12 dead in Washington, D.C.

[TCMach]

You're absolutely right, in theory. The problem is if you don't "stoop-down" to their level and speak out, there will only be one voice/ viewpoint being heard.

As far as growing up in Oklahoma (I did as well), I'd say that if you're anti-gun (as opposed to just not into guns), you are treated about the same as a gun-enthusiast would be treated in many hard-core blue states.....how many times have I been called "Billy Bob" by some guy from the east or west coast because I'm a gun owner?! I guess it's just regional/ cultural differences. Not saying it's right...just the way it is.

And you're especially right on finding solutions outside the gun-control debate. The more that comes out about this guy, the more obvious it is that there were numerous break-downs in the system.

Oh i definitely agree. There is no way to speak out the right way. You have to stoop to their level or do something radical to be heard. Which is a hard, and unfortunate truth. This kind of junk is part of the reason why I dislike media and politics. Gun control is a hot topic, something like this tragedy happens and it plays right into their hands. People on both sides now want to talk gun laws like the facts have somehow changed. Nobody wants to accept the fact that guns or no guns doesn't stop this kind of thing from happening. If a nutjob really wants to kill someone a baseball bat will do, guns just happen to be easier. You take away guns and the next easiest thing will take its place.

For the record I am pro-gun and own guns. Nevertheless the fact that I believe in some gun control (not a ton) has made me a bleeding heart liberal in my home state, and a hillbilly prick in others. So I sympathize here as well.

 

[scanny]

I don't understand why people start talking about guns when tragedy like this happens. Especially on government levels. I think people should start doing something about mental illness and don't just trust that mentally ill people will take medications and everything is going to be ok. People who hear voices will find a way to kill others whether gun are easily available or not.

 

[SV_Dude]

I just didn't think that was the caliber of people we were here. You could be a little bit more considerate. I don't think I am asking for much here.

So you think that to be of a higher caliber person we need to ignore what we think could have been done and just sulk? All of us are sympathetic towards those affected by the shooting, there is no doubt in that.

The fact remains that if people were able to protect themselves then we wouldn't have nearly the issues that we have in this country. But no, too many people want to rely on the government and the police to hold their hand through life. No one wants to grow a set and take care of themselves. Those that do want to be able to defend themselves are too restricted by the government and other panzy citizens who are afraid to get their hands dirty.

 

[BrianSD_42]

The fact remains that if people were able to protect themselves then we wouldn't have nearly the issues that we have in this country. But no, too many people want to rely on the government and the police to hold their hand through life.

The problem is that with regard to the shooting that just occurred at the naval yard, you are just plain wrong to imply that everyone carrying guns (the local contractors and all the military) would have prevented this tragedy.

It's also wrong that we would be better off or safer on base if civis could open carry.

There's obvious disagreement here but I'm confident I'm right on this and know I can't be alone to say that on base rules for firearms serve a valid purpose.

 

[SV_Dude]

I'm not saying that it would have prevented but it is possible that it could have. But I do firmly believe that if people were able to protect themselves then there will be far less victims in this country. I do honestly believe that if there were more armed men at that naval yard then there wouldn't have been 12 innocent people killed hundreds or thousands of lives directly affected by it.

 

[nevada]

The problem is that with regard to the shooting that just occurred at the naval yard, you are just plain wrong to imply that everyone carrying guns (the local contractors and all the military) would have prevented this tragedy.
It's also wrong that we would be better off or safer on base if civis could open carry.

There's obvious disagreement here but I'm confident I'm right on this and know I can't be alone to say that on base rules for firearms serve a valid purpose.

how can you know that? you cant.


and what purpose is that?

 

[Kurtis]

So you think that to be of a higher caliber person we need to ignore what we think could have been done and just sulk? All of us are sympathetic towards those affected by the shooting, there is no doubt in that.

The fact remains that if people were able to protect themselves then we wouldn't have nearly the issues that we have in this country. But no, too many people want to rely on the government and the police to hold their hand through life. No one wants to grow a set and take care of themselves. Those that do want to be able to defend themselves are too restricted by the government and other panzy citizens who are afraid to get their hands dirty.

Easy with the pansy citizen shit. I have a CWP and I carry, every time I am NOT going to work on base. My .45 ACP is the absolute last thing I want to use to protect me and my own. But I would if I had to. I would much rather not have these problems at all. Everyone having a weapon would not change a damn thing. There would still be people that are mentally unhealthy doing seriously messed up shit. On the other side of the coin; if no guns existed, people would still be doing mass killings. Like that psycho a couple years ago went into an elementary school and started hitting kids in the head with a hammer. No gun. But much more messed up than shooting a gun if you ask me.

