America this week, what the hell?

[ThorInc]

From Wikipedia:

Civil discourse

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Civil discourse is engagement in discourse (conversation) intended to enhance understanding.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[1]</sup>Overview
Kenneth J. Gergen describes civil discourse as "the language of dispassionate objectivity", and suggests that it requires respect of the other participants, such as the reader. It neither diminishes the other's moral worth, nor questions their good judgment; it avoids hostility, direct antagonism, or excessive persuasion; it requires modesty and an appreciation for the other participant's experiences.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[2]</sup>
In Book III of An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1690), John Locke contrasts between civil and philosophical discourse (or rhetorical discourse) with the former being for the benefit of the reader, and the public good:<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[3]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[4]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference">[5]</sup>
<table class="cquote" role="presentation" style="margin:auto; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; background-color: transparent; width: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="width: 20px; vertical-align: top; border: none; color: #B2B7F2; font-size: 40px; font-family: 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: .6em; text-align: left; padding: 10px 10px;">“</td> <td style="vertical-align: top; border: none; padding: 4px 10px;">First, By, their civil use, I mean such a communication of thoughts and ideas by words, as may serve for the upholding common conversation and commerce, about the ordinary affairs and conveniences of civil life, in the societies of men, one amongst another. Secondly, By the philosophical use of words, I mean such a use of them as may serve to convey the precise notions of things, and to express in general propositions certain and undoubted truths, which the mind may rest upon and be satisfied with in its search after true knowledge. These two uses are very distinct; and a great deal less exactness will serve in the one than in the other, as we shall see in what follows.




</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[-JD-]

So amid all of the heated exchanges, insults and a few actual facts I'm just curious as to where people stand on this.

Do those of you who have been posting up statistics about police shootings not believe that racial bias and intolerance exist amongst police? Is your position that there is NO problem?

 

[Jernik]

So amid all of the heated exchanges, insults and a few actual facts I'm just curious as to where people stand on this.

Do those of you who have been posting up statistics about police shootings not believe that racial bias and intolerance exist amongst police? Is your position that there is NO problem?

It's deeper than just racist cops. From the videos I've seen of various incidents, in mpst instances had the person simply complied with officers they would still be alive. There is a disconnect somewhere... I read a lot of statements to the tune of "the police should not escalate the situation", but no mention of any responsibility on the suspect (for lack of a better word) to not escalate the situation. When a cop has a gun pulled, that is NOT the time to be confrontational and/or resist, no matter how unjust the stop is. But they are.

Admittedly, I do not know how minorities feel. Maybe they don't feel they can fight the charges fairly in court, and think they have better odds by fighting the cops - I don't know. From my life experiences, I just can't understand the thought process of fighting the police in these situations. It never turns out well for anyone involved.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

So amid all of the heated exchanges, insults and a few actual facts I'm just curious as to where people stand on this.

Do those of you who have been posting up statistics about police shootings not believe that racial bias and intolerance exist amongst police? Is your position that there is NO problem?

Racial bias and intolerance are not specifically police problems. they are societal problems. Certain individuals are racist and intolerant. It isn't ALL POLICE.

Police are just regular dudes with badges. They are just like everyone else. There is going to be a certain percentage of folks who are racist. Be they motorcycle mechanics, drug dealers, liberal arts teachers, etc.

Racism and hate are parts of human nature. Law enforcement officers are human.

When the facts of an individual shooting point to that shoot being a BAD SHOOT; prosecute them. When the facts point to a GOOD SHOOT, move on.

The problem is that folks don't care if it is a good shoot or a bad shoot, folks are being racist themselves- by saying that because it was a white guy shooting a black guy it MUST be only because of race.

When all of the facts point to a good shoot, they scream foul play. Can't be that it's a good shoot- RACISM!!!!! It's BS.

In MOST of these shootings, they are god shoots. A few they are not. But it doesn't matter to the BLM folks, facts aren't what's important, it's skin pigment- that is the most important factor to them.

If they really wanted to focus on saving black lives, they would focus on communities where black lives are being taken in great numbers and those who are taking them- other black men in their communities.

So yeah, when there is a racist cop killing people based on skin pigment- that is terrible and they should rot in prison.

