4WD mode has lots of drag... issues?

[jeremyc74]

Nah dude. It's 4WD not AWD. If you are right and it is somehow OK then why does Toyota, specifically the user manual say not to do it?

Uneven tires? Like oval shaped? That just doesn't sound right at all.

But that aside, as linked above, it is easy to see why you don't want to have transfer case binding.

Personally I think the negatives of driving with it engaged while on pavement FAR OUTWEIGH any negatives from going several months without engaging the 4WD at all. The system will be fine.

My truck has gone months and years without engaging the 4WD, in fact I don't think it was ever engaged once until I bought it from the first owner back at 65k miles in 2003.

Unevenly WORN dude. As in the diameter of the rear tires is smaller than the front because they haven't been rotated properly. The transfer case isn't binding if the tires are the same diameter.

I'm not suggesting a person drive around in 4WD all the time, what I'm saying is that you're not going to damage the system if you do it from time to time, as in forgetting to take it out after a snow melt, or something like that.

 

[JB.]

[MENTION=2798]JB.[/MENTION]

I read your thread, very detailed and much appreciated!

What I don't get is what is your position (relatively for or against) on whether or not you recommend people avoid driving on pavement with 4WD engaged.

And if you think it is irrelevant (eg doesn't cause harm) then I would ask: Do you think Transfer Case Binding is a serious risk?

Personally I don't think that driving around for a few minutes on pavement with 4WD on will break anything but doing it for hours, days, weeks? Well I just think that may damage things, or at a minimum the risk is legit. I know this has been debated a lot of ways so I'm not trying to start a huge flame discussion .... I'm just a bit :suspicious:

My position is - use locked 4wd if you need it. That could be re-phrased as - avoid it unless you need it - which seems to carry a more cautionary tone.

Either way, the above pretty much covers everything; except that people often think they need 4wd when they really don't.

One problem is that 4wd on dry pavement is not well analyzed by being considered one thing. Going straight is different from a mild turn, is different from a medium turn, is different from a sharp turn. Moving is different from being stopped.

Specifically, though, I do recommend people not let dry pavement get in the way of following the owners manual recommendation for exercising the 4wd system. That's a real world situation that comes up a lot and can leave many scratching their heads. It would be nice, though, if people had an idea of the spectrum of stress levels involved. Exercising the 4wd system once a month by doing parking lot donuts would no doubt cross the line into doing more harm than good.

I don't recommend driving for hours, days, or weeks in 4wd on dry pavement but that should never happen under the simple rule -- use it if you need it.

As for TC binding, I'd say the binding that takes place on dry pavement, outside of the extremes, isn't more severe than what is experienced off-road at places like Moab.

 

[JayRolla]

Unevenly WORN dude. As in the diameter of the rear tires is smaller than the front because they haven't been rotated properly. The transfer case isn't binding if the tires are the same diameter.

I'm not suggesting a person drive around in 4WD all the time, what I'm saying is that you're not going to damage the system if you do it from time to time, as in forgetting to take it out after a snow melt, or something like that.

My wifes 1999 Ford Expedition is always in AWD. She also has a hi and lo range. With same recommendation to not use on the dry pavement per Ford in hi or lo. She activated the Hi 4wd and drove it to work for about a month like that. She lived about 40 mile round trip from work. She had brand new tires at perfect tire pressure. Her transfer case failed in about a month period. Ford told her it was due too xfer case binding when turning on dry pavement when she left it in hi range.

You are correct as long as you dont turn the vehicle. If you could magically be driving in a straight line all the time then yes your xfer case will be fine. But thats not realistic and we all have to turn. Which causes binding when in 4wd hi or low on dry pavement.

 

[nevada]

As for TC binding, I'd say the binding that takes place on dry pavement, outside of the extremes, isn't more severe than what is experienced off-road at places like Moab.

people always seem to end up using that example for this discussion.
but, pavement has MUCH more traction that slick rock, or pretty much any other NATURAL off road surface.

 

[JayRolla]

people always seem to end up using that example for this discussion.
but, pavement has MUCH more traction that slick rock, or pretty much any other NATURAL off road surface.

Not to mention your crawling at low speeds, which yes it can cause binding up even on slick rock.

