Lester Lugnut
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The Title pretty much says it all.
Thanks for your time.
Thanks for your time.
5th Gen CAN Protocol - 11 bit or 29 bit
- Thread starter Lester Lugnut
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SouthernSS
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What are you going to do with that?? You trying to do a stand alone ecu?
Lester Lugnut
New member
Ultra Gauge has recently come out with a new product called Ultra Gauge MX 1.3
This new gauge has preloaded PIDs for 2005+ Tacoma/Tundra. Two of them are for transmission fluid temp - both Celsius and Fahrenheit.
My 2015 Tacoma has an A750E transmission. My wife's 2014 4 Runner has the same transmission as per the label inside the door frame.
It's possible this new gauge could accurately read TFT in a 2014 4 Runner. If not, you would need to queue up with their support group and work with them on a PID(s) for the 2014 4 Runner.
In their trouble ticket form, they ask for protocol used by your vehicle.
11 bit CAN and 29 bit CAN were 2 on the list that you could select.
I am aware of ScanGauge and its ability to pull TFT and the Torque APP/ELM 327 approach. The latter in my opinion is OK if you are merely interested in TFT for a fluid change, but is not practical for day to day driving.
This new gauge has preloaded PIDs for 2005+ Tacoma/Tundra. Two of them are for transmission fluid temp - both Celsius and Fahrenheit.
My 2015 Tacoma has an A750E transmission. My wife's 2014 4 Runner has the same transmission as per the label inside the door frame.
It's possible this new gauge could accurately read TFT in a 2014 4 Runner. If not, you would need to queue up with their support group and work with them on a PID(s) for the 2014 4 Runner.
In their trouble ticket form, they ask for protocol used by your vehicle.
11 bit CAN and 29 bit CAN were 2 on the list that you could select.
I am aware of ScanGauge and its ability to pull TFT and the Torque APP/ELM 327 approach. The latter in my opinion is OK if you are merely interested in TFT for a fluid change, but is not practical for day to day driving.
SouthernSS
New member
Why so curious about trans temps? You plan on pulling 5k+ lbs across the country?
Sorry, I dont know the answer though. I had some experience with the can/bean system in my IS350 but that was a while ago.
Sorry, I dont know the answer though. I had some experience with the can/bean system in my IS350 but that was a while ago.
Lester Lugnut
New member
Maybe I'll get lucky and hear from BlackWorksInc
11 bit. More specifically ISO 15765-4 CAN, 11 bit 500k baud
PID changed in 2010. So what works for the 2005-2009 won't work for our 5th Gen 4Runners. The PIDs and equations are known, so it shouldn't be hard for them to make it available.
If they add the ability to manually input more PIDs, it might actually be worth buying!
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Lester Lugnut
New member
For the 05+ Tacoma/Tundra they have 8 preprogrammed PIDs that are mfg. specific. The original ScanGauge used a feature called X gauge to manually input the transmission fluid temp(TFT) PIDs. I suspect they've incorporated that logic into the newer UltraGauge MX 1.3 A member on a Tacoma forum was working intently with them on this using the newer UltraGauge MX 1.3, so I have to believe he could input new PIDs on demand.
Your comment about PID change in 2010 concerns me as they advertise this for 2005+ Tacoma/Tundra. Apparently they're able to query the CAN for it's gen level; then BRANCH to that levels logic.
I'll queue up with them for further clarification on the PID change in 2010 and how they're able to distinguish between the two.
Thanks for your input.
Pre 2009 4Runners and Tacomas use a different protocol (9141, I think). So, any PIDs advertised for a 2005+ Tacoma won't work on a 2010+ 4Runner.
This will probably help them out:
Name: Transmission Temp (pan) PID : 2182: Equation: ((((A * 256) + B ) * (7/100)-400)/10) Min Value: -40 Max Value: 325 Units: F Header: 7E0
Name: Transmission Temp (converter) PID : 2182: Equation: ((((C * 256) + D ) * (7/100)-400)/10) Min Value: -40 Max Value: 325 Units: F Header: 7E0
Not 100% sure on the header. If 7E0 doesn't work, leave it blank and it should return a number. Header = ECU. Each ECU has a different memory location. I've found 7B0, 7B2, 7B6, 7C0, 7C2, 7C4, 7C6, 7D0, and 7E0 all return PIDS on our 2014 4Runner Limited, although I haven't figured them out yet.
There are several more non-standard PIDs that work on our 4Runners, although transmission temp is the only one I think people really want. PM me or keep it up here and I'll help to get them added to the MX 1.3.
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BlackWorksInc
New member
I looked on TIS and they don't even bother to mention which ISO CAN protocol their using (they just list it as "ISO CAN Standard"), but they do list the system as 500k baud. The reality is that the majority of Toyota's factory network protocols are CAN and Multiplex now (with LIN being used for things like Infotainment.)
Now honestly I have never bothered to learn the OS structure of the CAN too much from a software standpoint so I couldn't tell you if it is 11bit or 29bit... but searching around on the internet seems to show that both an 11bit & 29bit version of ISO 15765-4 CAN in the 500k baud flavor exist. (Found the information here: OBD2 protocols ) Which makes things a bit more confusing for me as they don't even specify why ISO 15765-4 CAN 500k baud "11bit" is different than ISO 15765-4 CAN 500k "29bit."
Since CAN was mandated to be implemented on all vehicles BY 2008, that does not entirely mean that older Toyotas are not using CAN. It just means that it was up to Toyota's discretion whether or not to use a CAN system for the OBDII prior to that date. According to the 2015 4Runner diagrams, the vehicle is mainly wired through CAN for all the modules; where as in 2005 the 4Runner had only the ECM, ABS, and SRS tied into seperate CAN network than everything else that was on a Multiplex system. So in terms of the 4Runner, it seems that they have been using a 500k baud CAN set-up since the induction of the 4th gen. This isn't too surprising as Toyota was one of the first manufacturers to adopt the OBDII standard on some of their vehicles BEFORE the 1996 mandate. The issue is I couldn't tell you what ISO CAN protocol either the 2005 or the 2015 use, I can only infer that the ISO CAN protocol is ISO 15765-4 CAN 500k baud because that is an OBDII standard requirement. I assume the Toyota side uses a slightly different protocol otherwise you'd be able to do everything a TIS Techstream does with a generic ODII tool.
I'm siding with [MENTION=90026]JeremyB[/MENTION] here that its most likely an 11bit protocol because he seems to have a source for the information that I am not finding via TIS's database and I have never actually looked into the software aspect of CAN beyond understanding how it works and diagnostics; never anything regarding software or OS structure.
Lester Lugnut
New member
For you the URL below may not tell you more than you know. Thought I'd post anyway for others.
Look at page 4 - figure 7. 11 bit - 29 bit layout. It may give some hint as to the difference.
The 11 bit has an 11 bit identifier; the 29 bit is actually an 11 bit identifier combined with an 18 bit identifier.
http://www.dgtech.com/images/primer.pdf
BlackWorksInc
New member
"A CAN message can be Standard with a 11 bit identifier or
Extended with a 29 bit identifier. The identifier is used to
provide unique frames for use in the system."
Extended with a 29 bit identifier. The identifier is used to
provide unique frames for use in the system."
Interesting, so I am going to assume that Toyota is saying that the ISO CAN "Standard" listed in their documentation on TIS is referring to the 11bit "Standard" Can.
That was an interesting read, I will bookmark it for myself; thanks!
Lester Lugnut
New member
Now I'm hearing that the Ultra Gauge support group got trans mission fluid temps to work on a 2012 Tacoma. That would be a 2010+ model. Another person reported issues with a 2015 Tacoma using this new Ultra Gauge out of the box. He worked with them and applied a parm patch and now has transmission fluid temps on his gauge.
I would have to wonder if the readings are accurate. I wouldn't trust it until the readings from UG matched Techstream.
I'll pass on the Ultra Gauge for now. Maybe later.
This is supposedly what UG provided a 2015 Tacoma owner to get transmission fluid temp(TFT):
TDATA: 07E02182
MTCH: 6182
RPOS: 2808
RCTRL:21
TCTRL:92
X: 0009
/: 0005
+: FFD8
Output format: 00
Left/Right is 31
I would have to wonder if the readings are accurate. I wouldn't trust it until the readings from UG matched Techstream.
I'll pass on the Ultra Gauge for now. Maybe later.
This is supposedly what UG provided a 2015 Tacoma owner to get transmission fluid temp(TFT):
TDATA: 07E02182
MTCH: 6182
RPOS: 2808
RCTRL:21
TCTRL:92
X: 0009
/: 0005
+: FFD8
Output format: 00
Left/Right is 31
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BlackWorksInc
New member
I would assume the issue is related to packet transmission, it seems that even though information is transmitted in 11bit or 29bit blocks. That data is not strictly Generic OBDII data or Toyota Specific data; in fact multiple sections of information can be encoded within those blocks which means that translating a string of blocks can be tricky.
At least that was what I found from some other websites, they may have played around with how transmission temperature is sent/received/decoded in those blocks across the years (or a newer ECM flash skewed locations of data from other years) so that the ScanGauge did not work correctly. This is most likely due to the fact that the ScanGauge is getting most of its data from the OBDII CAN Bus and not from the Toyota side of the vehicle (OBDII regulations are very strict on what and how data is handled; but anything beyond those limits is up to the manufacturer to make available on OBDII and then on the "factory" side they can do it how ever the hell they feel like.)