Do you honestly think that is the majority of OIS's involving black people?

The facts don't support that. But a lot of folks don't care about the facts.

 

[-JD-]

So my question was whether or not people think this is an issue within the police department. I see a whole lot of people making excuses, but no one directly answering the question.

I would just add that I think you have to consider MORE than just OIS's to understand where people are coming from. The feelings of bias and mistrust against the police stems from more than just shootings. I would also add that its an issue beyond race. I'm white and I also have a distrust of police based on my dealings with them in my life. I would imagine not to the same degree that a black person may have, but there is no shortage of videos of police abuse occurring to white people as well.

As for the police vs civilian responsibility I think you have to place more responsibility on the professionals who have been trained and are being paid to do the right thing. Should every civilian be trained in de-escalating a tense situation? or should the police? Who drew the first weapon to 'escalate' the situation to that level in the first place? Who is the one in the position of power/authority? Does resisting arrest forfeit your rite to life?

"I just can't understand the thought process of fighting the police in these situations."
Really? I'm not saying that I support it, or would even do it, but I certainly understand it. If you are being physically hurt, assaulted or otherwise abused in way that you feel is unjust you would just lay there and take it? What about someone you love? Your wife or child is being thrown around or on the ground with 2+ officers on top of them with their knees digging into their back while they are crying out in pain and you cant understand how someone would react to that?


It's a simple question, but I think an important one to further this debate. Do you think there are issues within police departments in America? YES or NO. No solution will ever be found if we can't start by admitting there is a problem...

 

[ThorInc]

So my question was whether or not people think this is an issue within the police department. I see a whole lot of people making excuses, but no one directly answering the question.

I would just add that I think you have to consider MORE than just OIS's to understand where people are coming from. The feelings of bias and mistrust against the police stems from more than just shootings. I would also add that its an issue beyond race. I'm white and I also have a distrust of police based on my dealings with them in my life. I would imagine not to the same degree that a black person may have, but there is no shortage of videos of police abuse occurring to white people as well.

As for the police vs civilian responsibility I think you have to place more responsibility on the professionals who have been trained and are being paid to do the right thing. Should every civilian be trained in de-escalating a tense situation? or should the police? Who drew the first weapon to 'escalate' the situation to that level in the first place? Who is the one in the position of power/authority? Does resisting arrest forfeit your rite to life?

"I just can't understand the thought process of fighting the police in these situations."
Really? I'm not saying that I support it, or would even do it, but I certainly understand it. If you are being physically hurt, assaulted or otherwise abused in way that you feel is unjust you would just lay there and take it? What about someone you love? Your wife or child is being thrown around or on the ground with 2+ officers on top of them with their knees digging into their back while they are crying out in pain and you cant understand how someone would react to that?


It's a simple question, but I think an important one to further this debate. Do you think there are issues within police departments in America? YES or NO. No solution will ever be found if we can't start by admitting there is a problem...

One thing worth adding to this, in my opinion, is the possible violation of a citizen's constitutional rights. Where is the line drawn or do we look through the fingers as a society depending on who is involved? Does this even occur and if so, can it add to mistrust by certain members of the public?

 

[1engineer]

So my question was whether or not people think this is an issue within the police department. I see a whole lot of people making excuses, but no one directly answering the question.

I would just add that I think you have to consider MORE than just OIS's to understand where people are coming from. The feelings of bias and mistrust against the police stems from more than just shootings. I would also add that its an issue beyond race. I'm white and I also have a distrust of police based on my dealings with them in my life. I would imagine not to the same degree that a black person may have, but there is no shortage of videos of police abuse occurring to white people as well.

As for the police vs civilian responsibility I think you have to place more responsibility on the professionals who have been trained and are being paid to do the right thing. Should every civilian be trained in de-escalating a tense situation? or should the police? Who drew the first weapon to 'escalate' the situation to that level in the first place? Who is the one in the position of power/authority? Does resisting arrest forfeit your rite to life?

