Aftermarket caliper upgrade interest

[RPS13]

This is not a commercial sales post, but rather a post gauging interest on a solution for the caliper problems these trucks seem to have.

Basically this would be using a Wilwood 4 piston or 6 piston caliper (they are interchangable) on a 5th gen stock front rotor. Wilwood calipers have stainless steel pistons and high temperature seals. They don't have dust boots, but by most accounts, dust boots only serve to trap damaging grit close to the o-rings over time. The stainless steel and anodized aluminum piston bores completely prevent corrosion which is what freezes pistons, and the only maintenance you need is to lightly clean the pistons before pressing them back in the bores during pad changes. These calipers are used on everything from Baja Trophy trucks to NASCAR stock cars and everything in between. I've personally used them for many years with no issues whatsoever, while stock Nissan calipers were continually freezing up on me (cheaper o-rings). I've never actually heard of anybody siezing up a Wilwood caliper because they do use materials that are 100% compatible in harsh conditions (i.e. there is nothing to rust and corrode together). Rebuild kits are available, cheap, and super easy to install.

I've made aftermarket brakes before for Nissans:

They work on track too :bigok: :

I'm projecting final cost would be somewhere in the $550-625 range with brand new 4 piston calipers with stainless steel pistons, pads, stainless steel lines, hardware, and aircraft grade aluminum caliper brackets that are hard anodized. It'll be everything you need to install the kit minus easily available brake rotors available anywhere for ~$70/pair. Generally I'd need at least 10 people interested to realistically cover machine setup time.

Replacement parts are readily available from either me, or any place that sells Wilwood parts. The calipers have a street price of roughly $165/ea, and the good news is that the pad shape is the most widely used pad shape in all of motorsports, so you can get any crazy pad you'd desire from aftermarket brake pad manufacturers. The pad cost is also the lowest per volume in the world for a given compound (bold claim, but the motorsports usage gives it a huge installed base).


If there's interest I'll inquire about a vendor account and start the measurement and design process up. I'm a Mechanical Engineer in my day job, and I'm well versed in mechanical design, manufacturing, and FEA. So whatever I design will be built to last and actually have some engineering behind it.


Thoughts? Interest?

 

[RPS13]

Sorry for the missing image... seems like Imageshack is having some issues. It's just a shot of the brake kit I manufactured on my Nissan. It uses 2 pc rotors and the same calipers I'd plan on using in this kit, so I have ample experience with them in real world applications.

 

[RPS13]

So not much interest? A little more money than replacement calipers that keep freezing up for a race-bred caliper that will essentially last a lifetime. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[futbolking]

I don't have issues with my brakes, but if this is a solution to a problem that a lot of people have (and I might too someday), I'm all for it.

 

[RPS13]

It's a displacement field output of a finite element analysis. Basically I make sure the brackets are going to have a long long life.


It doesn't look like there is too much interest here for a lifetime fix for the caliper issues, but it costs money to make these things and sell them, so unless there's a market I suppose it'll remain just a good idea.

 

[ebg18t]

It's a displacement field output of a finite element analysis. Basically I make sure the brackets are going to have a long long life.


It doesn't look like there is too much interest here for a lifetime fix for the caliper issues, but it costs money to make these things and sell them, so unless there's a market I suppose it'll remain just a good idea.

Without seeing the kit installed and being able to read the results it will be hard fir folks to plunk down money. I won't personally use Willwood calipers. I had a set fail on my track car years back and never run one since. I do use both Stoptech and Alcon calipers and have had great results. Stoptech actually makes the TRD bbk that is available.

I give you props for trying something new. If you build a solution for yourself, post up some pics and results you will have a better chance of gaining some traction here.

 

[RPS13]

I'm not asking for money, I'm asking for a show of interest to see if there is a market. There's no point in paying many hundreds of dollars for a small run of caliper brackets that will sit on the shelf and collect dust if no one wants to buy them.


How did your Wilwood calipers fail? I've actually never seen or heard of a set failing, and I've sold hundreds of them personally. The o-rings are extremely temperature resistant compared to anything in an OEM caliper, and it's not like there's that much to a caliper beyond being structurally sound once the pistons can move.

