98 4x4 bent frame sanity check.

[mckennar]

As the title says, I have a '98 4Runner that my drunk brother in law ran into a ditch at ~35. Bags blew but radiator and condenser are still intact. Driver's UCA impacted wheel well, wheel arch crumpled slightly internally (see pic).

Driver's side wheel pushed about 3/4" aft (replaced UCA/LCA/knuckle, no change), driver's frame horn about 1" up (vs. passenger frame horn), all body-to-frame bolts bent, core support bent but not terminally.

Visually, I can't find where on the frame it's bent. There isn't any paint flaking or visible bends or rips in the metal of the frame. So I stuck jack stands under driver/passenger front seats (ok not directly, but right where the frame flattens out under the firewall) to do the above measurements. Rest of truck is level when the front is on jack stands, so that tells me the tweak is fore of the firewall.

All doors open and close fine, shut lines are fine, even fenders are fine (removed d-side for pics). Hood closes straight (it's popped in the pics). You can definitely tell it's swayed from the front-on shot, though.

Anyway, the thing runs and drives so I drove it onto a trailer and took it to a frame shop about a mile away. After much gnashing of teeth, they said "not enough money in the world" to make the car safe for the road again.

Is that even a thing? Far be it from me, some amateur hack, to second guess a dude with a laser frame machine and 30 years of experience, but I have a hard time believing the frame can't be pulled. Anyone have any thoughts?

Oh and no insurance payout on this because all I had was liability on the truck. Brother in law is now deployed (wreck happened last August), he has more pressing issues to worry about.

 

[IsaiahC]

The crossmember is way bent up which means the whole end of the frame is squished. You could do a frame swap but it sounds as though your body mounts are trashed too. Might just have to part it out or scrap it. Your brother-in-law is responsible to pay damages but if he isn't willing to pay and you're not willing to go after him for it, then you're SOL

Source: Took a couple law classes in college

 

[mckennar]

That crossmember was bent due to the force of the impact. Here's another picture.

Perhaps that "pinched" the frame horns together. Body shop didn't mention it (disclosure: they didn't mention *anything* except that 'it's too far off to fix')

Ref: the brother in law - once he's done not being in Syria (and definitely not in Iraq, either), I'll let him know he *is* on the hook for wrecking my used car. lol.

Until then, just wanted a sanity check that a frame can be "too bent" to be fixed.

EDIT: both drivers side tires are flat in this picture.

 

[Cree]

Anything can be pulled straight. How much you wanna spend? Get a second opinion. Probably gonna be more than a new 4Runner would cost you though. You could always find one with a dead drive train and do a swap.

 

[mckennar]

I've been looking for a dead-drivetrain, rust free 4x4 3rd gen since August of last year when this wreck happened. I literally gave up after this thing sat in my yard for 9 months and hauled it to a body shop because I haven't had any luck. I figured anything less than $6k of frame work I'd be breaking even, as that's what running 4x4 3rd gens are going for around here.

You're quasi-local (Kansas). How's the rust situation up there? It seems like any trucks I look at north of the Arkansas/Missouri state line are rust buckets at 150k miles.

 

[seank]

I don't know what you like to do with your truck, so this may not appeal to you, but...

A lot of people who Solid Axle Swap their 3rd gen t4r or first gen Tacoma simply hack the front of the frame off from about the firewall and fab up a new and stronger front. It saves a lot of time and provides better clearance.

I'm guessing this is not something you are interested in doing, but maybe you could find someone who is and make a deal that would net you more than a wrecking yard.

What ever you do, good luck!

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

 

[IBallEngineer]

I have some thoughts, but I know it won't be what others want to hear. I only have a 35 year history in the body shop industry, 14 years as a shop owner, so I'm not an expert.

I'd totally fix that!

If I still owned my shop and you brought that to me to pull, it wouldn't be end of the world expensive, but it wouldn't be cheap.

2 hours of set up at frame labor rate. Was $55 when I sold my shop 3 years ago.

2 hours for sway
2 hours for twist
3 hours at Body labor rate to replace that cross member, plus parts.
1 hour for clean up and painting.

5 or 6 hundred dollars. Now the core support is looking rough too, that is another story, and more money.
:brushteeth:

Of course I don't know if it has mash or buckle, your pictures don't show that.