If the curtains are on fire, the water in the kitchen is boiling and it smells like smoke in the bathroom; what do you treat first? None. You get the **** out of the house because it's on fire. We are trying to treat a symptom, not the problem. If we can prevent the situation from happening we will never have to break leather to protect ourselves or our loved ones.

My point is that there is a long list of other ways to stop this before it reaches the point of shooting each other. Maybe a homicide hotline would help? Maybe the military needs to be trained in predicting violent behavior. Maybe we should provide violent behavior training? It can be done. Again, this goes back to this ass hat's past that has escalated to this shooting. The guy wasn't exactly a model citizen. I see it every time. There's a mass homicide a everyone says: "Oh, we never saw this coming!" Are you shitting me?!?! So he had multiple gun related run-ins with the law. One of which was label as an anger in-fused rage. Anyone see a red flag here? As for the positive remarks while in the Navy that CNN spoke about; just about every Sailor knows that those remarks are complete and total bullshit. Yeah, I'm sure there were really written about him in his eval but that's type of crap you put on an eval when the Sailor is screwin' up. You put polite general crap. "Great uniform!"

Ultimately this entire shooting has dick to do with guns and everything to do with us (society) not recognizing when a dirtbag is a dirtbag.

 

[SV_Dude]

Stellar idea, lets create a hotline that people can call and tell them that your neighbor, friend or coworker is going to commit mass murder because he ate your lunch or put his trash on your half of the sidewalk. Lets allow everyone to make false accusations about someone so their liberties can get stripped away too. This way we can get more Obama voters jobs while they continue to collect their Obama dollars.

I think the hotline idea is a bit of a stretch and will create more problems than it will solve. I know you and I want the same thing... Peace! It doesn't exist and it never will. This is a harsh world and the only person that's going to take care of you is you. No matter how much you try to identify bad people, they will always be bad people. So maybe the shooter had prior convictions, maybe it's now known that he was capable of hurting people. But does that mean we lock him up forever because he has the ability to hurt people? That obviously isn't going to happen.

I don't know a full proof solution to these types of problems. I don't think there ever will be. The only thing I can say for myself is to have a means to protect myself and those around me if I can. I'm not going to carry while on a military installation or anywhere else where I can get arrested for carrying. But you bet your behind that I do have a means to protect myself any time I can. I'm not saying my way is the perfect solution but I believe that it is the best way to defend yourself. If people were allowed to carry weapons in the shipyard, military installations, teachers carrying at schools then the ft hood shooting, newtown and Washington shipyard shootings probably would have been much less severe.

 

[Kurtis]

Stellar idea, lets create a hotline that people can call and tell them that your neighbor, friend or coworker is going to commit mass murder because he ate your lunch or put his trash on your half of the sidewalk. Lets allow everyone to make false accusations about someone so their liberties can get stripped away too. This way we can get more Obama voters jobs while they continue to collect their Obama dollars.

I think the hotline idea is a bit of a stretch and will create more problems than it will solve. I know you and I want the same thing... Peace! It doesn't exist and it never will. This is a harsh world and the only person that's going to take care of you is you. No matter how much you try to identify bad people, they will always be bad people. So maybe the shooter had prior convictions, maybe it's now known that he was capable of hurting people. But does that mean we lock him up forever because he has the ability to hurt people? That obviously isn't going to happen.

I don't know a full proof solution to these types of problems. I don't think there ever will be. The only thing I can say for myself is to have a means to protect myself and those around me if I can. I'm not going to carry while on a military installation or anywhere else where I can get arrested for carrying. But you bet your behind that I do have a means to protect myself any time I can. I'm not saying my way is the perfect solution but I believe that it is the best way to defend yourself. If people were allowed to carry weapons in the shipyard, military installations, teachers carrying at schools then the ft hood shooting, newtown and Washington shipyard shootings probably would have been much less severe.

We have 911 for your neighbor to call when they think you are going to kill someone. The hotline is for the person about to commit homicide. Same as a suicide hotline. If you do a little research you will find there are multiple people looking for a homicide hotline of some sort because they feel they are going to kill someone and yes, some of them do end up harming other people. I don't think the answer is to lock these people away, but to get them qualified help. Psychiatrist or psychologist. Which ever one is appropriate.

Yes studies do show that a mass killing stopped by a civilian (CWP or other) has a body count with less than a mass killing stopped by the police. Again, I'd rather not have any in the first place. If we could stop the incident before it happens I assume that would be preferable.

Just so we agree on something. Obama is an idiot.

 

[BrianSD_42]

hundreds or thousands of lives directly affected by it

do you mean the victims family? who else has been affected by this crazy a-hole.

SV_Dude I do think you mean well and because you served I will even go so far as to assume you are trustworthy with a gun. But I just don't trust "everyone else" to carry.

