05 4.7 V8 has intermittent extended crank time on cold/hot starts.

[Utah_4runner]

So I do have recurring P0441 (Incorrect Purge Flow), and P0456 (Very Small Evap Leak). I tested my purge valve and it opens and closes correctly, although it does have a super small leak, like 1 in/Hg per minute. My charcoal canister is good, and doesn't leak at all. I wasn't able to get a leak test on the system including the gas tank with just my little hand pump.... wayyyy too much pumping.

Alright, so since the valve opens and closes correctly and there is only a small leak I don't think that those evap codes are causing the starting issue, although I can still be convinced otherwise.

So I'm thinking about trying to replace the fuel injectors all together, they say that they have OEM flow, but are not Denso brand. They are off of ebay... should I be weary of buying these? I can also buy some Standard Motor Products injectors on Rock Auto for about the same price.

 

[325runner]

And how did you test the purge valve ? Again if it is sticking open regardless of it being small it will draw fuel through it when it shouldn't. I just had one today that did not flag a evap code but a smoke test confirmed it did not close completely. And most of the ones that do will throw a 'small leak' code.Just because it was flagged as 'small' doesnt mean its not a concern. And 'hearing' it open and close doesnt say much. Try to put compressed air through it and cycle the switch to verify if it is stuck. Also if you can pull the fuel rail with injectors up to where you can see the bottoms and cycle the key on to see if they are leaking. I hope this helps

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[waypoint]

Note: I also just did a 3 part sea foam treatment, and then replaced the spark plugs with NGK laser iridiums.

Was it taking a long time to start before the Iridium plugs were installed? My '03 Tundra V8 hated those...lost fuel mileage and took longer to start. I went back to the spec Denso copper plugs and reset the ECU, all was well.

 

[970mtnrunner]

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/a2...9e2d2982eb9e706bbf85785920171205054551/3021c6

Here is a link with 2 videos with how it has been starting. One of them is hard to hear cranking, sorry.

I have had an intermittent issue just like your video but mine would not start, just stop cranking, 03 V8.
It would happen about once every 4-6 months. First time it happened I pulled both EFI fuses to check them. It was cranking just fine so my first thought was a fuel delivery issue. After putting the fuses back in, it fired right up. This happened again about every 4-6 months, completely random and also when the engine was hot or cold. Every time it happened, I just pulled the fuses and reinserted them and it would fire right up.
Last time was about a year ago. This last time it happened I replaced the still good older fuses with some brand new ones and it hasn't happened since. The old ones just looked slightly discolored and tarnished. New ones were obviously very clean and shiny.
Also, I have a scanguage along with a Innova 31603 level 4 scanner. Never saw any type of code when this would happen.

 

[Utah_4runner]

And how did you test the purge valve ? Again if it is sticking open regardless of it being small it will draw fuel through it when it shouldn't. I just had one today that did not flag a evap code but a smoke test confirmed it did not close completely. And most of the ones that do will throw a 'small leak' code.Just because it was flagged as 'small' doesnt mean its not a concern. And 'hearing' it open and close doesnt say much. Try to put compressed air through it and cycle the switch to verify if it is stuck. Also if you can pull the fuel rail with injectors up to where you can see the bottoms and cycle the key on to see if they are leaking. I hope this helps

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I tested it by pulling vacuum and testing it with a vacuum gauge, and also by blowing into it. I opened and closed it wit ha 9V battery. Nothing super crazy, just what I found in other threads for testing it. Since it has that small leak I think I will replace it. I found a new OEM one for $40, so not too horrible.

I'll see what i can do with the injectors, thanks for the help!

 

[Utah_4runner]

Was it taking a long time to start before the Iridium plugs were installed? My '03 Tundra V8 hated those...lost fuel mileage and took longer to start. I went back to the spec Denso copper plugs and reset the ECU, all was well.

Honestly I don't remember, but I think it was doing it then too. That's an interesting thought though.

Edit: I just looked at the order history, and comparing with some pictures... I was having this problem before I changed them. Aren't the iridium plugs OEM?

 

[waypoint]

Edit: I just looked at the order history, and comparing with some pictures... I was having this problem before I changed them. Aren't the iridium plugs OEM?

My '03 specified plain copper Denso or NGK, not Iridium. Check your owner's manual. I tried Iridiums for the longer mileage between replacement but the engine was just not happy with them.

