A vehicle without a trans dipstick??
- Thread starter BlacknTan
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Saker
Senior Member
I had the same reaction when I checked over my 2013 FJ TT.
Maybe [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] can comment from a Tech viewpoint...
Jetboy
New member
I changed my 1996 4runner transmission fluid for the first time at 180,000 miles. Looked fine. Never had so much as a hiccup with it. Probably good for another 180,000 miles after the fluid replacement. If things have gotten better in the past 20 years, I'm perfectly happy never changing it.
nb rob
New member
Fluid can still be changed. It is a solid closed system though.
Lots of good links and info here:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/maint...ission-fluid-servicing-sealed-non-sealed.html
It's an old sticky, but relevant
Lots of good links and info here:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/maint...ission-fluid-servicing-sealed-non-sealed.html
It's an old sticky, but relevant
BlacknTan
New member
I guess, like the guvmint, Toyota thinks we're all pretty stupid! Not smart enough to take care of ourselves or control our own lives ... I guess I find that attitude a little more than insulting .. especially since my dear old Dad taught this boy to think for himself without outsiders sticking their nose into my affairs.
God save me from people who want to save me from myself!
Thanks to all for their thoughts. Sorry, but this attitude rubs my fur the wrong way!
BlackWorksInc
New member
Well the reality is that there's a couple reasons [they] (most if not all manufacturers these days have one or more "sealed transmissions") went to this type of system.
-Because Most Customers and Mechanics were putting the wrong fluid in the vehicles and ruining transmissions (this is something that happened a LOT before sealed transmissions, people either knowingly/unknowingly ignored the proper ATF specification and used a non-approved fluid that ruined the transmission)
-Reduce maintenance costs (well apparent ones really to make the vehicles look better on paper, they say the fluid is "lifetime" but that in my opinion that is false without hard scientific evidence to back it up; unless their definition of "lifetime" is 100k; WS ATF is more or less a "Long Life Fluid" in my experience.)
-To more accurately control variables such as fluid level (there is a complicated process to check the fluid level that requires a scantool capable of reading the Toyota Transmission Fluid PID, supposedly this complicated method provides a more accurate fluid level; on a side note- I have seen these transmissions be finicky by being over/under filled by as little as a 1/4 of a quart)
-To require you to go to the dealership for service (though Toyota touts it as a "lifetime fluid" the Owner's Manual is quite clear it isn't when you start looking under "severe duty" driving conditions and adding logic to the mix. But as Toyota made the fluid check procedure so complicated, many shops will just refer you to the dealership because they don't want to deal with it.)
I'm sure there's other reasons out there, but those are really the big ones that stand out to me. Most manufacturers seem to be moving towards making their vehicles as difficult to work on as possible, not to mention they're in the business of selling cars; if it's too reliable they can't sell you a new one. Least that's my conspiracy theory... :tinfoil3:
1engineer
Moderator
Hey I feel the same way. I am responsible and can make decisions for myself and can take care of myself and those around me. With that said from an engineering standpoint most end users are just not going to do the maintenance on the right schedule or do it properly. Case in point: How many guys on this board decide to not go by the maintenance schedule because they know better than the Toyota engineers? I'm quite sure that comment will pi$$ of a bunch of them but I'm not politically correct nor do I mince words. No these are guys that are probably better than 80% of the people out there and they won't even follow a simple schedule!
I feel the same way as you about the government and all their meddling and intrusiveness they feel is needed to protect people from themselves. With that said my above post was not about that. The truth is most people don't want to do their maintenance and the ones who try it mess it up more often than not. We see it in our industry all the time. They want the reliability and durability so the engineers give the end users what they want.
Danimal
New member
Aaanyway, government theories aside, this seems like a logical step forward to me. Automatic transmissions from the reputable suppliers (Aisin, in this example) and applied correctly by the right integrator (Toyota, in this example) are pretty darn close to a service-free lifetime component. Failure rates on these vehicles are extremely low for anything inside of 200,000mi - regardless of service practice. That's a long ways from the days of <100,000mi transmissions where fluid changes and level checks were absolutely critical. Automatic transmissions (in the case of a majority of Toyotas) have been pretty reliable for the last 15-20 years, and don't need anyone messing with the fluid level in the time period the 99% of the people on this board will own their 4Runner.
With that's said; as a former transmission mechanic, and a mechanical engineer in the automotive industry; it feels weird opening the hood and not having a transmission dipstick to check. That got me the other day prepping for a trip.