:fishing:

 

[tangdella]

I know exactly what you mean. The vast majority of gun owners are good people that would never think of harming a innocent person. I think gun owners are being stereotyped and demonized based on the actions of an extremely small minority.

Agree.
The criminal will think hundreds of ways to get the gun even they don't have one at first.


Wonder how this guy walked in with a shotgun and ended up with two handguns from good guys?

 

[KCcarguy]

So you think that to be of a higher caliber person we need to ignore what we think could have been done and just sulk? All of us are sympathetic towards those affected by the shooting, there is no doubt in that.

The fact remains that if people were able to protect themselves then we wouldn't have nearly the issues that we have in this country. But no, too many people want to rely on the government and the police to hold their hand through life. No one wants to grow a set and take care of themselves. Those that do want to be able to defend themselves are too restricted by the government and other panzy citizens who are afraid to get their hands dirty.

The problem is that with regard to the shooting that just occurred at the naval yard, you are just plain wrong to imply that everyone carrying guns (the local contractors and all the military) would have prevented this tragedy.

It's also wrong that we would be better off or safer on base if civis could open carry.

There's obvious disagreement here but I'm confident I'm right on this and know I can't be alone to say that on base rules for firearms serve a valid purpose.

It makes sense to me that military personnel should be allowed to CC or open carry an issued sidearm on base. I think this could potentially save lives or be a deterrent. But, I don't see any reason for civilians to carry guns on base.

More than anything, I think it's obvious the screening system needs to be reworked. Any laws, whether gun-control or arming citizens is pointless if the screening systems aren't working.

 

[SV_Dude]

do you mean the victims family? who else has been affected by this crazy a-hole.

SV_Dude I do think you mean well and because you served I will even go so far as to assume you are trustworthy with a gun. But I just don't trust "everyone else" to carry.

:fishing:

I mean the friends, family and everyone else in the country who has been affected by this nut job. When I say everyone else I mean anyone in this country who feels even more threatened because of violent acts that can affect them.

My point is that you don't have to trust anyone with a gun. You should have the absolute right to defend yourself, period! I don't trust half the nut jobs to drive on the same roads as me but they have that privelege because its necessary. More people die from car accidents than shootings but they continue to drive due to the necessity of it. Same thing goes for the ability to defend yourself. Will it cause some unnecessary grief? Sure. But I think it will create a greater good and show people who mean to do harm to others that they will be dealt with swift and brutal force.
[MENTION=62779]Kurtis[/MENTION] yes, I'm glad we can at least agree that Obama is an idiot :cheers:

 

[nevada]

It makes sense to me that military personnel should be allowed to CC or open carry an issued sidearm on base. I think this could potentially save lives or be a deterrent. But, I don't see any reason for civilians to carry guns on base.
More than anything, I think it's obvious the screening system needs to be reworked. Any laws, whether gun-control or arming citizens is pointless if the screening systems aren't working.

why not?

give me a reason why they shouldnt.

 

[Kurtis]

You would be surprise by the amount of Sailors that are NOT allowed to carry a weapon because their chain of command has recognized they are not responsible with one.

 

[soj1057]

why not?

give me a reason why they shouldnt.

National security?

 

[BrianSD_42]

You would be surprise by the amount of Sailors that are NOT allowed to carry a weapon because their chain of command has recognized they are not responsible with one.

I'm not surprised. My division (about 20 people) on ship had one guy who was banned from using a side arm because he was deemed to "high strung" by our GM Chief. The kid was thrown off the range and not allowed a weapon until the following year when he tried again during command shooting training.

But that's the Navy not the Marines or Army. I figure every Marine is required to be weapons trained.

 

[KCcarguy]

So, what we know about the shooting so far is that he did it with a SHOTGUN not an AR, and that he was given security clearance at a US military base after repeated run-ins with the law....including two that involved discharge of a weapon.... and numerous reports of mental illness, including the man himself seeking help. Now, tell me how would a Feinstein-type AWB have prevented this? This incident proves that evil people will find a weapon to do harm if an "assault rifle" isn't available. It also proves that "background checks" can easily fail and people slip though the cracks with no one ultimately held responsible. So, despite what some might have you believe, there is no easy answer to this all-to-common occurrence.

 

[KCcarguy]

why not?

give me a reason why they shouldnt.

You would be surprise by the amount of Sailors that are NOT allowed to carry a weapon because their chain of command has recognized they are not responsible with one.

WOW, that is scary. I assumed everyone would be weapons trained....shows what I know

National security?

^^^this.

 

[nevada]

National security?

if our national security is in jeapordy because people on base are allowed to carry, then those people shouldnt ever have been allowed on base to begin with. there has already been a break in security.

which takes us back full circle, to the OP.