22RE 2nd cylinder not firing

[yinger]

Hi all.

On my '88 T4R, I found that the 2nd cylinder isn't firing. From my troubleshooting, it's losing compression. I borrowed a compression tester from Autozone, and here's what I got for each cylinder:

1: 150psi
2: ~25-30psi
3: 147psi
4: 150psi

I did a leakdown test and *if* I did it right (it was my first time ever doing one and it was based off of a youtube video) it looks like I have a bad exhaust valve. If not, I'm 90% sure the issue is with either of the valves on that cylinder. I added a bit of oil to the cylinder and it didn't affect compression at all, and there's no smoke or anything coming out of the oil filler tube or valve cover when running, and the coolant isn't discolored so the head gasket seems fine.

I still need to pull off the valve cover to confirm that it's not something like a broken spring, but I'm considering just replacing the whole head and being done with it. Regardless I'm probably going to have to pull the head (and if it hasn't been done already by a previous owner, address the timing chain too).

I guess what I'm asking is if it's worth rebuilding the head with new parts where necessary or just grabbing a whole new one. Is the Amazon Prime eligible head any good?

Also, should I just make a build thread at this point cause this definitely isn't the last thread I plan on posting.

Thanks!

 

[Llowlife]

I can't really answer your question but I suspect new may actually be cheaper depending on what you wanted to do with the head

Top level rebuild will be new or reman valves, guides, valve job, seals, springs or at least set to new specs, zyglo, surfaced,

Decent rebuild resurface valves, new exhaust valve, valve job, guides where necessary, zyglo, surface.

unsure of costs especially in your area. New is new, a rebuild can be damn near as good as new but don't think it will save much. I do my own work so for me rebuilt is the way to go.

 

[cap10]

Kind of hard to make a call on that until you get the head off and give it a good look over.
I have did 3 top end rebuilds on 3.0 motors and have been real lucky so far except for the last one. I had to replace both heads because one had been resurfaced to many times and the other one had a crack.
I would pull it off and if there is nothing really drastic (crack) then take it to a machine shop that you trust and have then give you a rebuild estimate . I think the last ones I had done was around 140.00 each. Then you will need a top end gasket set and new timing chain and a thermostat and of course all new fluids.

The bottom line is , even if you decide to get a new or "different head" then you will have to buy all of the gaskets and fluids anyway.

I dont believe you mentioned how many miles you have on your engine?

 

[yinger]

Sorry if I missed some details. I plan on doing this myself and it's the first time I've ever pulled the head off an engine. The most complex engine work I've done before was a timing belt on a turbo Subaru, so I'm confident I can do it, but it is new to me.

The engine has 240K on it. I'm pretty sure it's the original. Unfortunately I don't know much of the history of the 4R as it has been bought and sold so many times.

I don't have a trusted machine shop locally so I'll have to check with some local 4x4 groups and see if there is a good one nearby.

I found this on Amazon, it has good reviews at least.

https://www.amazon.com/Evergreen-CHHSHB2000-Toyota-Cylinder-Gasket/dp/B00M8P2BFW

 

[cap10]

Dang ! I just spent the better part of 45 min writing a reply and for some reason my computer did not send it? Oh well.
Anyway, if I was you I would try and find a low mileage motor and do a engine swap.
I used to live in Cocoa Fl. for many years and I am pretty sure that Orlando has a couple of wreaking yards that should have something that would work for you.
I really like buying engines that have been operated in Fl. simply because its "easy miles" on a motor. Not a lot of Mountains is what I mean.
A friend of mine did a head rebuild on his high mileage motor and 3 months later he was using oil like crazy. Weak rings and high compression dont mix.

I hope I have just given you some "food for thought" and not caused more confusion. I just think its always good to weigh out all your options.
If you did do as I suggest (engine swap) you would have less work hours thats for sure. AND just think of all the spare parts you will have !
Most part yards that I have been to will offer a warranty of some sort also. They might be pretty pricy though so you might want to check out C.L.
If you did go with C.L. just make sure that you see the mileage on the vehicle that the motor is coming out of AND you will want to do a compression check.

Its just a thought, and it does no harm to shop .