 

[T4R2014]

Lmao. Make the a-hole brother in law pay for what he effed up, whether it has to be a full front-end rebuild or the full value of an equivalent truck.

 

[mckennar]

Thanks for the insight. People here are avoiding it like the plague for some reason.

Question for IBallEngineer- knowing what you know say you pulled it, and it was again involved in a wreck, would it be as safe as before it was originally tweaked? The shops around here keep throwing "safety" around and refuse to touch the truck.

 

[jeremyc74]

Thanks for the insight. People here are avoiding it like the plague for some reason.

The shops around here keep throwing "safety" around and refuse to touch the truck.

It's impossible to offer a solid opinion on frame damage from a couple of pictures on the internet. The shops who have seen it in person don't want to touch it because it's more trouble than it's worth. They know there's a good chance it's going to have issues down the road no matter how much they try to make it right, and they don't want you coming back to them in a year saying it's wearing tires funny, or pulling. It's just not worth the hassle for them.

You may find someone who's having a slow week that will take it on, but it'll likely never be right. As much as you don't want to hear it, that truck is totaled. I'd part it out and cut my losses. :yield:

 

[IBallEngineer]

Thanks for the insight. People here are avoiding it like the plague for some reason.

Question for IBallEngineer- knowing what you know say you pulled it, and it was again involved in a wreck, would it be as safe as before it was originally tweaked? The shops around here keep throwing "safety" around and refuse to touch the truck.

Again, based on what I see in the pictures, there is no safety issue. The cross member should be replaced. Can any of these shops be specific about the issue or are they acting like you couldn't understand? I will emphasize to you, that the pictures don't show much, can you show the area right behind the control arms? That is an inherent week spot on all frames of this style. And if you have severe mash or buckle in this area it can be hard to repair.

Also, I only have my entire life in the industry and have repaired or been involved in repairs of FAR WORSE than what I see in your pictures. I never had a problem with tires wearing funny or pulling. Anyone who does simply does NOT know what they are doing.

How far are you from Conway?

 

[jeremyc74]

Also, I only have my entire life in the industry and have repaired or been involved in repairs of FAR WORSE than what I see in your pictures. I never had a problem with tires wearing funny or pulling. Anyone who does simply does NOT know what they are doing.

How far are you from Conway?

So in your expert opinion, these shops just don't want to make money?

 

[IBallEngineer]

Driver's side wheel pushed about 3/4" aft (replaced UCA/LCA/knuckle, no change), driver's frame horn about 1" up (vs. passenger frame horn), all body-to-frame bolts bent, core support bent but not terminally.

Visually, I can't find where on the frame it's bent. There isn't any paint flaking or visible bends or rips in the metal of the frame. So I stuck jack stands under driver/passenger front seats (ok not directly, but right where the frame flattens out under the firewall) to do the above measurements. Rest of truck is level when the front is on jack stands, so that tells me the tweak is fore of the firewall.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Two things about what you are saying here. When you say ALL body to frame bolts are bent do you mean ALL of them? If so the problem is or could be much worse than it looks. Also when you measure forward and back, compare to the other side and you can isolate the damaged area pretty easily. Also measure in an X pattern at different points, this will tell you have much sway there is.

I've never subscribed to the "never be the same again" BS. No you will no longer have the original finish and parts. But that doesn't mean it can't be repaired.

 

[MAD 69]

Salvage what you can from this wreck and buy another one - make your brother in law pay - just because he is in the military he gets a pass?! Not in my book, I would have him send you money every week he gets paid - military people are still getting paid correct?

 

[IBallEngineer]

So in your expert opinion, these shops just don't want to make money?

Very little money to be made on a $600 frame repair. Most busy DRP shops won't touch little jobs like that because in the same footprint they can do a $2000 insurance job.

I am going against my own advice responding to your post, but I will leave it at that. I'll address the questions of the OP, not going to get in to another pissing contest with you. I already know you are an electrical engineer. If you don't agree with me, I'm ok with that. As I stated in my first response, I'm not an expert.

