America this week, what the hell?
- Thread starter amalik
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1engineer
Moderator
Here are the rules http://www.toyota-4runner.org/new-members/205103-toyota-4runner-org-forum-rules-must-read.html go to #3.
Sorry I don't meet your definition of doing a good job as a mod. I guess if I were doing it right you, along with many others here would already be banned based on posts in this thread alone.
There is in place an infraction system in this forum. I have used it many times, especially with new posters. With people who have higher post counts and have been here for awhile, the infraction system does not seem to work as they just blow it off. As far as the rules you guys have broken in this thread the infraction system goes straight to an immediate and permanent ban. No cautions, warnings, two or five day suspension, nothing but a permanent ban.
I don't like that personally. I would rather warn, either publicly or through a pm, sometimes several times, before having to ban a long time member. I know sometimes arguments get heated and passions are inflamed which is why I warn instead of going for a ban over one or two posts. This is why I am even writing this post because I don't want to ban any of you. Get it?
Unfortunately being a mod means you live in the gray areas all the time. There never is black or white. We have to interpret the posts, the infractions, the intent, etc. Guess what... no matter what my interpretation of it is, you or anyone else will never 100% agree with it. It is what it is.
For example, you are going to read the rule link I posted above, come to this paragraph that says "No Trolling or Posts For the Purpose of Instigating Flame Wars
This includes, but is not limited to, posts designed to instigate political and religious flame wars (e.g., starting a poll asking whether or not you think the President is a re****). Trolling includes making deliberate provocative posts with the aim of inciting an angry response or disrupting discussion. Determinations on the issue of whether a post was made for the purpose of trolling or of instigating a flame war shall be in the sole and absolute discretion of the admins / mods." and think "hmmmm. This does not say political posts are forbidden!" You would be right except for one thing - Show me or even describe to me one political or religious thread that won't instigate a flame war! You can't. With that in mind the logical progression would be "political threads will always devolve into flame wars so political threads are not allowed." Geez go back and read the past several pages of this thread. Go to the middle of the thread. Nowhere can you find several posts together where someone didn't make a snide comment designed to get a reaction out of the other side. That is this part: "making deliberate provocative posts with the aim of inciting an angry response or disrupting discussion." Get it?
[MENTION=68039]-JD-[/MENTION] posted a few pages ago this: "FWIW we may not have changed minds, but I think at least a few people in this thread learned something." I contend that the only thing that people learned from this thread is the fact that their opinion has been justified and is right and the other side can go pound sand. There is nothing here but opinion. When someone posted a fact or a link to a fact it was immediately countered with snorts of derision and more posts designed to get a rise out of the other side.
So you can tell me I am not doing a good job as a mod all you want. The above is just a bit of insight from my side. I try to make the right decisions. Sometimes I don't. I have reversed several. Again, this is a 4Runner forum. There are thousands of political forums out there that you can post to your heart's content. I will say that many of these posts in this thread would have already been deleted from most forums but I hate deleting posts. With that said I could just start deleting posts that break the rules.
Actually that's a good idea. I will let the political threads continue but I will delete any post that breaks the rules. Those threads will have very few posts...
Jernik
New member
I will say this, in all seriousness; I am on another forum that simply took away the misc. section of their board and no longer allow anything other than threads/posts relevant to the forum.
The progression took time... at first the misc. section was not modded. People wailed and complained. So they modded it, people got banned, posts were deleted. People wailed and complained. They went back to un-modded. It got out of hand, people wailed and complained... and they had enough. To simplify their life, those running the site pulled the plug on the misc. section.
So now there is no camaraderie there. It is almost strictly ask question, give answer. No fun allowed.
Just something to think about. But like that forum, I'm sure there are some super serious, never have fun types that would like to see all non technical 4Runner posts/threads removed. So tread carefully. We have it pretty good here, it's up to us to not screw it up.
The progression took time... at first the misc. section was not modded. People wailed and complained. So they modded it, people got banned, posts were deleted. People wailed and complained. They went back to un-modded. It got out of hand, people wailed and complained... and they had enough. To simplify their life, those running the site pulled the plug on the misc. section.
So now there is no camaraderie there. It is almost strictly ask question, give answer. No fun allowed.
Just something to think about. But like that forum, I'm sure there are some super serious, never have fun types that would like to see all non technical 4Runner posts/threads removed. So tread carefully. We have it pretty good here, it's up to us to not screw it up.
ndcent
New member
The idea a board member that doesn't even post in off topic complained about it and that somehow led to direct action by a mod seems so nonsensical I'm at a loss.
Get a life nameless non-participant. Like complaining about seeing someone eating a donut bc you're on a diet. Get over yourself.
Get a life nameless non-participant. Like complaining about seeing someone eating a donut bc you're on a diet. Get over yourself.
1engineer
Moderator
You would be surprised how many pm's I get from people that are members that have ZERO posts. Their rights and expectations as members are the same as mine or yours.
A lot of people peruse different areas that never post there. This person was offended, mentioned one name and I responded. After reading other posts leading up to it I should have been monitoring this section anyway.
nevada
Senior Member
you're right, I would conclude that it doesn't say no political threads. in fact in actuality it says POSTS, nothing about threads. Further, I would also say that most political type threads are not posted with the intent to "incite an angry response or disrupting discussion".
that may very well be the natural progression of the posts, but not their initial intent. just like has been said in the past, we cant punish(not allow a thread in this instance) people for something they have not done yet.
it is possible a thread could continue down a reasonable path. therefore, it must be allowed to happen, and until it goes awry, to remain open to all.