 

[cap10]

By the way, where are you located ? If you are anywhere close to the Cocoa area I should be able to provide you with a number for a good machine shop but I will have to make some calls first.
I really miss Florida and I wish the heck I would have stayed there. I love to fish and here I am living in the desert ! ha,ha Great 4 wheeling but not much fishing going on here ! Ha,ha

 

[yinger]

I follow what you're saying with having a fresh head and 30 year old piston rings and it has crossed my mind. I'm kicking around picking up a second engine to at least freshen up and do a swap at some point, but that plan was probably a year or two down the road. With that in mind I might just see about having the head redone. Plus side is that it isn't a daily driver so I'm not in a huge rush. I might roll the dice and if it does start burning oil I'll deal with it then, I don't know.

I'm in Palm Bay so not far from Cocoa at all. I *think* there's a guy on here (if not here he's on the FL 4Runner group) that has a shop in Merritt Island I might try and hit up.

My '88 came from Arizona before it made its way to Florida two owners ago so it's blessed with little rust

 

[cap10]

Who knows? Ya might do a rebuild and never ever have a problem.

As far as doing a rebuild, dont forget to mark your timing chain/belt before you pull it free of your camshaft. In fact, I like to take pictures and mark everything I can. It makes the job so much easier when you put it back together.

Besides that, you want to make sure that you get everything as clean as possible. I used to spend hours cleaning my motors before taking them apart until I got a great deal on a steam cleaner . I cannot tell you how much easier it has made things. Even a pressure washer will do a decent job . Before I got the steam cleaner I used to warm my motor up (if it was running of course) and then apply a degreaser and let it sit for a 1/2 hour before removing it with the pressure washer.

Anyway,good luck to you. If there is anything I might be able to help with feel free to ask.

 

[yinger]

Who knows? Ya might do a rebuild and never ever have a problem.

As far as doing a rebuild, dont forget to mark your timing chain/belt before you pull it free of your camshaft. In fact, I like to take pictures and mark everything I can. It makes the job so much easier when you put it back together.

Besides that, you want to make sure that you get everything as clean as possible. I used to spend hours cleaning my motors before taking them apart until I got a great deal on a steam cleaner . I cannot tell you how much easier it has made things. Even a pressure washer will do a decent job . Before I got the steam cleaner I used to warm my motor up (if it was running of course) and then apply a degreaser and let it sit for a 1/2 hour before removing it with the pressure washer.

Anyway,good luck to you. If there is anything I might be able to help with feel free to ask.

Thanks I appreciate it. With the three good cylinders so close in PSI, nothing weird in the oil, and no odd noises coming from the bottom end I might just roll the dice on getting the head redone for now (unless I pull the head and see the cylinder is trashed) and take care of the timing chain as well while I'm at it. If it does start to look like a piston ring got fried later on down the line, I'll address it then. I got an eye out for either another engine or a pickup that's lost its battle with the rust monster. The ones that I found with a price list around ~$1500 and up which is getting close to what I paid for the whole truck.

 

[cap10]

Wow ! Thats a lot of money for a used motor. I can see why you want to do a rebuild.
A friend of mine owned a used car lot in Cocoa and he used to get really ,really good deals on cars and bikes through the auction. I believe it was in Orlando.
The next time I call back there I will find out more.

 

[yinger]

So I pulled the valve cover off which really didn't reveal anything significant. What I am curious about is I'm not really sure that this is the original head or timing chain. I looked down into where the chain connects to the crankshaft and the guides were in really good shape and I'm thinking they've been replaced. I guess I'm going to actually pull the head to see what's going on though.

I think I might borrow a compression tester again and do another compression and leak down test, with the leak down being done while the cover is off so I can confirm both valves are closed.

 

[yinger]

I did another compression test - this time with a brand new tester that I borrowed from AutoZone. After the engine cranked 4 times (with all the plugs out), on cylinders 1, 3, and 4, all were right at 200psi and held pressure, while cylinder 2 barely made the needle move. With the valve cover off, I did another leak down test on that cylinder ensuring both the exhaust and intake valves were both closed. While doing that, air was flowing freely out the exhaust pipe, so it sounds like a bad exhaust valve after all.

Looks like I'm pulling the head soon.

 

[Llowlife]

Your diagnosis sounds correct. If you were in mn I'd say let's just do a new valve, guide, and touch up the seats and valves.

