Is there a way to improve 5th gens "feel" of the road?

rob_dixon said:
Quoting myself, as i did a search and found people explaining it way more. ANd the analogy is way better than my terribly unsafe example. ;-)

hyundai - what is exactly steering feedback? - Motor Vehicle Maintenance & Repair Stack Exchange

In auto parlance at the high end its called "Dynamic steering"
Dynamic steering varies the steering ratio by nearly 100 percent as a function of driving speed and the setting in the Audi drive select system in which it is integrated. Transitions are continuous and practically imperceptible.

This both makes the car feel more sporty at higher speeds and safer, while also making it easier to do things like parallel park or make a u-turn. Instead of trying to achieve the perfect balance of steering ratio and power steering assistance, these cars can vary it to give you the best of both worlds.

Hope that helps. Basically the 4Runner is poor at "steering feedback" and has no dynamic steering - this is what i want to improve as best I can for the near "perfect" vehicle
Click to expand...

You can do a lot with a light duty car suspension that you can't with a vehicle that also has to be able to handle the type of abuse that a 4Runner is intended to. Everything on the 4Runner has to be much larger and heavier. The result is a relatively heavy feeling.

There are also geometry compromises that are inherent in off road vehicles. For example on most Audi models that use a design that locates the upper ball joint over top of the tire with a pivot axis that runs approximately through the center of the tire's tread. That means you can never put a larger tire on due to physical constraint. You can't do that on a vehicle where a large portion of customers are going to put larger tires on.

There are many more compromises for a big heavy SUV, but those are just a few examples.

My guess is that you'd probably solve most of your issue with a better alignment set to around 3.5-4* caster. For comparison example a typical sedan will often have a caster angle of around 7-8*.
 
rob_dixon said:
Quoting myself, as i did a search and found people explaining it way more. ANd the analogy is way better than my terribly unsafe example. ;-)

hyundai - what is exactly steering feedback? - Motor Vehicle Maintenance & Repair Stack Exchange

In auto parlance at the high end its called "Dynamic steering"
Dynamic steering varies the steering ratio by nearly 100 percent as a function of driving speed and the setting in the Audi drive select system in which it is integrated. Transitions are continuous and practically imperceptible.

This both makes the car feel more sporty at higher speeds and safer, while also making it easier to do things like parallel park or make a u-turn. Instead of trying to achieve the perfect balance of steering ratio and power steering assistance, these cars can vary it to give you the best of both worlds.

Hope that helps. Basically the 4Runner is poor at "steering feedback" and has no dynamic steering - this is what i want to improve as best I can for the near "perfect" vehicle
Click to expand...

You could always do what i did, it’s really smooth now.
 

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Drive a lifted Jeep Wrangler with bigger tires on the freeway going 75-80 mph, that will improve your 4Rs handling perspective.

Which I had to do yesterday in my wife’s Jeep on highways with heavy construction. Mad Max hanging on for dear life in those conditions! Exhausting
 
rob_dixon said:
H, I expected some answer like "there is no problem" but the issue isn't wandering. My 4runner drives straight as an arrow. I can even take my hands safety off the wheel momentarily and on a smooth highway it drives straight.

Its FEEL of the road - as in literally, you can feel the pull of the road on your steering wheel. If you want to see what feel "feels" like, go drive an Audi, BMW X3, Porsche or Volkswagon. Now that said, I would never expect to get to that level in a 4runner. Lol just seek improvement here. Here is the example, albeit dangerous to help explain feel. And even this might not help someone might be able to explain it better.....
At 60 MPH on an open road close your eyes. (although i dont recommend this). How long can you keep your eyes closed before you feel unsafe, or you don't know where you are in spacial perception? In a 4runner, since there is no road feel, its practically immediate. In contrast, in my Audi I could, in theory, close my eyes for 4-5 seconds and know where my car is in space on the lane for that duration. (only an insane person would go longer haha - its just an example folks!)
Not trying to get into a debate about this, you either know what i am talking about or dont. (Or have no experience yet with driving vehicles with perfect feel of the road) Any old racers in here? :-)




excellent. I will investigate this option on if impacts on what i am looking for. again, its not alignment or play in the wheel.