"I just can't understand the thought process of fighting the police in these situations."
Really? I'm not saying that I support it, or would even do it, but I certainly understand it. If you are being physically hurt, assaulted or otherwise abused in way that you feel is unjust you would just lay there and take it? What about someone you love? Your wife or child is being thrown around or on the ground with 2+ officers on top of them with their knees digging into their back while they are crying out in pain and you cant understand how someone would react to that?


It's a simple question, but I think an important one to further this debate. Do you think there are issues within police departments in America? YES or NO. No solution will ever be found if we can't start by admitting there is a problem...

Maybe I'm not very smart but if the person telling me what to do, police or otherwise, has a gun then I'm going to do what they say.

I posted the links showing black people are NOT killed by police more than white people. What part of the facts do you not understand? Don't make it more than what it is please. The argument was police kill more black people than anyone for whatever reason, racism or otherwise.

Do black people get unfair treatment from police? That's a tough question. It's proven that black males commit a higher percentage of crime and violent crime. I will go out on a limb here and say the police are profiling, either on purpose or involuntary. They also are much tougher on males than females. Are they guilty of sexism or is it because males commit more crimes generally than females?

Read those links.

 

[Yukon4Runner]

Worrying about our yard keeps him from dealing with his own yard.

 

[Thefishguy77]

It been a while but let's start. The Federalist Papers were written by Madison, Hamilton, & Jay. They were in essence a sales pitch to ratify the constitution and create a union. They pointed out the problems with the current government and why the constitution was a better means of government. Paper 84 stuck with me a lot because it actually argued against what became the Bill Of Rights. Stating that the constitution was put in place to limit the government and not the people.

While Hamilton argued for the government to control the militia Jay and Madison argued against it.

So for a beginning of the discussion I would put out there that the papers were a on going way to help compromise and all the constitution.
All legitimate comments and corrections are encouraged.

Sorry it's so short for the start. But the start has to start somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[-JD-]

Yes or no?

 

[-JD-]

Read those links.

They said, basically, what I thought they would say.

He then analysed how non-lethal uses of force—such as pushing, kicking and baton-wielding—varied by race. Based on the raw data, blacks and Hispanics were more than 50% more likely to encounter police force than whites.

This in itself was not proof of racial discrimination, notes Mr Fryer. The gap might be a result of what happened during the encounters; blacks might have been more likely to resist. And yet, after any such differences were accounted for, the results still suggested bias. Blacks were 17.3% more likely to incur use of force after controlling for the characteristics of the civilian (such as age) and the encounter (such as if they ran away, complained or hit an officer).

Analysis of a national survey of citizens’ contact with police found even greater disparities in police use of non-lethal force. Mr Fryer adds that blacks who were reported by cops as being perfectly compliant with police instructions during their interactions were still 21.1% more likely than whites to have some force used against them. This points to racial prejudice.

Critics of Mr Fryer’s work have pointed out that his paper does not address any bias in an officer’s decision to stop a black person in the first place—a common criticism of stop and frisk. Mr Fryer acknowledges that blacks are more likely to be stopped

In explaining why racial bias is present in all cases except shootings Mr Fryer suggests that it may reflect how officers are rarely punished for relatively minor acts of discrimination.

Although activists argue that too many officers get off lightly when they harm civilians, cops find it hard to escape any scrutiny after discharging their weapon.

It also points out that the data was based off of reports voluntarily (pre-screened) submitted from one city, Houston.


The other link you provided also goes on to say:

Please note that this result says nothing about the existence of racist police officers in America. Sadly, while the situation is immensely better than in my youth, we know that there are still far too many racists in the US … including in the police forces.

 

[Jernik]

So my question was whether or not people think this is an issue within the police department. I see a whole lot of people making excuses, but no one directly answering the question.

I would just add that I think you have to consider MORE than just OIS's to understand where people are coming from. The feelings of bias and mistrust against the police stems from more than just shootings. I would also add that its an issue beyond race. I'm white and I also have a distrust of police based on my dealings with them in my life. I would imagine not to the same degree that a black person may have, but there is no shortage of videos of police abuse occurring to white people as well.

As for the police vs civilian responsibility I think you have to place more responsibility on the professionals who have been trained and are being paid to do the right thing. Should every civilian be trained in de-escalating a tense situation? or should the police? Who drew the first weapon to 'escalate' the situation to that level in the first place? Who is the one in the position of power/authority? Does resisting arrest forfeit your rite to life?

