's not in combat, or SPECOPS.

Basic medical situations apply.


****Edit****

We're never going to know if the standards were relaxed for them, unless one of the instructors of that class comes out and says so.

But, willing to bet that they all have hush hush orders, or will be threatened with their career if they talk.

In the end, good on them for "passing", but standards should be standards.

 

[doubleroses]

It's annoying when people who have NEVER served comment about a subject like this. They have absolutely no idea how the military is besides what they read and see on TV.

 

[Bigshankhank]

It's annoying when people who have NEVER served comment about a subject like this. They have absolutely no idea how the military is besides what they read and see on TV.

Dude, Army Wives was pretty true-to-life...:lmao:

 

[doubleroses]

Dude, Army Wives was pretty true-to-life...:lmao:

Hahaha! I'm so glad my wife didn't get hooked on that show. I think she couldn't stand it because she is Prior Service and has deployed to Iraq.

 

[Ol'Blue]

It's annoying when people who have NEVER served comment about a subject like this. They have absolutely no idea how the military is besides what they read and see on TV.

But wait. They watched it on youtube so they know how it is and how it looks so it's no big deal.

:behindsofa: