alignment question

[IBallEngineer]

That's what I initially thought too, but I put myself in place of the tech. He at least evened out the camber and slid the right front tire ahead of the left front caster. IMO, its not horrible, but it could definitely improve withh some adjustable upper control arms. You should have seen my before specs

Nope, the cross camber wasn't that bad to start, and the right side camber didn't change yet he went MORE negative on caster. The left side improved the camber but he left virtually NO caster. From a driveability standpoint it is at best, not good. But from a variation from spec stand point it is horrible. And I think the consensus here is that 3rd gens do not drive well with such low caster. I've driven a Tundra, as well as other vehicles with that sort of caster and they suck. That's not my opinion, it's the vehicle owner's. My opinion is I would not call that aligned. I see this sort of thing all the time, people who know how to operate an aligner, but don't have an understanding of what the readings are telling them, or how the changes affect the vehicle dynamics. In this case the OP's complaint was pulling under braking, and caster is the alignment angle causing this, with out question.

opcorn:

 

[IBallEngineer]

How can it be worse, it was done on a JB alignment machine :behindsofa:

That's definitely a St. Louis company machine. Conway says initial and final, not before and "actual". And we don't say Steer Ahead!

Ha Ha

:cheers:

 

[JayRolla]

Those last readings are what you're riding at now. That caster is way too high. Everything else is dead on though. What are your SPC UCAs set on?

Yea they suggested the caster for the lift for less tire rub but it actually caused more rubbing up front on my flares but lots of room out back of the tire which I like. What should I have them shoot for? 3-4*?. From what I research 4 to 5* gives more clearance. They had to be set to point to the rear can't remember the setting.

 

[Konkordmusk]

Nope, the cross camber wasn't that bad to start, and the right side camber didn't change yet he went MORE negative on caster. The left side improved the camber but he left virtually NO caster. From a driveability standpoint it is at best, not good. But from a variation from spec stand point it is horrible. And I think the consensus here is that 3rd gens do not drive well with such low caster. I've driven a Tundra, as well as other vehicles with that sort of caster and they suck. That's not my opinion, it's the vehicle owner's. My opinion is I would not call that aligned. I see this sort of thing all the time, people who know how to operate an aligner, but don't have an understanding of what the readings are telling them, or how the changes affect the vehicle dynamics. In this case the OP's complaint was pulling under braking, and caster is the alignment angle causing this, with out question.

opcorn:

I agree that the cross camber was not bad to start with.
I agree that the prior caster numbers would have caused a pull to the left. My assumption is that the OP told the alignment shop this, and they prioritized caster after seeing the before numbers, and pegging the numbers as the cause for the pull.
My other assumption is that the camber and caster cams are maxed out while keeping a decent setting. You posted in my thread a while back after I did an alignment after my lift, here are those same specs, eerily similar to what the OP has!

With stock upper control arms, that is the best alignment I could possibly get. Even with the severely decreased caster, I did not have a pull. I did eventually get adjustable upper control arms.

Without seeing how the lower control arm cams look, neither of us can really say for sure if the tech did the best he could do, keeping in mind OP's pulling complaint, or just "good-enough"!

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

Last thought: OP, you never clarified if the alignment corrected the pull. Or you did and I missed it.


Edit: Wow, look at that included angle! (Sum of SAI and camber) I just noticed that. Normally that would point to a bent steering knuckle.

 

[eatmorechickenx]

Can you post pic of all 4 adjustment cams please

 

[eatmorechickenx]

Also, my experience with firestone, the tech will put it wherever hefeels like and the roll it out and say its the best he can do. Their tech around raleigh, nc either have no training or just dont care. Even though i have lifetime alignment, i dread going to get one. Every time i end up being there for several hours and have to argue with the tech and manager until the manager lets me direct the tech on each adjustment. It takes about 10 mins of directing to get the exact specs i ask for, the same specs the tech tells me he cant get. I wish there was a place where you can pay to use the rack and just do it yourself. EVERY TIME. SAME MANAGER. Also tried another one and had same issue.

 

[IBallEngineer]

I agree that the cross camber was not bad to start with.
I agree that the prior caster numbers would have caused a pull to the left. My assumption is that the OP told the alignment shop this, and they prioritized caster after seeing the before numbers, and pegging the numbers as the cause for the pull.
My other assumption is that the camber and caster cams are maxed out while keeping a decent setting. You posted in my thread a while back after I did an alignment after my lift, here are those same specs, eerily similar to what the OP has!

With stock upper control arms, that is the best alignment I could possibly get. Even with the severely decreased caster, I did not have a pull. I did eventually get adjustable upper control arms.

Without seeing how the lower control arm cams look, neither of us can really say for sure if the tech did the best he could do, keeping in mind OP's pulling complaint, or just "good-enough"!

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

Last thought: OP, you never clarified if the alignment corrected the pull. Or you did and I missed it.


Edit: Wow, look at that included angle! (Sum of SAI and camber) I just noticed that. Normally that would point to a bent steering knuckle.

Yes, there are limits with the stock arms. My point with the OP's is that the caster got worse. You are correct that we are assuming some things, and I'm assuming the tech just did what he "felt" was good enough. But he only made things "look" better.

I don't know the spec for the included angle, but what I look for, and what I teach alignment techs is that since many manufacturers don't even give you a spec, you are looking for large variations from side to side.

I'm not sure what the answer for most people, I get frustrated with alignment techs, not using their heads. I think that most of the good techs end up doing other repairs and the shop owners allow knuckle heads to set the toe and go, but they are lost with anything requiring a little thought.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Bottom line is you wont get your caster back with a near 3" or above lift. With a reduced caster angle, you wont pull but you will have poor steering return to center after a turn and bump steer.
I recently broke down and bought new UCAs and it drives better but once again, after an alignment. my camber looks more negative on the drivers side than the passenger side and my steering wheel is slightly crooked (about 5 degrees right) Strangely, the final readouts show just the opposite. Crawled underneath and looked at the cams and one is turned upside down which is the same as setting it to zero. This is the second time I've seen a tech just keep turning the cams around and around and it drives me nuts. Tells me they don't know how to do alignments and even though I paid even more money for this alignment, I'm not going back there because they don't know what they're doing. I also doubt the reliability of their alignment machine given the odd camber readings. After the last alignment, I corrected it myself using the chart in the FSM, a level, and a tape measure. Drove on that alignment (including a long FL trip) for almost 8 months.

I do anything (almost) for a good alignment tech

 

[Funcrazy1]

Just order new SPC UCA the pull is kinda still there. Do you guys want any more pics of hardware or anything ?let me know this why I love our forum so much help

Edit----
Are there any tutorials on doing the UCA?

 

[JayRolla]

Bottom line is you wont get your caster back with a near 3" or above lift. With a reduced caster angle, you wont pull but you will have poor steering return to center after a turn and bump steer.
I recently broke down and bought new UCAs and it drives better but once again, after an alignment. my camber looks more negative on the drivers side than the passenger side and my steering wheel is slightly crooked (about 5 degrees right) Strangely, the final readouts show just the opposite. Crawled underneath and looked at the cams and one is turned upside down which is the same as setting it to zero. This is the second time I've seen a tech just keep turning the cams around and around and it drives me nuts. Tells me they don't know how to do alignments and even though I paid even more money for this alignment, I'm not going back there because they don't know what they're doing. I also doubt the reliability of their alignment machine given the odd camber readings. After the last alignment, I corrected it myself using the chart in the FSM, a level, and a tape measure. Drove on that alignment (including a long FL trip) for almost 8 months.

I do anything (almost) for a good alignment tech

I completely agree. After mine they set caster way out and I can see a very bad camber. But the numbers on the machine are good. Im going back in the morning and going to raise hell if they dont put it where I want. My front tires should be level like my rear tires and they are not at all. The caster they added is causing my tires to slam into my wheel wells just taking turns now. Very upset and its very ahrd to get a guy that knows what he is doing.

