4Runner Rollover

[mbumpus11]

Was looking at a thread of a T4R wreck (sad, but everyone is fine!) just a minute ago and got curious about the 4Runner on-road rollover resistance.

Obviously the risk of rollover increases as lifts and other modifications are added, but I stumbled upon this video on YouTube showing a "stock" 4Runner at 32 mph, and a "modified" 4Runner at 67.5 mph (both older) with no description of how it is modified. See link below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl8y2qJbooo

What modifications can even create such a skid without having wet pavement?! I've never seen any SUV go sideways at 65+ mph and keep all four wheels on the ground, but then again I don't go hunting for SUVs that are used to drift corners.

Wondering if any of y'all know how this is even possible. Simple curiosity

 

[jwkilgore]

First, that's a video by a law firm trying to get you to hire them to sue someone, and they used careful editing. Or maybe they're trying to sell custom "safety" modifications.

The "modified" video is a 4Runner going straight into a tires-locked side skid. Quick turn immediately followed by locking the emergency brake. All modern passenger vehicles have to be rated for basic rollover resistance. I honestly don't know if any modern vehicle can be USA certified if will roll over in that situation. And as long as the wheels are skidding, it doesn't matter if they are sliding at 30mph or 60mph.

The "stock" video was shot from a careful angle and has been cut, but you can tell it was conducted similar to a "moose test" scenario. Wheel jerked hard one way, then when vehicle is at full lean jerk it back the other direction (to simulate dodging a moose that just jumped out in front of you, then jerking the wheel back to stay on the road). The full momentum of the SUV body slings over itself and causes the rollover.

My money says that under identical tests, the "stock" 4Runner would skid just like the "modified" 4Runner.

As for mods, anything that lowers the center of gravity and/or keeps the body aligned with the suspension. Adding a few hundred pounds of low-slung weight in the form of beefier skids, rocker slides, and bumpers jumps to mind. Also replacing the stabilizer bars with beefier aftermarket versions or upgrading the shocks.


Incidentally, neither of those are 5th-Gen 4Runners.

 

[Titanpat57]

looks like a 3rd gen..moot point

 

[BlackWorksInc]

They don't mention how it was modified among other issues.

 

[e60ral]

The 4Runner is rated decently (no SUVs are great) for rollover by the NHTSA, it didn't roll in their test

Consumer Reports does rollover testing for some vehicles, anyone a member who could check if they did any for the 4Runner?

 

[mbumpus11]

First, that's a video by a law firm trying to get you to hire them to sue someone, and they used careful editing. Or maybe they're trying to sell custom "safety" modifications.

The "modified" video is a 4Runner going straight into a tires-locked side skid. Quick turn immediately followed by locking the emergency brake. All modern passenger vehicles have to be rated for basic rollover resistance. I honestly don't know if any modern vehicle can be USA certified if will roll over in that situation. And as long as the wheels are skidding, it doesn't matter if they are sliding at 30mph or 60mph.

The "stock" video was shot from a careful angle and has been cut, but you can tell it was conducted similar to a "moose test" scenario. Wheel jerked hard one way, then when vehicle is at full lean jerk it back the other direction (to simulate dodging a moose that just jumped out in front of you, then jerking the wheel back to stay on the road). The full momentum of the SUV body slings over itself and causes the rollover.

My money says that under identical tests, the "stock" 4Runner would skid just like the "modified" 4Runner.

As for mods, anything that lowers the center of gravity and/or keeps the body aligned with the suspension. Adding a few hundred pounds of low-slung weight in the form of beefier skids, rocker slides, and bumpers jumps to mind. Also replacing the stabilizer bars with beefier aftermarket versions or upgrading the shocks.


Incidentally, neither of those are 5th-Gen 4Runners.

Appreciate the in depth response as that all makes sense. I realize neither are 5th Gen...I drive a 5th gen. The cutting and editing of the video and slight differences in maneuvering is precisely what I was wondering if they were doing, or if there really were modifications that helped it to stay seated. I was unaware there are ways to slide completely sideways like that in an SUV and not roll. Your answer was helpful.

looks like a 3rd gen..moot point

They don't mention how it was modified among other issues.

[MENTION=47340]Titanpat57[/MENTION], it does look like a 3rd Gen, but the laws of physics aren't selective with how they impact different generations of the same vehicle (or any SUV vs SUV for that matter). Do the "moose test" from above and I bet the same thing would happen in a 1st or a 5th gen...or in a Tahoe...or Jeep...
[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] you are correct, which was why I was asking if it was feasible/what mods allowed it to do that.

Please don't take me for an idiot for asking for clarifying questions as A) we all know that the 4Runner hasn't changed much from generation to generation, B) we all know the capabilities and weaknesses of these vehicles (i.e. rollover because it is an SUV), C) I don't believe this is a stupid question because as [MENTION=126566]jwkilgore[/MENTION] pointed out there are very practical ways that cause COG to be lower and hold the vehicle to the ground and increase rollover resistance.