The entire point of this is long periods of driving on pavement will cause wear and tear.

 

[gamefreakgc]

My wifes 1999 Ford Expedition is always in AWD. She also has a hi and lo range. With same recommendation to not use on the dry pavement per Ford in hi or lo. She activated the Hi 4wd and drove it to work for about a month like that. She lived about 40 mile round trip from work. She had brand new tires at perfect tire pressure. Her transfer case failed in about a month period. Ford told her it was due too xfer case binding when turning on dry pavement when she left it in hi range.

You are correct as long as you dont turn the vehicle. If you could magically be driving in a straight line all the time then yes your xfer case will be fine. But thats not realistic and we all have to turn. Which causes binding when in 4wd hi or low on dry pavement.

You know you just compared a Ford's reliability to a Toyota, right?

In all seriousness, everyone has this about right. It's bad to use 4wd on pavement, but using it once or twice to keep parts moving and lubricated is not going to ruin anything. Not ideal (I still have the "warning pamphlet" in my truck) but not going to cause anything fail. I had to do it for a time with my 24 year old Pickup with 275k+ miles all stock and it didn't hurt it a bit. I think we'll all be ok.

 

[JayRolla]

You know you just compared a Ford's reliability to a Toyota, right?

In all seriousness, everyone has this about right. It's bad to use 4wd on pavement, but using it once or twice to keep parts moving and lubricated is not going to ruin anything. Not ideal (I still have the "warning pamphlet" in my truck) but not going to cause anything fail. I had to do it for a time with my 24 year old Pickup with 275k+ miles all stock and it didn't hurt it a bit. I think we'll all be ok.

No i didnt compare reliability. I didnt anywhere in my post state that. I stated that the xfer case failed from using it in 4wd hi. The thing lasted 100k miles before that and has lasted another 100k miles since replacing it.

 

[JB.]

people always seem to end up using that example for this discussion.
but, pavement has MUCH more traction that slick rock..

Hard to say how much but I'll concede more.

I'll still take a 1/2 steering wheel revolution, moving turn on pavement over a full-lock turn on a smooth, level piece of slick rock.

 

[KidVermicious]

Personally I don't think that driving around for a few minutes on pavement with 4WD on will break anything but doing it for hours, days, weeks?

Obviously that's not a good idea. The very best that would happen is you'd kill your MPGs and scrub all the tread off your tires. The worst that would happen is you wouldn't scrub all the tread off your tires, and something in the drivetrain would wear way too fast and break on you. But if something in your drivetrain breaks because you tested 4WD on the pavement, or because you forgot to take it out of 4WD after the last snowstorm, then that something was ready to go anyway.

Part time 4WD should be avoided on pavement that isn't icy, but it's not the end of the world if it happens.

 

[jeremyc74]

people always seem to end up using that example for this discussion.
but, pavement has MUCH more traction that slick rock, or pretty much any other NATURAL off road surface.

You misquoted that.

 

[jeremyc74]

My wifes 1999 Ford Expedition is always in AWD. She also has a hi and lo range. With same recommendation to not use on the dry pavement per Ford in hi or lo. She activated the Hi 4wd and drove it to work for about a month like that. She lived about 40 mile round trip from work. She had brand new tires at perfect tire pressure. Her transfer case failed in about a month period. Ford told her it was due too xfer case binding when turning on dry pavement when she left it in hi range.

You are correct as long as you dont turn the vehicle. If you could magically be driving in a straight line all the time then yes your xfer case will be fine. But thats not realistic and we all have to turn. Which causes binding when in 4wd hi or low on dry pavement.

And the binding corrects itself as the tires slip, which happens even on dry pavement.

Moral of the story..... don't buy a ****ing Ford.

As I said earlier (and you continue to ignore) I'm not suggesting people drive around with their vehicles in 4WD all the time. What I'm saying is that doing it from time to time isn't going to result in some catastrophic failure as you stated earlier. I've been driving 4WD vehicles for 25 years, and have done all kinds of stupid shit to them and have NEVER had a transfer case fail. I've had Jeeps with tires so mismatched that you had to drive in reverse to get them out of 4WD and never had one fail.