But for some reason at the D settings you cant get enough camber adjustment. I was 1.6* out with control arm maxed. They made me move back to the A position to get the adjustment which through caster way out and said its how they wanted it when really he was lazy and didnt want to bring it back to around 3.6* like I had it before. Its now at 5.6*. I manually moved it back to the 3* added so im around 4.6*. Im gong to make them adjust lower control arm to get me back, I will be pissed if they cant get it done. WTF are we paying them for anyways.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I completely agree. After mine they set caster way out and I can see a very bad camber. But the numbers on the machine are good. Im going back in the morning and going to raise hell if they dont put it where I want. My front tires should be level like my rear tires and they are not at all. The caster they added is causing my tires to slam into my wheel wells just taking turns now. Very upset and its very ahrd to get a guy that knows what he is doing.

But for some reason at the D settings you cant get enough camber adjustment. I was 1.6* out with control arm maxed. They made me move back to the A position to get the adjustment which through caster way out and said its how they wanted it when really he was lazy and didnt want to bring it back to around 3.6* like I had it before. Its now at 5.6*. I manually moved it back to the 3* added so im around 4.6*. Im gong to make them adjust lower control arm to get me back, I will be pissed if they cant get it done. WTF are we paying them for anyways.

So frustrating. So you moved the SPC star plate to the "c" setting and your guessing that the setting is 4.6 degrees? I think the cams have got to be "baselined" correctly so the UCA adjustments can be accurately dialed in. Using that chart on page 1178 of the FSM that circulates around here, I figured that the front cams should be set +4 and the rear cams should be set at -2, which should give +1.85 caster and 0 degrees camber. Add the +2 degrees caster the SPC UCAs give and I should be pretty close. Might have to dial the rear cams a little more negative so I can get more positive camber because my camber is a little too much negative (almost a degree) and my SPC camber adjustment is maxed out negative.
Lastly, I'll set the toe and probably drive that around for a bit, then take it to the PB up the street (they have a new style John Bean camera system with self calibrating cameras are you happy [MENTION=102597]IBallEngineer[/MENTION]?) and see how make sure it's dialed in.

 

[JayRolla]

So frustrating. So you moved the SPC star plate to the "c" setting and your guessing that the setting is 4.6 degrees? I think the cams have got to be "baselined" correctly so the UCA adjustments can be accurately dialed in. Using that chart on page 1178 of the FSM that circulates around here, I figured that the front cams should be set +4 and the rear cams should be set at -2, which should give +1.85 caster and 0 degrees camber. Add the +2 degrees caster the SPC UCAs give and I should be pretty close. Might have to dial the rear cams a little more negative so I can get more positive camber because my camber is a little too much negative (almost a degree) and my SPC camber adjustment is maxed out negative.
Lastly, I'll set the toe and probably drive that around for a bit, then take it to the PB up the street (they have a new style John Bean camera system with self calibrating cameras are you happy [MENTION=102597]IBallEngineer[/MENTION]?) and see how make sure it's dialed in.

Well I was able to get 1.6* on stock UCA's.. When I added the UCA's at the D locations it was at 3.6. They wanted me to go back to the A location because camber was maxed and off 1.6* but would give them more play with camber which I did and now at 5.6. I moved back 1* so guessing 4.6 till I get there tomorrow and did my own camber which looks so much better than where they had it. But again do I trust the machine or not. Im dreading tomorrow. LOL. As of now when turning tires will slam into wheel well if I hit a bump. Not good at all. Im going to have them get closest too 3.5 and see how it does. But with stock UCA's she never rubbed. They recommended I stay at the 5.6 caster which was them being lazy and not wanting to fix it.

 

[jhfleet]

Wow, never had so much trouble on alignments. But, I gotta admit I've had some crappy ones.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Well I was able to get 1.6* on stock UCA's.. When I added the UCA's at the D locations it was at 3.6. They wanted me to go back to the A location because camber was maxed and off 1.6* but would give them more play with camber which I did and now at 5.6. I moved back 1* so guessing 4.6 till I get there tomorrow and did my own camber which looks so much better than where they had it. But again do I trust the machine or not. Im dreading tomorrow. LOL. As of now when turning tires will slam into wheel well if I hit a bump. Not good at all. Im going to have them get closest too 3.5 and see how it does. But with stock UCA's she never rubbed. They recommended I stay at the 5.6 caster which was them being lazy and not wanting to fix it.