Dan
With that's said; as a former transmission mechanic, and a mechanical engineer in the automotive industry; it feels weird opening the hood and not having a transmission dipstick to check. That got me the other day prepping for a trip.
Dan
Bevo
New member
The last five vehicles I purchased have had sealed auto transmissions(Tundra, Tacoma, FJ, Camaro SS, and now my 4Runner). I never experienced a single transmission related issue with any of them, and I drove the Camaro hard.
I guess it would make a fluid change easier, but that is really the only reason I can see the need for it. It is not like motor oil that could be burned by the engine. If you are losing fluid from the tranny you should notice it without having to check a dipstick.
I guess it would make a fluid change easier, but that is really the only reason I can see the need for it. It is not like motor oil that could be burned by the engine. If you are losing fluid from the tranny you should notice it without having to check a dipstick.
I digress :dizzy:
LittleCaesar
New member
I am on the same page as Blackworks and will add that the bean counters also probably had some input in not having a dipstick with the transmission (got to save costs somehow).
As a 3rd gen owner I do like having a dipstick but if one gets the fluid correct the first time, there is no reason to keep checking it. Both my sis and cousin have 2013 sr5s and I have recommended to both that they get their ATF changed out no later than 75,000 miles. Considering both love the idea of not having to change the oil until every 10,000 miles, my advice may have fallen on deaf ears.:sobbing:
Danimal
New member
Based on what? If you're basing that on a forum post, don't bother referencing it. If you're advising them to take it to any place other than a dealer, it's pointless, and risky. If it's a dealer, it's pointless and only slightly less risky.
Sorry to be so pointed, but too many people in my line of work base their maintenance decisions on voodoo, or something of the like, rather than millions of dollars of research and 60+ years of manufacturer experience.
Dan
4R Play
New member
Huh. I didn't know there wasn't a dipstick either. Haven't looked yet - but I would've.
I like the idea that there isn't one. It sounds like a step forward - less maintenance. Kinda like having a sealed bearing vs one that needs regular greasing. Less work to look after, and likely less to go wrong. My third Gen had the dipstick tube disconnect last year and it pissed out all the fluid.
I like the idea that there isn't one. It sounds like a step forward - less maintenance. Kinda like having a sealed bearing vs one that needs regular greasing. Less work to look after, and likely less to go wrong. My third Gen had the dipstick tube disconnect last year and it pissed out all the fluid.
FrontRange4Runner
New member
Keep in mind that Toyota has been running this transmission in vehicles for a long time (starting with the 100 LC) and it is about as reliable as auto transmissions come. Toyota knows what they are doing. I see no need for people to be checking my transmission fluid, so they can try to sell me on some pointless flush and introducing contaminates at the same time (or possibly just forgetting to put it back all together). When I look at the list of vehicles that this transmission is used in, how those vehicles are used and the overall failure rate, its really an amazing piece of equipment dipstick or not.
BlackWorksInc
New member
I don't disagree with you there... But look at the owner's manual for some confusion. They state under the maintenance guide that under "driving while towing, using a car-top carrier, or heavy vehicle loading" requires an ATF service every 60k. Yet no where in the maintenance guide does the fluid need to be changed under normal driving conditions, even past 120k. I just find that difficult to believe without any hard scientific evidence. ATF is one of the hardest working fluids in the vehicle and to say that it is "lifetime" is something I have a hard time believing when something as relatively simple as engine oil has a finite lifespan. Also from many vehicles we have seen come through, the 100k mark under normal driving seems to show some vehicles developing some shifting/transmission anomalies that are seemingly cured by a good ATF service with fresh WS fluid, which is where the "unofficial" recommendation of 100k under normal driving comes from.
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ben550
New member
On average, car owners in the US are holding onto their rides for 93 months or 7.75 years. Averaging 12,000 miles a year for 7.75 years would put someone at 93,000 miles. By these statistics, what Toyota claims about its transmission fluid is somewhat true. The sealed transmission has "lifetime" fluid which should be serviced at 100,000 miles... which is past the mileage the original owner will make it to owning that vehicle for 7.75 years. Aka for the lifetime they own that vehicle, they won't need to worry about servicing the transmission. Durable, reliable and maintenance free for 7.75 years.
Cars are engineered for the people who buy them new. Not for those of us who are the second, third, or fourth owners...
Cars are engineered for the people who buy them new. Not for those of us who are the second, third, or fourth owners...