I would have to guess the infraction system for this site is similar to the rest. im not sure that anyone in this thread would have earned a permanent ban. not based on the points system at least. those are generally left for very serious offenses, and not to be taken lightly. though a 3, 5, or even a 10 day ban may be in order in some cases.
Hepar
New member
It's funny to me how much of a microcosm this could be for so many other issues. People want zero regulation, but with zero regulation so many more problems arise. If people really did have the ability to self-moderate, a moderator would not be necessary. But a moderator is necessary...
And [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION], please don't take my responses as you doing a lousy job. You're in a lose-lose situation. I'm sure you didn't join this site to be a babysitter to us all. I do feel you do a good job. There have been times in the past where I feel it may have been hard for you to be "moderate" in certain threads where you had a very strong stance on one side. Staying out of these hot topics for the most part seems like the only choice. I certainly don't envy you. Especially given the salary...
And [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION], please don't take my responses as you doing a lousy job. You're in a lose-lose situation. I'm sure you didn't join this site to be a babysitter to us all. I do feel you do a good job. There have been times in the past where I feel it may have been hard for you to be "moderate" in certain threads where you had a very strong stance on one side. Staying out of these hot topics for the most part seems like the only choice. I certainly don't envy you. Especially given the salary...
Victor_inox
New member
BrianSD_42
New member
I very much disagree with the permanent bans for minor infractions.
So far the only instances where I've seen someone get a permanent ban is a person or two who told one particular mod to more or less Go F#@k themselves.
Don't do that people.
Personally I like the idea of a 5 day ban. COBs rules are very broad, to the point that they cannot consistently be implemented across the site without causing a riot. Mostly the rules are loosely interpreted except for the biggest offenders. That is how it has worked to date.
So far the only instances where I've seen someone get a permanent ban is a person or two who told one particular mod to more or less Go F#@k themselves.
Don't do that people.
Personally I like the idea of a 5 day ban. COBs rules are very broad, to the point that they cannot consistently be implemented across the site without causing a riot. Mostly the rules are loosely interpreted except for the biggest offenders. That is how it has worked to date.
wallytoo
Member
i wouldn't have the gall to point out such a thing, either.
ndcent
New member
You're a class act. Thanks!
97BlackAckCL
Elite Member
I'm a mod on another forum and members tell me to F myself all the time :rofl:
Hepar
New member
Is there a salary?
That's the point. That he's doing this for free.
1engineer
Moderator
Here's the deal then:
From now on, I will loosely monitor any political or religious posts and threads in the off topic section. If I see a post that I feel is designed to illicit a emotional response or any type of "baiting" then I will delete the post. No discussion, no nothing. If too many of these happen then I will give the infraction until you are banned. Again, no discussion, no nothing. You can start a thread on those topics and as long as you behave, then no problem.
Starting..... now.
Good luck.
-mod-
From now on, I will loosely monitor any political or religious posts and threads in the off topic section. If I see a post that I feel is designed to illicit a emotional response or any type of "baiting" then I will delete the post. No discussion, no nothing. If too many of these happen then I will give the infraction until you are banned. Again, no discussion, no nothing. You can start a thread on those topics and as long as you behave, then no problem.
Starting..... now.
Good luck.
-mod-
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Victor_inox
New member
That`s what I thought.:roadkill:
BrianSD_42
New member
This is an unfortunate development. In the past we've discussed deleting with mods and it was agreed to that mods would edit posts, remove the content and only leave "deleted by mod"
Shadow deletions where members are reading something one member wrote and mods just delete the post or several with no trace is just terrible.
I am completely against a policy like that. If you are going to do justified deletions leave a trace. The way to do this is to edit their post and replace the content with "deleted by mod" vs deleting the whole post.
This sounds super subjective. Didn't you create a weed thread awhile back? I'm sure that got emotional.
-JD-
New member
Only issue I have is the fact that the person who seems to have been offended isn't anyone whom the personal 'jabs', baiting, or attempts at an emotional response were aimed at.
Is that the new standard? If any third party feels offended by something we change the way we operate?
I understand that the forum has rules, I guess the part I have a problem understanding is why some of them are necessary. In a country that so highly values free speech why do we need to censor the internet of all places. If someone feels offended by something, especially something that wasn't directed at them personally, they always have the right to click elsewhere and not read it.
Is that the new standard? If any third party feels offended by something we change the way we operate?
I understand that the forum has rules, I guess the part I have a problem understanding is why some of them are necessary. In a country that so highly values free speech why do we need to censor the internet of all places. If someone feels offended by something, especially something that wasn't directed at them personally, they always have the right to click elsewhere and not read it.
1engineer
Moderator
Actually that thread was one of the more civilized threads. Go read it sometime.
When I delete a post it will show that I deleted it along with the reason. No shadow deletions and any mod will still be able to look at it. That's the way I always do it.
Being a mod IS super subjective. We have a handful of vague rules and are supposed to figure it out from there. I consider myself a fairly regular guy that likes jokes and poking fun as much as the other guy. But when it gets out of hand It will go away and infractions and bans will happen. I am not some 20 something kid. I know a bit about a few things.
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