 

[superman3043]

This is cool man! I'm really surprised more interest hasn't been generated, as often as guys toast calipers around here. I really haven't had any issues with my OEM ones though.

So the 5th gen rotors are the same as the 4th gen Sport rotors? That is a really good cost projection for this type of kit though. Especially since the the Stoptech BBK (only available aftermarket solution) is $2500 with rotors.

I actually do the same thing as you do in my spare time, develop BBK's on Nissans, LOL. So far I've done Corvette ZR-1 brakes from PBR and Caddy CTS-V Brembo brakes which are essentially equivalent to the GT-R's for 350Z. I think our next venture is gonna be Corvette ZR-1 CCM brakes. We use Racing Brake 2 piece rotors and Goodridge stainless lines in our kits.

I know that around the track guys here, Wilwoods are not a popular choice as well. They seem to like AP Racing and CarboTech stuff. I guess they just hold up better for guys beating on them at the track. I used Wilwoods on a military truck I worked on a few years back that was designed with lineage from the trophy truck world and they seemed to be pretty nice to me.

Anyway, thought I'd share some work. Sorry, I don't mean to thread jack here.

They debuted my first couple of kits at ZdayZ this year. Here's the ZR-1:



Here's the CTS-V/GT-R:

I started to develop a 4th Gen 4Runner kit, but scrapped it. I really thought there would be a market for it though, since it should work on FJC and Tacoma as well. Anyway, good luck with it if you decide to move forward. Maybe I'll ask to pick your brain in the future on this type of work.

 

[ebg18t]

I think Willwood is more popular in certain circles. I instructed with ACNA and PCA and we mostly see Alcon, Stoptech and Brembo.

If you can build a prototype and show it installed and tested I think you could sell plenty of kits. But as I mentioned earlier many people like to see someone else prove it before they spend the $$.

We can talk via PM about caliper failure as I don't want to distract from the thread.

 

[SkylineGTRracer]

I've beening needing a bbk for the longest time. I was going to buy the trd fj bbk (st40) but there is curently a stop sale on it.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

No interest here. My original calipers are still working fine after more than 10 years on them. I will not spend that kind of money on a ten year old vehicle.

 

[RPS13]

5th gen rotors are the same diameter as Sport 4th gen rotors, but wider. I guess I could design it around 4th gen Sport rotors, but I figured people would want a wider rotor if they were going to upgrade the calipers.


The big OEM calipers are really cool looking, but holy cow the pad prices are out of control for those when you track them. I paid for the BBK on my Nissan with only about 15-17 track weekends the pad cost was so much less and they lasted so much longer.


I honestly think most of the negative perception of Wilwood calipers is people being exposed to Dynalite calipers (small, primarily designed around being lightweight, light duty caliper), and then being let down when they try to use them as front calipers on a heavy car on track. It's more the fault of people who design stuff around them than the fault of Wilwood - as they clearly describe what the little 3 lb caliper is designed for and its intended purpose.


As for the Forged Superlite, they are an amazing caliper for the price. They're essentially the same AP Racing caliper you usually see used here in the States, as they both use the same pad shape, and honestly look about the same. The FSL has a bridge bolt in the middle that significantly stiffens the caliper. And as I said previously, the stainless steel pistons, anodized piston bores, and high temp o-rings basically make it a caliper that will never seize up.


The cost really doesn't seem all too expensive to me, as it's the same as getting a loaded caliper with GOOD pads (not that $17/axle parts store organic junk), new brake lines, and the only real cost that isn't duplicated with a reman'd caliper swap is the brackets and I suppose new rotors, but I don't view that as a cost so much as a maintenance refresh.


I thought a few more people would be interested to the feeler thread. I guess some people just like to "see it," but it's going to look like this caliper:

...on a 5th gen 4Runner rotor. The bracket will be aluminum and mil-spec hard anodized an olive drab color (I used to do engineering on fighter jets, so I tend to design parts around stringent aerospace specifications - might as well follow in the footsteps of the trillions of dollars of US Gov't research in that area and not try to reinvent the wheel ).