 

[mckennar]

It's impossible to offer a solid opinion on frame damage from a couple of pictures on the internet. The shops who have seen it in person don't want to touch it because it's more trouble than it's worth. They know there's a good chance it's going to have issues down the road no matter how much they try to make it right, and they don't want you coming back to them in a year saying it's wearing tires funny, or pulling. It's just not worth the hassle for them.

You may find someone who's having a slow week that will take it on, but it'll likely never be right. As much as you don't want to hear it, that truck is totaled. I'd part it out and cut my losses. :yield:

As far as my "people are avoiding it like the plague" remark - I just re-read it, and it sounds like I'm saying that people are avoiding insight like the plague here as on this forum. I meant people are avoiding working on my 4Runner like the plague. Sorry about that.

I understand, the pictures can't possibly show all of the damage. Primarily because I don't know where the damage is underneath (I pressure washed the frame and had it on a lift, visually I can't tell).

Man I wish I had time for a part out. We have a 13 month old, with another on the way and we're housing one of my Army buddies and his family because he and his wife both just lost their jobs.

I really don't have time to deal with shipping parts (and I especially don't have the time to deal with craigslist haha). I'll see if someone wants to buy the whole thing locally.

 

[mckennar]

Again, based on what I see in the pictures, there is no safety issue. The cross member should be replaced. Can any of these shops be specific about the issue or are they acting like you couldn't understand? I will emphasize to you, that the pictures don't show much, can you show the area right behind the control arms? That is an inherent week spot on all frames of this style. And if you have severe mash or buckle in this area it can be hard to repair.

Also, I only have my entire life in the industry and have repaired or been involved in repairs of FAR WORSE than what I see in your pictures. I never had a problem with tires wearing funny or pulling. Anyone who does simply does NOT know what they are doing.

How far are you from Conway?

The shop I took it to had to call someone in from a different shop to double check. The guy I spoke with from the shop said it wasn't bad, but spent 3 days trying to find the bend and couldn't. So he called another shop, transported the car there himself, put it on a laser straightener, and relayed what the technician at that shop told him, which was "not enough money in the world, it'll never be safe, the frame is too far gone". So yeah basically acting like I wouldn't understand.

The area behind the control arms doesn't *look* out of whack. If I took a picture of that, you'd see a normal looking frame.

I had to google mash and buckle, it doesn't appear to be buckled, but I can't tell re: mash.

Lastly, I'm about 3 - 4 hours from Conway.

 

[mckennar]

Two things about what you are saying here. When you say ALL body to frame bolts are bent do you mean ALL of them? If so the problem is or could be much worse than it looks. Also when you measure forward and back, compare to the other side and you can isolate the damaged area pretty easily. Also measure in an X pattern at different points, this will tell you have much sway there is.

I've never subscribed to the "never be the same again" BS. No you will no longer have the original finish and parts. But that doesn't mean it can't be repaired.

Yessir, each and every one. The two forward-most are bent "back" from the impact, and each of the 8 (iirc) others are bent "forward" like the cab slid forward on the frame. I checked the floor where the bolts mount and there is minor deformation in the sheet metal where the bolts attach. I removed one bolt and hit the area with a rubber mallet to flatten it, but when I went to attach another (new/straight) bolt, the holes didn't line up by a good 1/4". If I angled the bolt head forward and the threaded-end aft (with the head-end being in the cab), it lines up.

Truck is at another shop right now awaiting a 3rd opinion, but the guy on the phone said "if the other shops said it can't be done, I'm not sure what you expect out of me".

So that brings me to this conclusion: even if it is "fixable" that's irrelevant when the only people with the means to fix it refuse to work on it.

I saw where you mentioned that there isn't much profit on a $600 frame job, they make their margin on parts and paint, of which there are none required. That was my conspiracy theory all along I just didn't want to say it.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Lastly, I'm about 3 - 4 hours from Conway.

I was hoping you were closer. I know a guy who works in and around Conway that helped develop the sonar frame measuring system I sell. I could still try to ask the local rep in your area for a reference, but I'm sure you could find someone if you can make the time.

 

[amalik]

1) Your brother in law is a bag of dicks for drinking and driving in a vehicle that isn't even his.

2) You seem like a nice guy. Give drunk brother-in-law keys to T4R, and also house Army buddy and his wife. I pray and hope good karma comes your way.