 

[1engineer]

Appreciate the in depth response as that all makes sense. I realize neither are 5th Gen...I drive a 5th gen. The cutting and editing of the video and slight differences in maneuvering is precisely what I was wondering if they were doing, or if there really were modifications that helped it to stay seated. I was unaware there are ways to slide completely sideways like that in an SUV and not roll. Your answer was helpful.





[MENTION=47340]Titanpat57[/MENTION], it does look like a 3rd Gen, but the laws of physics aren't selective with how they impact different generations of the same vehicle (or any SUV vs SUV for that matter). Do the "moose test" from above and I bet the same thing would happen in a 1st or a 5th gen...or in a Tahoe...or Jeep...

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] you are correct, which was why I was asking if it was feasible/what mods allowed it to do that.

Please don't take me for an idiot for asking for clarifying questions as A) we all know that the 4Runner hasn't changed much from generation to generation, B) we all know the capabilities and weaknesses of these vehicles (i.e. rollover because it is an SUV), C) I don't believe this is a stupid question because as [MENTION=126566]jwkilgore[/MENTION] pointed out there are very practical ways that cause COG to be lower and hold the vehicle to the ground and increase rollover resistance.

I beg to differ one point:
The VSC of a 5th gen will cause a much different result if the exact same avoidance maneuver was conducted in a 3rd Gen 4Runner. Modern electronics have their place in safety.

Now, one point to consider, and one that is responsible for many rollovers, is the trip rollover. That would be a vehicle sliding (snow, wet pavement) sideways into a curb and both front and rear tires hit the curb broadside. THAT scenario is common and no amount of electronics will help in that situation. The higher CG will always lose there, so lifted is bad in that condition.

 

[Titanpat57]

Appreciate the in depth response as that all makes sense. I realize neither are 5th Gen...I drive a 5th gen. The cutting and editing of the video and slight differences in maneuvering is precisely what I was wondering if they were doing, or if there really were modifications that helped it to stay seated. I was unaware there are ways to slide completely sideways like that in an SUV and not roll. Your answer was helpful.





[MENTION=47340]Titanpat57[/MENTION], it does look like a 3rd Gen, but the laws of physics aren't selective with how they impact different generations of the same vehicle (or any SUV vs SUV for that matter). Do the "moose test" from above and I bet the same thing would happen in a 1st or a 5th gen...or in a Tahoe...or Jeep...

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] you are correct, which was why I was asking if it was feasible/what mods allowed it to do that.

Please don't take me for an idiot for asking for clarifying questions as A) we all know that the 4Runner hasn't changed much from generation to generation, B) we all know the capabilities and weaknesses of these vehicles (i.e. rollover because it is an SUV), C) I don't believe this is a stupid question because as [MENTION=126566]jwkilgore[/MENTION] pointed out there are very practical ways that cause COG to be lower and hold the vehicle to the ground and increase rollover resistance.

I don't think your taking certain things into consideration...the 3rd gen in the video(and I don't know this for a fact) probably doesn't have all the electronic nannie systems our 5th gens are equipped with...I don't see you doing with our trucks what that truck in the video was doing without a whole bunch of sensors taking over..and pretty much stopping it

 

[cjacob316]

you guys see this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjhNnEL26Vs

Impressed how sturdy the roof seemed in that one. Now, be real here, they intentionally tried to flip these vehicles, and you can probably flip any vehicle you want if you do what they did in this vehicle. The key is knowing how to actually react if you lose control like that. I got T-boned in my 3rd gen by a suburban while I was at 40 mph and it spun me around and i felt the wheels try to leave the dry pavement, I was able to recover and keep all tires on the ground. Dry pavement probably makes it easier to flip.

 

[CrazyNorwegian]

There is so many factors involved in that video that are not stated. The video of the 4Runner rolling could have its tire pressure set down much lower. This would add much more traction and increase the likelihood of a rollover. Second, since traction is a major player in this scenario, locking the brakes at a high speed will essentially have you driving on a layer of melted rubber further reducing your traction. Anyone who knows the term threshold braking in the racing world knows this. Yes, lifting your 4 runner will raise the center of gravity, yes going with much wider tires would increase your traction. Both would increase your likelihood of a rollover. That is just one factor in deciding if your vehicle is going to roll.

 

[e60ral]

[MENTION=47340]Titanpat57[/MENTION], it does look like a 3rd Gen, but the laws of physics aren't selective with how they impact different generations of the same vehicle (or any SUV vs SUV for that matter). Do the "moose test" from above and I bet the same thing would happen in a 1st or a 5th gen...or in a Tahoe...or Jeep...

it's not the laws of physics changing, its the physical design, suspension, and electronic stability control that is changing. If Toyota releases a 6th gen 4runner that is a re-badged scion FRS it isn't going to struggle with rollover manuever just because its a 4runner. The different generations are entirely different vehicles, you can't compare the 3rd gen with 5th gen.