I should be getting a 3D printer in a few months when things calm down on the Nissan side of things, so maybe I'll design and print up a bracket and mount it up on my truck for everybody to see. I've thought about buying a small CNC Mill for the garage, in which case I'd just make some brackets out of aluminum, but that's a whole 'nother level of play toys I don't think I'm ready for just yet.

 

[SSt4r]

This certainly sounds interesting but again you might have more interest designing it around the 4th gen. (read already installed) rotors to help keep the installed price down.
I'm on my 3rd set of fronts (factory, and two NAPAs) but have the lifetime warranty on the NAPAs so I MAY just live with getting free new ones every 1 1/2 years or so.

Any thoughts on fabbing up stainless pistons for the existing calipers? That seems to me to be the problem; the pistons rust. That may be a low overhead cost project that many (like me) would be interested in if we could get a low cost fix for those damn calipers!

 

[RPS13]

8 stainless steel pistons will probably cost more than 2 aluminum caliper brackets. Getting stuff made in the USA with USA materials is pretty expensive compared to the Chinese pricing we're used to seeing. I can get stuff made for 1/4 the cost over there in quantities of 1000, but I have kept my operation 100% USA made and sourced because I believe if I can't do it at a grassroots level, then what hope do I have of saying that other companies need to give a second look at doing business over here in more terms than just dollars and cents and the bottom line.

 

[RPS13]

BTW - another problem with just replacing the pistons is that the existing calipers generally have an exposed steel body, which is always going to be an issue. It only takes a small amount of moisture and boom - corrosion all over the place.

 

[SSt4r]

I was thinking of the cost of the 8 SS pistons vs. the brackets, lines, calipers, and pads for the entire "kit". However if SS pistons wouldn't solve the seizing (caliper corroding) then it's a moot point.
Thanks for thinking about it though! :biggrin2:

 

[RPS13]

True, initial outlay might be less, but overall I think people would be pissed when the "tarted up" calipers still siezed. And unfortunately I can't do a lifetime warranty!!!


BTW - I've owned 2 E36 M3s (late model 98 coupe, 98 sedan) - great cars. I miss my sedan some days, but it was getting up there in age enough that it started to get a bit nagging on maintenance to really keep it in tip top shape. It's still in the general area that I used to live in, and I still hear about it from time to time. I imagine it's got to have at least 200k mi on it right now.

 

[SSt4r]

No that wouldn't go over well.

I ordered the M3 in '99 and just turned 80,000.:thumb3: Still love it (as well as the 'runner)!

 

[zgdnzgfhu]

Sorry for the missing image...

 

[Kmvreter]

BTW - another problem with just replacing the pistons is that the existing calipers generally have an exposed steel body, which is always going to be an issue. It only takes a small amount of moisture and boom - corrosion all over the place.

AFAIK the exposed steel body has no bearing on the caliper piston seizing so that is a moot point for me. Brakes to me are for function, cosmetic surface rust is secondary.

I've gone through too many calipers for my liking and this is a pet peeve of mine considering I thought I was buying into Toyota reliability. Luckily I can change them myself to keep the cost down or I would be really peeved...

So on to your question. No interest here. I would still not be able to justify the initial outlay through the cost avoidance of multiple future caliper changes on an older vehicle, even without life-time replacement on the remans here in Canada.

I have already planned for my next caliper change (which didn't happen this past spring as I thought it would) by not relying on the remans. I plan to go back to OEM but not outlay for their high cost reman either. I have purchased the OEM caliper rebuild kit and 4 pistons and will do the reman myself. Not sure if the NAPA or Carquest remans use new pistons or just rework them so I'm taking that factor out of the equation. I'm just following another path in an attempt to gain back some reliability. The only unanswered question is whether I will replace all the pistons or only the future seized one but I'm leaning to replace all since I will have it on the bench anyways. I'll also be able to throw a coat or two of high heat black paint on them if I'm so inclined.

Bottom-line is the bottom line: custom caliper $$$ vs replacements $