A question for the Engine guru's

S

SV_Dude

Moderator
So, with the help of FoG's Slave #1 and Slave #2, we got my 22re torn down.

Here's the proof of the blow-by. Each intake tube in the lower intake manifold had a pool of oil in it.

S6300823.jpg~original


Now here's where I need some input. The interesting thing that I found was that cylinders 1-3 all had good crosshatch marks like they were just machined.
S6300824.jpg~original


I would think that after 15k miles, the machine marks would have been gone and the cylinder walls would be smooth by now. Cylinder #4 was smooth. There's obviously something different going on between #1-3 cylinders and #4 cylinder. I am assuming that since I still have good cross hatch marks on the first 3 cylinders, the rings aren't seating very well against those cylinder walls and causing all of my blow-by.

What says the engine guru's?

I'll take the block and the assembled pistons to a machinist this week to know for sure and let him measure the cylinder walls.
 
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Show me the piston skirts and ill get you some explanation's.

Also pull your rings off and stick a ring at a time back in their cylinders, measure the gap with a feeler gauge.

The cross hatch is fine, its the rings and #4 you need to worry about.
 
GonOvr said:
Show me the piston skirts and ill get you some explanation's.

Also pull your rings off and stick a ring at a time back in their cylinders, measure the gap with a feeler gauge.

The cross hatch is fine, its the rings and #4 you need to worry about.
Click to expand...

What is the gap supposed to be while the ring is installed? I believe the FSM just has a gap measurement with the ring installed on the piston.

Why would the #4 cylinder be a concern over the others?

I'm a novice at best when it comes to building engines so feel free to dumb things down for me.
 
Because its normal to still have cross hatch after 15k. I lost 3 lobes on my 383 cam, the filings went all through the cylinders chewing up my piston skirts. Still had cross hatch except for one cylinder that rubbed through. Now to where the cylinder out in 15k, that means the rings were too tight or the cylinder was too small compared to the piston. Rings and piston got hot, expanded and when its not done right something has to give. So it starts wearing down the cylinder wall. Who ever did your engine previously didn't do you a favor.
 
there's your clue right there, the nice clean oil-washed edges around the pistons. Agreed with Nate... #4 should be like the rest.
 
ok those last pictures paint a different picture. Rings in 1,2,3 were setup inline or too loose.

You should have 3 rings compression(top ring), intermediate(second) and oil control(wavy, sometimes has top and bottom keeper rings). If these rings are lined up or setup loose. Oil will work its way to the compression side of the cylinder.

Take it to a good/reputable engine builder and have it mic'd out. The piston to cylinder clearance may be tighter on #4 but something is wrong with rings on 1,2,3
 
Compression Ring 0.0098-0.0185in. gap
Middle Ring 0.0236-0.0323in. gap
Oil Control Ring0.0079-0.0224in. gap

The ring should be set at 130mm from the top of the cylinder, Use the piston upside down to ensure the ring gets placed flat.
 
I tried to take pics of my piston skirts but my camera sucks and the batteries are dead. All of the pistons look the same, they all appear to be in good shape. There aren't any heat marks (rainbow or over heating colors) on the pistons and I can still see all of the lateral machining marks on all 4 pistons.
 
oh hey the rest of the pictures work... was it just me or did a few not work for you, Nate?

crosshatching is too narrow..... should be about 45* that looks like 30*. Looks like they just reamed the lip off and honed the cylinders. Probably just slapped new rings on it without checking gap. What was it you said they did to the engine when you bought it?

edit: chrome or cast rings? If they're chrome, that could explain some things if they only honed the cylinders.
 
GonOvr said:
ok those last pictures paint a different picture. Rings in 1,2,3 were setup inline or too loose.

You should have 3 rings compression(top ring), intermediate(second) and oil control(wavy, sometimes has top and bottom keeper rings). If these rings are lined up or setup loose. Oil will work its way to the compression side of the cylinder.

Take it to a good/reputable engine builder and have it mic'd out. The piston to cylinder clearance may be tighter on #4 but something is wrong with rings on 1,2,3
Click to expand...

So you think it's looking like I screwed up when installing the piston rings? The rings were definitely not inline so maybe I didn't gap them properly.

Do you know of any good machine shop in the springs area? I know you're familiar with this place so maybe you can refer me to a good shop?
 
mikebontoft said:
oh hey the rest of the pictures work... was it just me or did a few not work for you, Nate?

crosshatching is too narrow..... should be about 45* that looks like 30*. Looks like they just reamed the lip off and honed the cylinders. Probably just slapped new rings on it without checking gap. What was it you said they did to the engine when you bought it?

edit: chrome or cast rings? If they're chrome, that could explain some things if they only honed the cylinders.
Click to expand...

I assembled the engine. I had the previous machine shop bore it to .030 and deck the block .010. They are chrome rings from engnbldr's rebuild kit.
 
oh crap I remember this conversation..... some of it anyway. Sorry, I forgot you assembled it. As I recall, you followed the book and I think I asked you about the rings.
 
What kind of oil did you use? If you used synthetic right off the bat or swapped to synthetic too soon you cant seat the rings. I always use high zinc sae 20w-50 to break engines in.

Don't use chrome rings again, they are more for industrial applications, like something that will run 24/7/365.

I always use plasma moly file fit rings

Oh and no I don't know of any engine machinist over there. I never had engine work done while I was in the springs. I have a buddy I can call tomorrow. He has had a few 3.0l bored out and pumped up by someone over there.
 
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During the first 1500 miles I used regular cheap non-synthetic oil. I was wrong, the engnbldr rings are moly rings.

EPNR900 Ring set (moly) (std, .020, .030, .040 available)

I'll ask around at work tomorrow and see if anyone here knows of a good machine shop. If I screwed up on the piston ring install, hopefully they can just hone the cylinder walls and I can replace the rings. Worst case, the block gets bored to .040 over and I replace the pistons and rings.
 
so worst case scenario you get a little extra torque. not bad.

moly... chrome moly, same thing. They are harder. If the cylinder is a little out of round and otherwise just honed, cast rings will form better to the shape during break-in. I don't know how it's possible but perhaps they didn't bore it correctly. crosshatching can affect oil consumption as well. As I mentioned, it's too narrow. It could be holding a little more oil than it should be.

The rings can vibrate around a little bit too. During installation if you're not careful and in removal. I believe you mentioned that you clocked the rings correctly.
 
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