As a matter of fact, if you're so adamant about it, point us to an example of someone who's had it happen to them. These trucks are 15 years old at this point and most of them have 150k+ miles. There should be dozens of internet stories about it if it's really as bad as what you're saying.

 

[Unner]

I'm glad I've got multi mode on my 01. I can run in AWD on pavement, and then lock the center diff to make it true 4WD when I want to.

 

[BrianSD_42]

This is really a circular argument.

I will continue to tell people not to drive "for a sustained period" with 4WD engaged while on street pavement because it is a common mistake that 4WD noobs make and it is important to mention.

The binding issue is not related to Toyota or Ford or Jeep. It is all part-time 4WD vehicles. Don't think somehow that Toyota is except from binding issues.

 

[JB.]

I will continue to tell people not to drive "for a sustained period" with 4WD engaged while on street pavement because it is a common mistake that 4WD noobs make and it is important to mention.

That's interesting.

If you've ever talked to someone like this, I'd be interested in hearing the reason given for it.

 

[gamefreakgc]

No i didnt compare reliability. I didnt anywhere in my post state that. I stated that the xfer case failed from using it in 4wd hi. The thing lasted 100k miles before that and has lasted another 100k miles since replacing it.

Sarcasm is sometimes lost on a forum. Not knocking you or nothing, was just trying to make light of the situation. Maybe I'll try those smiles or something :bowl:

 

[BrianSD_42]

That's interesting.

If you've ever talked to someone like this, I'd be interested in hearing the reason given for it.

Sorry but what is it? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[JB.]

Sorry but what is it? I'm not sure what you mean.

If you know, I'm curious what reason such people typically give for leaving the truck in 4wd for extended periods.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I'm not sure. People do weird things.

I think one reason is to lube up the gears but perhaps they just think it doesn't matter.

 

[nevada]

You misquoted that.

sorry, not sure how that happened. fixed now, thanks.

And the binding corrects itself as the tires slip, which happens even on dry pavement.

Moral of the story..... don't buy a ****ing Ford.

As I said earlier (and you continue to ignore) I'm not suggesting people drive around with their vehicles in 4WD all the time. What I'm saying is that doing it from time to time isn't going to result in some catastrophic failure as you stated earlier. I've been driving 4WD vehicles for 25 years, and have done all kinds of stupid shit to them and have NEVER had a transfer case fail. I've had Jeeps with tires so mismatched that you had to drive in reverse to get them out of 4WD and never had one fail.

As a matter of fact, if you're so adamant about it, point us to an example of someone who's had it happen to them. These trucks are 15 years old at this point and most of them have 150k+ miles. There should be dozens of internet stories about it if it's really as bad as what you're saying.

I have seen more than a few. some were due to the drivers choice, others were due to equipment failure, keeping the 4wd locked in regardless of selector position.

This is really a circular argument.

I will continue to tell people not to drive "for a sustained period" with 4WD engaged while on street pavement because it is a common mistake that 4WD noobs make and it is important to mention.

The binding issue is not related to Toyota or Ford or Jeep. It is all part-time 4WD vehicles. Don't think somehow that Toyota is except from binding issues.

agreed.

If you know, I'm curious what reason such people typically give for leaving the truck in 4wd for extended periods.

a lot of it is simply ignorance. they just don't KNOW what they are supposed to do. and have the time I don't blame them. anymore, there are so many different types of 4wd systems.

I'm not sure. People do weird things.

I think one reason is to lube up the gears but perhaps they just think it doesn't matter.

"don't know, don't care"

 

[RinoRomp]

Ok,

A few of you figured it out. :thumb: Can't believe I didn't think of it...

So, while driving around I saw a nice little field to test out the 4wd.. it was a little damp, 4wd worked a HECK of a lot better. There was far less noise and drag for sure.

So obviously the binding is from pavement right?

Checking tire sizes...... WE HAVE A MISSMATCH. 31x10.5 and 30x9.5.

Thanks jeremyc74, JB. and the rest of you... Consider this solved! :banana:

Now for the pulsating vibration I get at 60+mph from the back end (in 2WD of course).... hrm. Back are the smaller tires with little tread left anyways, time to replace em with 31x10.5 and see if that fixes it.