Well it's rarely the machine's fault! I understand your dread, post pics of the report, and ask them to show you the results before they remove the targets so you can give them your input. You probably know more than they do, certainly about YOUR truck.

Good luck!

:director:

 

[JayRolla]

Well it's rarely the machine's fault! I understand your dread, post pics of the report, and ask them to show you the results before they remove the targets so you can give them your input. You probably know more than they do, certainly about YOUR truck.

Good luck!

:director:

So they zeroed out my camber perfect this morning. They said there is no way moving caster back will help. They moved it too 3.6 and it was way worse, we moved back to 5.5 which helped on the rubbing.

I watched this all happen in front of me, took them about an hour of moving and testing for free. Pretty much what he is saying is when I first came in camber was out. So it didnt rub as much as when turning the tire would camber away from the wheel well. Now that they put camber and toe perfect im getting rub at the pinch weld.

So now its time to hammer away and try to avoid so much rub. They said the UCA's change the geometry a lot so its hard to get it perfect. So now it seems to be hitting pinch weld which I can live with.

 

[Paperjam]

Got my 4runner aligned today at firestone here are the results it doesn't look like they did much? All I'm trying to do is fix the pulling to the left after braking and Lil durning braking I've replaced the front left caliper

Hang on a second here. You guys are talking alignment like it's going out of style, and he is trying to fix a pull to the left while braking? There are two causes for this in my experience, either the RIGHT front caliper is not pulling its weight, causing the truck to go left when braking due to the left caliper clamping harder than the right on te disc. Or your Lca bushings are worn out, which im not sure how common they are on these 4runers.

You said you replaced the left front caliper, but you should try replacing the right front caliper.

i would try that FIRST before you beat the alignment horse any more.

Also clean and adjust the drums on the rear, sometimes they can stick on a bit causing a bit of a pull.

 

[Funcrazy1]

Hang on a second here. You guys are talking alignment like it's going out of style, and he is trying to fix a pull to the left while braking? There are two causes for this in my experience, either the RIGHT front caliper is not pulling its weight, causing the truck to go left when braking due to the left caliper clamping harder than the right on te disc. Or your Lca bushings are worn out, which im not sure how common they are on these 4runers.

You said you replaced the left front caliper, but you should try replacing the right front caliper.

i would try that FIRST before you beat the alignment horse any more.

Also clean and adjust the drums on the rear, sometimes they can stick on a bit causing a bit of a pull.

So before I put in new UCAs I should put in right caliper? So many different answers lol

edit---
Screw it I'm just going to do the UCAs and the right caliper! What is the Cross SAI why is it so bad?

 

[Paperjam]

So before I put in new UCAs I should put in right caliper? So many different answers lol

edit---
Screw it I'm just going to do the UCAs and the right caliper! What is the Cross SAI why is it so bad?

I would try the brakes first, also as I said check, adjust and clean the rear drums. Brake dust that builds up back there can cause the shoes to stick a bit. That also could be a cause of the pull.

Your sai is about 1 degree difference, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Konkordmusk]

I would try the brakes first, also as I said check, adjust and clean the rear drums. Brake dust that builds up back there can cause the shoes to stick a bit. That also could be a cause of the pull.

Your sai is about 1 degree difference, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

What? His cross SAI is -7.4! That would normally point to a bent spindle as mentioned before.
I think we were all guessing alignment because the op mentioned the pull AFTER braking. I agree that the brakes are still probably the culprit, and your rear drum suggestion is spot on, but getting an alignment done is never a bad idea, as long as a competent tech does it!

 

[Funcrazy1]

What? His cross SAI is -7.4! That would normally point to a bent spindle as mentioned before.
I think we were all guessing alignment because the op mentioned the pull AFTER braking. I agree that the brakes are still probably the culprit, and your rear drum suggestion is spot on, but getting an alignment done is never a bad idea, as long as a competent tech does it!

How does one check for a bad spindle?