And suspension upgrades makes sense, i would love to test drive a nice test up. Thanks ALL!!
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we came from a bmw x5M and in no way could I get the 4 runner to ever drive remotely like that SUV. It drives more like a truck than an sport or crossover suv. That is actually part of the reason we got 1. When the road stops the 4 runner keeps going and the Audi and X5 can't. No matter what you do to your Audi or BMW it will not go where I take the 4 runner at times. There is a trade off going to a real SUV that behaves ok on the road yet is truly offroad capable
 
All you need is 4.0 caster to get the feel....beyond that it isn't going to become a Road Racer no matter what.
 
Add Bilstein 5100s and max out the caster - handling is no problem. On this delightful stretch of Hwy 129, most cars and Harleys end up pulling over to let this boat around. Of course, I pull over to let the sport cars and bikes get around. Once you get used to the roll, cornering limits, and occasional stability control interventions, you can still sling it around the curves.
 

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rob_dixon said:
The stock 5th gen has very poor steering feel of the road, so its relatively easy to accidentally sway into other lanes.

I LOVE the 4Runner, but its my biggest complaint of the vehicle as it really could be a safety issue. If this could somehow be improved, I would invest a lot in order to do so.

My understand it the height is factor that causes this, (and of course the engineering in all the linkages) and it may be impossible to really improve it.

But I thought i would ask those who might be mechanically inclines and know the intricacies of this stuff.
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Drive a Wrangler right before you drive the 4R.
 
DallasTRDPro said:
Drive a Wrangler right before you drive the 4R.
Click to expand...

Just don't buy one right before you buy your 4Runner. It becomes an expensive comparison. I will say the JL Wrangler handles the curves better due to less top heavy, much better acceleration, smarter transmission, etc. but it is a pain on the open road with the noise and SFA lack of precision.
 
I have a 2016 A6 Quattro Prestige with 27k miles on it and a 2017 4Runner Limited with the same and while the Audi clearly is a better handling car I don't feel the T4R is sloppy, just slow.

Might want to check tire pressure?
 
rob_dixon said:
H, I expected some answer like "there is no problem" but the issue isn't wandering. My 4runner drives straight as an arrow. I can even take my hands safety off the wheel momentarily and on a smooth highway it drives straight.

Its FEEL of the road - as in literally, you can feel the pull of the road on your steering wheel. If you want to see what feel "feels" like, go drive an Audi, BMW X3, Porsche or Volkswagon. Now that said, I would never expect to get to that level in a 4runner. Lol just seek improvement here. Here is the example, albeit dangerous to help explain feel. And even this might not help someone might be able to explain it better.....
At 60 MPH on an open road close your eyes. (although i dont recommend this). How long can you keep your eyes closed before you feel unsafe, or you don't know where you are in spacial perception? In a 4runner, since there is no road feel, its practically immediate. In contrast, in my Audi I could, in theory, close my eyes for 4-5 seconds and know where my car is in space on the lane for that duration. (only an insane person would go longer haha - its just an example folks!)
Not trying to get into a debate about this, you either know what i am talking about or dont. (Or have no experience yet with driving vehicles with perfect feel of the road) Any old racers in here? :-)




excellent. I will investigate this option on if impacts on what i am looking for. again, its not alignment or play in the wheel.

And suspension upgrades makes sense, i would love to test drive a nice test up. Thanks ALL!!
Click to expand...
I would assume that this type of "road feel" you're referring to wasn't on the design list for the 4Runner, and never has been. I've had three different generations, and they all drove in a similar manner - a bit top-heavy, with some lean/roll in curves and corners. It's how the truck is built. My 2019 has the nicest ride of them all, btw.

If Toyota were to build in some of the crispness to which you're referring, they'd have to change the wheelbase, centers of gravity, suspension, etc. Sure, they could make a 4Runner that drives like an Audi, BMW, Porsche, or VW, but then it would look a lot like them, too, and would have the same off-road limitations. The compliant factory suspension, while not everyone's favorite, probably works against on-pavement "feel", to some extent. The advice from many others on here might lead you closer to your goal.
 
thennen said:
I would assume that this type of "road feel" you're referring to wasn't on the design list for the 4Runner, and never has been. I've had three different generations, and they all drove in a similar manner - a bit top-heavy, with some lean/roll in curves and corners. It's how the truck is built. My 2019 has the nicest ride of them all, btw.