"I just can't understand the thought process of fighting the police in these situations."
Really? I'm not saying that I support it, or would even do it, but I certainly understand it. If you are being physically hurt, assaulted or otherwise abused in way that you feel is unjust you would just lay there and take it? What about someone you love? Your wife or child is being thrown around or on the ground with 2+ officers on top of them with their knees digging into their back while they are crying out in pain and you cant understand how someone would react to that?


It's a simple question, but I think an important one to further this debate. Do you think there are issues within police departments in America? YES or NO. No solution will ever be found if we can't start by admitting there is a problem...

I feel you're trying to pigeonhole me into a specific answer you want to hear. Life is not, pardon the pun in this discussion, black and white. Do SOME police departments have issues? Yes. Do ALL police departments have issues? No.

Closest I've ever been to such a situation was years ago. I was pulled over for speeding, and noticed in the rearview the 2nd officer approaching from the passenger side had his weapon drawn and pointed through the back window. I had car shut off, both windows down (coupe). They had me get out of the car for a speefing violation. They were quite the A-holes about it, but I kept my cool and they never touched me other than a quick check for weapons. I still don't know if my car matched a discription of one in a crime, if they thought I might have been drinking (no, I was 19 at the time) or if they were just a couple of bored jerks with badges. But I do know this; I could have stood there and berated them, give them some verbal rebuke about my rights, perhaps take a swing at one of them to drive home my point... And what would it have got me? Maybe that knee in the back and a ride downtown. I don't know because I controlled myself and didn't give them a reason to. Still got a ticket though.

I've had several tickets and interactions with police since. Of all the times I gave Johnny Law a reason to pull me over, only two others were unpleasant. Not to the extent those guys were, just kinda rude demeanor. Most were quite pleasant and professional. A couple were almost overly pleasant, almost made it a good experience to get a ticket.

So yeah, from my life experience, I don't get it. And I admit, said it before, I've never been in those shoes, so it IS hard for me to understand. In my mind, based on my experience, if the law is wrestling you to the ground it is not because you were polite and controlling your emotions. Don't give them a reason to put you on the ground. Certainly don't give them a reason, or even an excuse, to shoot. Why would anyone do that?

 

[Jernik]

Serious question though, to everyone. What is the solution?

Some people hate the police. Can these people ever support police presence even if we could magically eliminate all prejudice from the force and they always reacted 100% correctly in every situation?

Not possible, right? So what's the alternative? No police? How might that work out... we wake up tomorrow and *poof* no more police. Without police, there is no crime. But people will still steal, assault, kill others. Those behaviors will not go away just because the police do. Stay with me.

So the argument now is that suspected criminals (note, suspected, not proven) are being shot and killed by police for assumed crimes with no judge or jury trial. How will it work when the general public is forced to defend themselves and their property? Would the number of suspected criminals shot and killed with no trial by judge or jury increase or decrease? Will homicides in general increase or decrease? Theft? Assault?

Would the United States - without police - survive as a civilized country? Or would anarchy reign? And is anarchy what we really want?

If that answer is "No", then it is obvious we need some level of law and order. And to do so, there must be a level of respect shared equally between the citizens and those paid to maintain law and order. It cannot be one sided.
So how do we get there? Police must respect the citizens, and citizens must respect the police. From our current, fractured state where police are killing citizens and citizens are killing police, how do we foster trust and respect for each other?

 

[Hepar]

I posted the links showing black people are NOT killed by police more than white people. What part of the facts do you not understand? Don't make it more than what it is please. The argument was police kill more black people than anyone for whatever reason, racism or otherwise.

It actually does. At least in the first link you posted. I will admit I didn't read the 2nd link yet.

But in the first link it states that in 2015, 494 white people were killed compared to 258 blacks. That's under a 2:1 ratio. According to the 2014 US census, 77% of the population was considered white while 13% of the population was considered black. So that would be a ratio of roughly 6:1. So, by the statistic linked, it shows that blacks are killed at a considerably higher rate.