Before swapping plugs, I'd try to rule out injector leakage. For the first start after sitting overnight, have a helper start the engine while you watch the exhaust. If an injector has been leaking gas into the cylinder, you'll see a puff of gray smoke as soon as it starts...gas and liquified carbon burning off.

The other thing to check if you can scan is Long Term Fuel Trim % values for each bank. They should be within ~2% of each other, and range from -5% to +5% in all driving conditions. A malfunctioning injector will skew these values.

If you decide to swap injectors, avoid unreputable sellers. I went nuts dealing with a set of "reconditioned factory" injectors that turned out to be chinese knockoffs. Two were leakers and made my troubleshoot a real PITA. Either have yours cleaned and flow-tested at a shop like Witch Hunter, or buy known replacements at a reputable shop such as https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/fuel-injectors/toyota

 

[Utah_4runner]

My '03 specified plain copper Denso or NGK, not Iridium. Check your owner's manual. I tried Iridiums for the longer mileage between replacement but the engine was just not happy with them.

Before swapping plugs, I'd try to rule out injector leakage. For the first start after sitting overnight, have a helper start the engine while you watch the exhaust. If an injector has been leaking gas into the cylinder, you'll see a puff of gray smoke as soon as it starts...gas and liquified carbon burning off.

The other thing to check if you can scan is Long Term Fuel Trim % values for each bank. They should be within ~2% of each other, and range from -5% to +5% in all driving conditions. A malfunctioning injector will skew these values.

If you decide to swap injectors, avoid unreputable sellers. I went nuts dealing with a set of "reconditioned factory" injectors that turned out to be chinese knockoffs. Two were leakers and made my troubleshoot a real PITA. Either have yours cleaned and flow-tested at a shop like Witch Hunter, or buy known replacements at a reputable shop such as https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/fuel-injectors/toyota

My long term fuel trim is at -5.5 and -6.2. Also, my commanded air/fuel ratio doesn't quite match the actual.

 

[keakar]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum here and new to Toyotas as well which is why I need some extra help.

The problem is that my 4runner has long crank time intermittently. It doesn't matter whether it is hot or cold, or if it is a cold start or starting it within five minutes of turning it off I will either have a super quick start or a super long start. The longest it has taken is probably 7 seconds of cranking before it will start. It always starts, but its starting to worry me because I don't want something to fail and leave me stranded.

The battery tests good, the alternator tests good, the starter is cranking strong, I have tested the fuel pressure regulator with a vacuum gauge and it holds pressure, and the fuel pump relay is good.

I hooked up a fuel pressure gauge today and got these results. When I turn the key to on (not starting the vehicle) it sits at 0. When the vehicle is started the pressure goes up to 42 psi. After turning off the car the pressure drops to 38 psi, and stays above 35 psi for 5 minutes. I am used to GM vehicles, which prime the whole fuel system when the key turns to on. Is it normal that my 4runner stays at 0 when I turn the key to on? Shouldn't turning the key prime the fuel rails and get the system up to pressure?

If the pump is operating how it is supposed to, do you have any ideas of what could be wrong? Can the fuel pressure damper fail? Could it be a bad ground like 03-04 Tacomas had a problem with?

Another thing to note is that there are no fault codes that come on while driving, BUT if I turn the key to on, wait 10 seconds, then repeat twice, the ECU throws 3 fault codes. The codes are P0441 (Evap system incorrect purge flow), P0455 (Large evap system leak), and P0456 (Small evap system leak. These only come on if I "prime" the system 3 times and then start the vehicle. I get the codes as well as the VSC and traction control light. When it happens I am able to clear them and they don't come back on until I do what is described above.

I've looked around the forums and haven't found anything quite like this. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

sounds like you might have leaky injectors.

what happens is they randomly drip when the engine is off letting fuel pressure go to zero. it also floods the engine in warm start scenarios called hard warm start. its not always easy to see unless you pull the plugs on shut down and use a bore scope to confirm which injectors are dripping gas.

 

[keakar]

i would also add that you have to check them fast because sometimes after a few minutes you may not see them dripping as fuel pressure has reduced.

i had a friend with a tacoma chased this for almost a full year after an engine rebuild where she had her injectors cleaned and reconditioned. turned out she had 3 of them leaking but was only having the problem on warm starts. they leaked only under full pressure immediately after shut down and stopped dripping after just a minute or two. she went through 5 different auto shops and finally a neighbor who had a bore scope, found and fixed the problem that nobody else could find because they only tested the injectors on the bench and not in the truck with a bore scope so the pressure in the truck was somehow more then they used bench testing them.