If Toyota were to build in some of the crispness to which you're referring, they'd have to change the wheelbase, centers of gravity, suspension, etc. Sure, they could make a 4Runner that drives like an Audi, BMW, Porsche, or VW, but then it would look a lot like them, too, and would have the same off-road limitations. The compliant factory suspension, while not everyone's favorite, probably works against on-pavement "feel", to some extent. The advice from many others on here might lead you closer to your goal.
Click to expand...

^^ What he said.

To OP: Comparing a BMW X5 to a 4Runner is a literal apples to oranges comparison.

"Road feel" is what you get driving a unibody vehicle with independent front AND rear suspension, which is exactly what the Audi, BMW, etc. are. They're built for the street and maybe your average dry, dirt road. Take that Audi and the 4Runner out to the Rubicon or Moab and see which one feels better. :lmao:

There's a reason people refer to their 4Runner as their "truck", because that's what it is and what it drives like. You can improve the handling by replacing the suspension, but it's still a truck.
 
SnowYeti said:
Drive a lifted Jeep Wrangler with bigger tires on the freeway going 75-80 mph, that will improve your 4Rs handling perspective.

Which I had to do yesterday in my wife’s Jeep on highways with heavy construction. Mad Max hanging on for dear life in those conditions! Exhausting
Click to expand...


I feel your pain, my wife has a 16 JKU Black Bear with soft top and it is honestly painful to ride in much less drive.
 
thennen said:
I would assume that this type of "road feel" you're referring to wasn't on the design list for the 4Runner, and never has been. I've had three different generations, and they all drove in a similar manner - a bit top-heavy, with some lean/roll in curves and corners. It's how the truck is built. My 2019 has the nicest ride of them all, btw.

If Toyota were to build in some of the crispness to which you're referring, they'd have to change the wheelbase, centers of gravity, suspension, etc. Sure, they could make a 4Runner that drives like an Audi, BMW, Porsche, or VW, but then it would look a lot like them, too, and would have the same off-road limitations. The compliant factory suspension, while not everyone's favorite, probably works against on-pavement "feel", to some extent. The advice from many others on here might lead you closer to your goal.
Click to expand...

Interesting you've had that experience. Both me and a friend of mine have 3rd gens and just bought 5th gens and both noticed immediately how less "direct" the steering feels at higher speed. It obviously still flops in turns and has a lot of dive and body roll, but the steering wheel feel is much more direct. The 3rd gen on the whole feels a lot more "direct and connected" for some reason. That being said, I prefer so much else about the 5th gen it wasn't a major concern to me. Perhaps it's these crummy Dueler H/T tires lol.

I think it's a new car thing...almost every new car out there now has a lot more "numb" steering than cars used to. The 5th gen almost feels like it has electric steering like my 2012 F150 (which was equally numb on the highway) even though it's still hydraulic. It just has that vague "numb" electric feel for some reason. I think buyers today just don't want to feel anything in the steering wheel so manufacturers try to tune them to feel dead.
 
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rightyouareken said:
Interesting you've had that experience. Both me and a friend of mine have 3rd gens and just bought 5th gens and both noticed immediately how less "direct" the steering feels at higher speed. It obviously still flops in turns and has a lot of dive and body roll, but the steering wheel feel is much more direct. The 3rd gen on the whole feels a lot more "direct and connected" for some reason. That being said, I prefer so much else about the 5th gen it wasn't a major concern to me. Perhaps it's these crummy Dueler H/T tires lol.

I think it's a new car thing...almost every new car out there now has a lot more "numb" steering than cars used to. The 5th gen almost feels like it has electric steering like my 2012 F150 (which was equally numb on the highway) even though it's still hydraulic. It just has that vague "numb" electric feel for some reason. I think buyers today just don't want to feel anything in the steering wheel so manufacturers try to tune them to feel dead.
Click to expand...
I thought about it later, and the 3rd gen may have felt a bit different. Visually, my Gen3 seemed to have a wider wheelbase relative to vehicle height. So perhaps it did handle a little better. Can’t compare now though, since it’s gone.
 
After 5100's all around, 4.o caster and 1.25'' spacers that give track width, mine handles the twisties quite well. Stock is was a rolling, bobbing Pig.
 
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