3rd Gen Alignment Qs with aftermarket UCA and 33s

[WeakSauz]

Hi guys,

I have a question about aligning our 3rd gens for optimal tire fitment (33s).

Here’s some history:
- I run a Wheeler’s Eibach lift, minimal 2” in front
- I have had Skinny pizza-cutter 33” BFG KM2 255/85/16 MT tires for over a year and they’ve never rubbed

Until...
- I recently installed BTF Fabrication Uniball UCAs—They did push the wheel backward quite a bit, into the rear of the inner fender (effectively shortening the wheelbase). I love these UCAS- the on-road feel is amazing.

I’ve gotten an alignment, and it drives as straight as an arrow—Here are specs:

Left Front: 0.0 Camber, 3.3 Caster, 0.12 Toe
Right Front: 0.3 Camber, 3.2 Caster, 0.09 Toe
.21 Total Toe, 0.01 Steer Ahead

The question is: What can I do to push the wheel more forward in the wheel well, away from the rear of the inner fender? The UCAs are not adjustable. Is there a way to effectively “move” the LBJ forward?

And, if I technically COULD move the wheel more centered in the wheel arch, wouldn’t that affect the rest of the alignment. Would it negate the purpose of aftermarket UCAs altogether?

Thanks!

 

[APhelps]

you can buy aftermarket lower control arms that push the wheel about 1" forward. Be prepared to drop like 1k though.

 

[WeakSauz]

you can buy aftermarket lower control arms that push the wheel about 1" forward. Be prepared to drop like 1k though.

I've seen the Solo Motorsports LCAs, and I was tempted last Black Friday at $999.

I would love to see them make a boxed LCA, stock length, which incorporates a Uniball LBJ to remove the OEM weak unit. And, moves the wheel an inch or so forward. I would buy that.

 

[APhelps]

I've seen the Solo Motorsports LCAs, and I was tempted last Black Friday at $999.

I would love to see them make a boxed LCA, stock length, which incorporates a Uniball LBJ to remove the OEM weak unit. And, moves the wheel an inch or so forward. I would buy that.

I’m confused, isn’t that exactly what they sell?

 

[Coward]

I've seen the Solo Motorsports LCAs, and I was tempted last Black Friday at $999.

I would love to see them make a boxed LCA, stock length, which incorporates a Uniball LBJ to remove the OEM weak unit. And, moves the wheel an inch or so forward. I would buy that.

Those are nice UCA! Looks like you will need to clearance the body now that your alignment has been corrected. or a body lift. Someone else correct me, but if you install those LCA with the ball joint moved forward you will have crazy caster. I would think you would need adjustable uppers as well to make it all work?

 

[rexassian]

You could push the lower control arm forward a bit. You basically have to adjust the lower cam bolts to min camber in the front bolt and max camber in the rear bolt, this will effectively push the lower control arm forward.

You could also swap to the SPC upper control arms which have adjustable positions for the upper ball joint.

check this thread for info : SPC UCA Alignment Sheets

 

[mesooohoppy]

i was under the assumption aftermarket UCAs help correct the caster when you raise the vehicle. my total chaos UCAs put them both right at 2.0 degrees and the alignment tech made a comment about how he couldnt adjust them to spec and how it was the 'only thing that stood out to him'. he said he saw the UCAs and the face that they were aftermarket so he just left it at that.

it would be much easier to trim whatever you need to trim versus dropping 1k on LCAs and throwing your caster out of wack. trimming is basically mandatory for 33s. i have 33s and a 3" lift.

 

[WeakSauz]

For the record, I have already done the pinch weld mod and re-shaped the fender liner with a heat gun

 

[WeakSauz]

I’m confused, isn’t that exactly what they sell?

I do not think they replace the OEM LBJ design? Unless I am missing that part

 

[mesooohoppy]

I’m confused, isn’t that exactly what they sell?

I do not think they replace the OEM LBJ design? Unless I am missing that part

look at their website. you can clearly see the OEM LBJs installed in the pics.

the uniball LBJ has been tried a few times and it seems as if no one has ever been able to bring something like this to the market. here is an 11 page thread on it:

-----Lower Ball Joint- Uniball Conversion-----

i quickly scrolled through it and saw atleast three people (including the OP) attempt this. not one person made it to the finish line and started selling.

edit:
i stand (semi) corrected. according to this thread someone did attempt to sell them but they were sub par and stopped selling shortly thereafter:
Uniball LBJ | Tacoma World

 

[UnderFire]

Looks at the alignment cams on the lower control arms. The bolt head on the rearward cams should be all the way pushed to the outside on both sides. This is the max caster setting and what will push the wheels forward in the wheel well. The difference between the two maximums is huge, at least a couple inches.

Having these cams maxed out with stock uppers (which is 100% possible despite some claims) causes the vehicle to have a super hard return to center tendency on the steering. The main point of the aftermarket UCA's is to correct for the cams being set this way by moving the upper pivot, not to directly move the wheel forward.

If your rearward cams are not maxed out, then that's your issue. You'll have to have it realigned, and specify you want the caster maxed out, and the rearward cams fully extended.

Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk

 

[MStudt]

I’m confused, isn’t that exactly what they sell?

No, they utilize the OEM LBJ. They'll make them with a uniball lower, but then you'll have to buy their boxed spindles.

Mike

 

[WeakSauz]

Looks at the alignment cams on the lower control arms. The bolt head on the rearward cams should be all the way pushed to the outside on both sides. This is the max caster setting and what will push the wheels forward in the wheel well. The difference between the two maximums is huge, at least a couple inches.