 

[waypoint]

My long term fuel trim is at -5.5 and -6.2. Also, my commanded air/fuel ratio doesn't quite match the actual.

The long cranking time and this data suggest the engine isn't fully happy. The LTFT data likely point to either incomplete combustion due to spark plug problem, or excess injector flow on one or more cylinders on each bank.

The spark plug issue is both more likely and easier to rule out. What plugs does your vehicle owners manual specify? If they're plain copper, and not Iridium, I'd grab a set of the exact plugs specified, gap them to spec, and install them as the next step.

Also...did you adjust the gap on your Iridiums when you installed them, did you measure the gap, or install them straight from the box? All Iridium plugs I've installed (also a GM LSx fan here) state not to adjust gap or the electrode will be damaged. I generally grab 10 plugs and install the best 8 on an LS engine since I can't adjust the gap.

 

[Utah_4runner]

The long cranking time and this data suggest the engine isn't fully happy. The LTFT data likely point to either incomplete combustion due to spark plug problem, or excess injector flow on one or more cylinders on each bank.

The spark plug issue is both more likely and easier to rule out. What plugs does your vehicle owners manual specify? If they're plain copper, and not Iridium, I'd grab a set of the exact plugs specified, gap them to spec, and install them as the next step.

Also...did you adjust the gap on your Iridiums when you installed them, did you measure the gap, or install them straight from the box? All Iridium plugs I've installed (also a GM LSx fan here) state not to adjust gap or the electrode will be damaged. I generally grab 10 plugs and install the best 8 on an LS engine since I can't adjust the gap.

The 05' V8's were supposed to have the Iridium, and that is what I have now. I did not adjust the gaps, but measured them carefully and made sure that they all matched. The owners manual says that they should not be adjusted.

I have a borescope, so I'm gonna take a look tonight probably. Am I looking at the actual injector, or am I looking for pooling? I have a mini mirror I can attach to it to see the underside of the injectors.

 

[keakar]

The 05' V8's were supposed to have the Iridium, and that is what I have now. I did not adjust the gaps, but measured them carefully and made sure that they all matched. The owners manual says that they should not be adjusted.

I have a borescope, so I'm gonna take a look tonight probably. Am I looking at the actual injector, or am I looking for pooling? I have a mini mirror I can attach to it to see the underside of the injectors.

you want to be looking back up at the cylinder head to see the actual injector tip to see if its dripping or if you see a drop of fuel hanging from them indicating fuel seepage past the seal when its supposed to be shut off

 

[waypoint]

The 05' V8's were supposed to have the Iridium, and that is what I have now. I did not adjust the gaps, but measured them carefully and made sure that they all matched. The owners manual says that they should not be adjusted.

I have a borescope, so I'm gonna take a look tonight probably. Am I looking at the actual injector, or am I looking for pooling? I have a mini mirror I can attach to it to see the underside of the injectors.

That's good news, the spark plugs are low on the suspect list and it's on to the injectors. If you're able to see the injector nozzles with your borescope as [MENTION=165526]keakar[/MENTION] described, that will be a good diagnostic step. I'd also jumper the fuel pump relay while you're in there to pressurize the rail and help expose any leaking injectors.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm curious as to how you'd be able to see the injector nozzles from inside the combustion chamber on this engine. These are port injected, the injector is way up in the intake port. The intake valve would need to be open, and the viewing angle would be difficult. Let us know how this goes...keakar likely hasn't actually done this procedure, he's repeating what somebody else posted about a shop's findings.

If you find a dribbler, I'd grab a used set from a reputable seller and have them refurbed at Witch Hunter, Cruzin' Performance, etc. $125 gets a complete rail and injector set, for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TM014-2005-TOYOTA-TUNDRA-4-7-2UZ-FUEL-INJECTORS-WITH-RAIL/152317893477?fits=Make%3AToyota&hash=item2376da9b65:g:aqEAAOSwepZXRjgg&vxp=mtr

 

[Utah_4runner]

I don't think I'll be able to get a scope in there to see the injector. I have a mirror that I can put on the end of it and it reflects a 45 degree angle, but even that wouldn't work.
I found a good deal on some Standard Motor Products OEM flow matched injectors. I got all 8 for under $200. I'll replace them and let you know the results. I'm pretty confident this will fix it from what you guys have said, and from other research I've done.