Even in the same generation, very small tuning can make a difference. For example, the Lexus GX 460 had problems in the rollover test, Toyota made some small changes to the stability control and the vehicle passed the retest.

as far as what changes could have been made in the second video: really high tire pressure, tire choice, stiffer anti-sway bars, firmer springs, shocks, etc... there is a lot you can do to help it just probably won't be a very comfortable ride

 

[Jetboy]

I couldn't find a 5th gen moose test. The electronics should do this:
See at 3:50ish
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ALscsi2PkAw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is not how a modern vehicle should act:
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zaYFLb8WMGM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It appears to me that the Jeep is WAY under dampened with its shocks. And the springs are too soft. Combine that with a high COG and it's pretty much 1990 ford explorer performance.

 

[e60ral]

Here is an example of how VSC tweaks can help:
https://youtu.be/-cZ26tN5Aeg
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-cZ26tN5Aeg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Bevo]

This is not how a modern vehicle should act:
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zaYFLb8WMGM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It appears to me that the Jeep is WAY under dampened with its shocks. And the springs are too soft. Combine that with a high COG and it's pretty much 1990 ford explorer performance.

What the hell are those crazy bastards doing standing at the end of the skidpad. They must have a death wish.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I could roll a new Corvette if you give me one and a helmet.

Yes I could. If we test the laws of physics any vehicle can be forced to do bad things.

SUV's have high centers of gravity. This should not be a surprise to anybody.

Let's take the stupid test even further. Run ten different vehicles into a brick wall at 75 MPH and declare the winner the one who the driver only has three body parts ripped off.

Thats how I feel about these idiotic tests that have no other intent than to push a given vehicle beyond it's limits and then say "It failed".

My .02

 

[1engineer]

I could roll a new Corvette if you give me one and a helmet.

Yes I could. If we test the laws of physics any vehicle can be forced to do bad things.

SUV's have high centers of gravity. This should not be a surprise to anybody.

Let's take the stupid test even further. Run ten different vehicles into a brick wall at 75 MPH and declare the winner the one who the driver only has three body parts ripped off.

Thats how I feel about these idiotic tests that have no other intent than to push a given vehicle beyond it's limits and then say "It failed".

My .02

You think the moose test is idiotic? Really?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

You think the moose test is idiotic? Really?

Not at all. I am saying the premise of these tests are based on making failure happen.

I am saying that ANY test that is designed to push a vehicle beyond it's limitations and then say it failed is bullshit.

I can take a space shuttle and fly it into the sun and when it blows up, say it failed. Does that make the space shuttle a piece of junk? Of course not.

SUV's by nature are not sports cars. Take a school bus and do the "Moose Test" and you'll roll it on it's side every time.

Not sure what we are arguing here. SUV's are not sports cars. We all know that.

 

[1engineer]

Not at all. I am saying the premise of these tests are based on making failure happen.

I am saying that ANY test that is designed to push a vehicle beyond it's limitations and then say it failed is bullshit.

I can take a space shuttle and fly it into the sun and when it blows up, say it failed. Does that make the space shuttle a piece of junk? Of course not.

SUV's by nature are not sports cars. Take a school bus and do the "Moose Test" and you'll roll it on it's side every time.

Not sure what we are arguing here. SUV's are not sports cars. We all know that.

But see, SUV's, even though they are not sports cars, because of vehicle stability systems, have the ABILITY to swerve at 42 mph safely. The space shuttle does not have the potential ability to fly it into the sun safely. If a machine has the ability to perform a task and an expectation from operators that task can be achieved (swerving at 42 mph) AND other like vehicles can perform that task safely, then your machine had damn better be able to swerve, unlike the Jeep. It's all about ability and expectations.

 

[e60ral]

Not being a sports car doesn't mean that a vehicle shouldn't be able to pass a moose test. A moose test shouldn't be beyond a vehicles ability if buyers are expecting it to have that ability, and most buyers expect their daily driver to have that ability. It takes more work for the engineers to design the suspension and electronic controls on a vehicle with high cg, but it's not impossible and that's made evident by all the SUVs that can do it.

Saying that things like the moose test is not important ignores that most SUVs are purchased to drive on roads daily and not as purpose built utility vehicles. If SUVs were only supposed to be utility vehicles, they would all come with solid front and rear axle and no sway bars and they would no longer be such a popular vehicle class.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

 

[Jetboy]

Not at all. I am saying the premise of these tests are based on making failure happen.

I am saying that ANY test that is designed to push a vehicle beyond it's limitations and then say it failed is bullshit.

The premise of your issue with the test is wrong. This test isn't supposed to push a vehicle beyond its limits. The moose test is supposed to be well within the limits of all SUVs. The other comparable SUVs tested cruised through the same test without a hiccup. The Heep has strange characteristics under cornering. If you look closely even in the first corner it's lifted an inside tire off the ground. The Jeep stability systems never engaged - at all - during all of the runs in 2012 with 3 different vehicles. And the suspension spring and dampening rates were way off in favor of a soft ride but resulted in dangerous handling.

Jeep obviously was embarrassed by this and redesigned its system. It works better now. It was poor engineering and/or poor quality components. Typical jeep. But in Jeep's credit - they did finally get it right a few years later.
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8Fs5M8GuvcU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>