Having these cams maxed out with stock uppers (which is 100% possible despite some claims) causes the vehicle to have a super hard return to center tendency on the steering. The main point of the aftermarket UCA's is to correct for the cams being set this way by moving the upper pivot, not to directly move the wheel forward.

If your rearward cams are not maxed out, then that's your issue. You'll have to have it realigned, and specify you want the caster maxed out, and the rearward cams fully extended.

Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk

Thank you!! This is great info

I've included some pics to assist here below. Open to what anyone thinks- Can visually see how rearward stuffed the wheel is:

Now, the alignment Cams:

 

[WeakSauz]

You guys can see that if I tried to wheel this thing as it is currently situated, i'd bend the front fenders badly. That wheel is waaay back

 

[APhelps]

No, they utilize the OEM LBJ. They'll make them with a uniball lower, but then you'll have to buy their boxed spindles.

Mike

Yeah I see that upon closer inspection. Pricey LCAs for still using the oem lbj.

 

[UnderFire]

Thank you!! This is great info



I've included some pics to assist here below. Open to what anyone thinks- Can visually see how rearward stuffed the wheel is:

Now, the alignment Cams:

Yes, exactly what I suspected. Your cams are basically the exact opposite of where they should be. The front cams being all the way out pushed the tire back towards the fender and the rear cams being relatively neutral doesn't help that matter either. Have it realigned the other way and your problem should be cured. If you wanted, you could also adjust the cams yourself, pushing the rears all the way out and the fronts to slightly inward and have a shop do a toe set for you without adjusting the cams.

The numbers may not look right on the machine but you've got aftermarket geometry so it doesn't matter. Just watch out for camber in excess of about 1 degree and you're golden.
Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk

 

[WeakSauz]

Yes, exactly what I suspected. Your cams are basically the exact opposite of where they should be. The front cams being all the way out pushed the tire back towards the fender and the rear cams being relatively neutral doesn't help that matter either. Have it realigned the other way and your problem should be cured. If you wanted, you could also adjust the cams yourself, pushing the rears all the way out and the fronts to slightly inward and have a shop do a toe set for you without adjusting the cams.

The numbers may not look right on the machine but you've got aftermarket geometry so it doesn't matter. Just watch out for camber in excess of about 1 degree and you're golden.
Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk

I owe you one- exactly the info I needed. I think, to your point, alignment techs are seeing the computer show "all green", but it kinda goes all out of the window when suspension geometry is not OEM. Thank you sir.

 

[jkeith.w]

Someone else correct me, but if you install those LCA with the ball joint moved forward you will have crazy caster. I would think you would need adjustable uppers as well to make it all work?

i was under the assumption aftermarket UCAs help correct the caster when you raise the vehicle.

The Solo LCAs move the LBJ forward to correct caster with a stock UCA (or aftermarket UCA, but with the stock UBJ position). Wheel moves forward in wheel well as a result. (which also has benefits in terms of firewall clearance and approach angle)

Most aftermarket UCAs move the UBJ rearward to correct caster - but this increases firewall interference (wheel moves back toward firewall).

I'm of the camp that thinks the factory LBJ is fine if replaced at a reasonable interval.

 

[mesooohoppy]

The Solo LCAs move the LBJ forward to correct caster with a stock UCA (or aftermarket UCA, but with the stock UBJ position). Wheel moves forward in wheel well as a result. (which also has benefits in terms of firewall clearance and approach angle)

Most aftermarket UCAs move the UBJ rearward to correct caster - but this increases firewall interference (wheel moves back toward firewall).

I'm of the camp that thinks the factory LBJ is fine if replaced at a reasonable interval.

good to know. thank you.

i have seen threads in the past with people bashing on the OEM LBJ design, although they provide zero proof why the design is a 'bad' design. i think they're just angry toyota didnt design it the way they wanted it to be designed.

i changed mine last november and im sure they were from the factory at 235k. thats pretty good to me! if someone wants a uniball LBJ bad enough, they can make it themselves although its not as simple as stuffing a uniball into a modded OEM LBJ as others have tried in the past (the tacoma link i provided earlier proves this point).

look at me, telling the great [MENTION=28464]eimkeith[/MENTION] designing something isnt going to be easy. want a new project?

 

[jkeith.w]

good to know. thank you.

i have seen threads in the past with people bashing on the OEM LBJ design, although they provide zero proof why the design is a 'bad' design. i think they're just angry toyota didnt design it the way they wanted it to be designed.

i changed mine last november and im sure they were from the factory at 235k. thats pretty good to me! if someone wants a uniball LBJ bad enough, they can make it themselves although its not as simple as stuffing a uniball into a modded OEM LBJ as others have tried in the past (the tacoma link i provided earlier proves this point).

look at me, telling the great [MENTION=28464]eimkeith[/MENTION] designing something isnt going to be easy. want a new project?

lol - I spent more than a minute looking at alternatives to the LBJ design; eventually, I didn't see the upside in changing it - although I recognize the additional safety factor that Toyota introduced by inverting it on the 4th gen.

That said, some really smart folk may come along and astound us all with an out of the box alternative. For now, I'm just considering them as wear items.

Jason Hoffman and I discussed this a bit on the Toyota Trucks and Trails podcast recently, and I know [MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] has voiced his opinion about heims/sphericals used on road-going vehicles a bit on the F/R Locked podcast as well - lots of discussion on the factory LBJs going on nowadays.