 

[waypoint]

I don't think I'll be able to get a scope in there to see the injector. I have a mirror that I can put on the end of it and it reflects a 45 degree angle, but even that wouldn't work.
I found a good deal on some Standard Motor Products OEM flow matched injectors. I got all 8 for under $200. I'll replace them and let you know the results. I'm pretty confident this will fix it from what you guys have said, and from other research I've done.

Good luck, but at that price they're very likely chinese knockoffs. I'd really go with factory injectors and have them cleaned & flow tested at one of the shops I listed. It's also possible that these are good parts and I hope that's the case...let us know how they work.

 

[Utah_4runner]

Good news, everyone!
I replaced all 8 injectors last night, and it seems to have fixed my problem! The injectors that I purchased were branded as Standard Motor Products on Rock Auto, but they turned out to be stamped as Denso, which is OEM. I'm glad I got those... saved myself $400 bucks. Everything matched the old injectors, and it was a super easy install.
After removing the injectors, I noticed that the injector seal/bushing on cylinder 7 was cracked, and installed incorrectly long ago, so it didn't have a complete seal. I only had the injectors, and not the seal kit (which I regret) and had to run to the part store to get a new seal. I got a new seal, and re-used my other 7 and everything went back just how it was supposed to.
I have now had 2 cold starts, and 5 warm starts (which would usually give me the problem), but it starts right up!
Thanks for everyone's help with figuring this out. I put a lot of unnecessary parts into fixing this problem.... but I guess it's never a bad thing to have new parts in a vehicle

Side note: I solved my evap codes P0441 and P0456/455 by replacing the VSV/Purge valve and all evap system hoses. The valve had a tiny leak, and all of the hoses were looking pretty bad. So far I don't seem to have any codes coming back!
Edit: I still have the P0456 code.... "very small leak", but seemed to fix the "incorrect purge flow".

 

[keakar]

After removing the injectors, I noticed that the injector seal/bushing on cylinder 7 was cracked, and installed incorrectly long ago, so it didn't have a complete seal. I only had the injectors, and not the seal kit (which I regret) and had to run to the part store to get a new seal. I got a new seal, and re-used my other 7 and everything went back just how it was supposed to.

that broken seal was most likely causing some of the codes, it would be a big intake leak messing with fuel air mix on that cylinder.

cant believe you only replaced the one seal, that is shade tree mechanic work. if one seal is bad then the others were needing to replaced as well, so you made a mistake there, hopefully that decision to take a short cut wont come back to haunt you

 

[Utah_4runner]

that broken seal was most likely causing some of the codes, it would be a big intake leak messing with fuel air mix on that cylinder.

cant believe you only replaced the one seal, that is shade tree mechanic work. if one seal is bad then the others were needing to replaced as well, so you made a mistake there, hopefully that decision to take a short cut wont come back to haunt you

If needs be I can go back and replace the others later. The other 7 actually looked really good, so i'm not too worried. The one that is cracked was installed crooked, so it failed prematurely. Hopefully it just doesn't give me any more problems

 

[paraplan]

I'm glad you have solved your problem. I started to experience same thing on my T4R 2005 V8 after recent engine overhaul. I had, oh well, broken timing belt that damaged quite a few valves. This is the list of things that were done:
1) Resurfaced heads
2) Replaced all valves, stems and some guides (at the shop)
3) Adjusted valve clearance
4) Replaced water pump, all hoses and seals
5) Replaced all OEM vacuum hoses to silicon 4mm hoses
6) Performed compression test. Got results 160-175 psi. Cyl1 gave 190. The test was done before starting the engine for the very first time.
7) Replaced spark plugs
8) Cleaned (in the shop) all injectors. All seals were replaced as well
9) Cleaned intake manifold and throttle body
10) Replaced all belts, pulleys and tensioners

A long list of things, which took me a long time - the car was sitting for about a year in the garage. Now when everything is complete I get the long start issue exactly the same way described by OP. I have not seen the evap codes but I yet have to try turning the key 3 times to see if I can get those. However, since I already replaced bunch of parts (all OEM) the possibility of having a bad gasket is close to zero.
Don't really know what to do next :cry2:

Update: I could not get any codes after turning the key 3 times.