Is the exhaust rocker loose when the cam is on the heel

You could measure spring height with a calipers. Not 100 percent accurate but would tell you if valve is closing completely. Did the clearance on the rocker tighten up, something stuck on the seat, etc. These are all very long shots but I've seen them all. Sometimes with a leakdown test I've smacked the valve with a brass hammer just for good measure.

 

[yinger]

Your diagnosis sounds correct. If you were in mn I'd say let's just do a new valve, guide, and touch up the seats and valves.

Is the exhaust rocker loose when the cam is on the heel

You could measure spring height with a calipers. Not 100 percent accurate but would tell you if valve is closing completely. Did the clearance on the rocker tighten up, something stuck on the seat, etc. These are all very long shots but I've seen them all. Sometimes with a leakdown test I've smacked the valve with a brass hammer just for good measure.

No, in fact it's probably tighter on that particular valve than the others. I did smack it a couple of times with a ratchet with no change. Figured it was broken anyway, why the hell not lol.

 

[cap10]

It really does not matter much at this point but did you find much "slop" in your timing chain?
When you take it to a machine shop they can tell you if the head has been reworked before.

 

[yinger]

It really does not matter much at this point but did you find much "slop" in your timing chain?
When you take it to a machine shop they can tell you if the head has been reworked before.

It did have a decent amount of slop - I meant to ask about how much it should have. If it had been redone in the past that would make sense.

 

[yinger]

Not really sure what I might have done but I put everything back together and now I can't get it to start at all .

All of the plugs wires are in the right spots and I compared all of the pictures I took of wires and vacuum lines and ensured that they're right. If I spray some starter spray into the intake it'll run for a second or two so it's acting like it's not getting fuel.

I jumped the connectors to see if I got some sort of indicator via the CEL. I'd appreciate some help translating what it's stating and where to start as it's definitely throwing codes. Youtube of the CEL output below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS_QxOaqrSU

 

[Pick_T4R]

If I interpreted your codes correctly, looks like you have two: 6 & 11. I don;t have a manual but quick Google search shows:
6: RPM signal
11: Switch Signal - neutral start switch ON (22re) or IDL point in throttle position sensor is OFF during diagnostic check

If I spray some starter spray into the intake it'll run for a second or two so it's acting like it's not getting fuel.

Have you cracked the fuel lines to see if you're getting fuel to the throttle body?

 

[yinger]

If I interpreted your codes correctly, looks like you have two: 6 & 11. I don;t have a manual but quick Google search shows:
6: RPM signal
11: Switch Signal - neutral start switch ON (22re) or IDL point in throttle position sensor is OFF during diagnostic check

Thanks. That's what I thought, just wasn't sure if that was one code or two separate codes going on. This is the first non-OBDII vehicle I've ever wrenched on extensively so kind of a learning process.

Have you cracked the fuel lines to see if you're getting fuel to the throttle body?

Not yet. That'll be my next step.

 

[yinger]

Dang ! I just spent the better part of 45 min writing a reply and for some reason my computer did not send it? Oh well.
Anyway, if I was you I would try and find a low mileage motor and do a engine swap.
I used to live in Cocoa Fl. for many years and I am pretty sure that Orlando has a couple of wreaking yards that should have something that would work for you.
I really like buying engines that have been operated in Fl. simply because its "easy miles" on a motor. Not a lot of Mountains is what I mean.
A friend of mine did a head rebuild on his high mileage motor and 3 months later he was using oil like crazy. Weak rings and high compression dont mix.

I hope I have just given you some "food for thought" and not caused more confusion. I just think its always good to weigh out all your options.
If you did do as I suggest (engine swap) you would have less work hours thats for sure. AND just think of all the spare parts you will have !
Most part yards that I have been to will offer a warranty of some sort also. They might be pretty pricy though so you might want to check out C.L.
If you did go with C.L. just make sure that you see the mileage on the vehicle that the motor is coming out of AND you will want to do a compression check.

Its just a thought, and it does no harm to shop .

Coming back to this, I found a guy 5 minutes away selling a 22RE out of a '93 pickup for $200 that he says "runs great" but is currently out of the truck. Other than mileage, what can I ask or look at to see if this is worth my time or not? I'm very tempted to roll the dice on it but at the same time don't want to end up with an anchor sitting in my garage.