 

[AJD_Limited]

Some people are signifying support for police by putting a line of blue painter's masking tape on top of your rear vehicle window. I have done this.

 

[Hepar]

Serious question though, to everyone. What is the solution?

Some people hate the police. Can these people ever support police presence even if we could magically eliminate all prejudice from the force and they always reacted 100% correctly in every situation?

Not possible, right? So what's the alternative? No police? How might that work out... we wake up tomorrow and *poof* no more police. Without police, there is no crime. But people will still steal, assault, kill others. Those behaviors will not go away just because the police do. Stay with me.

So the argument now is that suspected criminals (note, suspected, not proven) are being shot and killed by police for assumed crimes with no judge or jury trial. How will it work when the general public is forced to defend themselves and their property? Would the number of suspected criminals shot and killed with no trial by judge or jury increase or decrease? Will homicides in general increase or decrease? Theft? Assault?

Would the United States - without police - survive as a civilized country? Or would anarchy reign? And is anarchy what we really want?

If that answer is "No", then it is obvious we need some level of law and order. And to do so, there must be a level of respect shared equally between the citizens and those paid to maintain law and order. It cannot be one sided.
So how do we get there? Police must respect the citizens, and citizens must respect the police. From our current, fractured state where police are killing citizens and citizens are killing police, how do we foster trust and respect for each other?

I think step one is recognizing there is an issue. And to realize that it is a ridiculously complicated one that we continually try to make simple and to where you can only be on one side or the other.

You stated, "Police must respect the citizens, and citizens must respect the police." I couldn't agree more. But we must accept that there are areas where that is a huge issue. That we can recognize that people can become disenfranchised with their local police and vice versa. It doesn't mean they overtly hate one another, but much of the trust has been lost. Some other ways I feel that we can improve is to try to understand that even police with the best intentions can become jaded through many hours, days, weeks and years on the same streets. That needs to be addressed somehow. Maybe by making sure that we have them do as much community work as well as patrol or something along those lines? As well as there needs to be more checks and balances within the force itself. Recognize that mistakes can be made, but address them. Recognize that there are very few of us humans that can effectively handle power and take the steps necessary to try and balance it. And the other side is yes, communities need to take more responsibility for their actions as well. That while there is so much out of your control, that there is some power that is in your control and to attempt to do what you can with that control.

Another is to not shut people out and assume what they are feeling and/or thinking. This issue we're discussing has turned into a very specific one where the roots of the issue I feel are something completely different. Yes, the BLM movement is in my opinion completely ridiculous and becoming more and more dangerous. But don't dismiss it just because the "organization" lacks just that. Recognize that there are so many people angry and angry for good reasons.

Overall though, like I said above. It is such a complicated issue. The vast majority of it revolves around our poverty issue which has nothing to do with race, but a systemic poverty issue that was created largely around it. And we're not making it better. Our systems are failing our poor.

 

[-JD-]

I feel you're trying to pigeonhole me into a specific answer you want to hear. Life is not, pardon the pun in this discussion, black and white. Do SOME police departments have issues? Yes. Do ALL police departments have issues? No.

I'm not trying to imply that if someone says yes it means that ALL police departments, or all police, have issues. All I'm trying to do is establish that there is an issue so we can further the discussion.
Its tough to get anywhere when half the people refuse to acknowledge anything is wrong or continue to try to muddy the waters with excuses, conjecture, or anecdotal evidence.

It actually does. At least in the first link you posted. I will admit I didn't read the 2nd link yet.

But in the first link it states that in 2015, 494 white people were killed compared to 258 blacks. That's under a 2:1 ratio. According to the 2014 US census, 77% of the population was considered white while 13% of the population was considered black. So that would be a ratio of roughly 6:1. So, by the statistic linked, it shows that blacks are killed at a considerably higher rate.

If you read on they say that is not a fair comparison and instead adjust the numbers in relation to the total number of violent crimes. They say this cherry picked stat is more fair because black people commit more violent crimes and most shootings happen as a result of violent crimes.

Which brings us to the next question, why are a disproportionate number of violent crimes committed by black people? Are black people just inherently more violent, or are there other societal (systemic) issues that are contributing factors?

 

[ThorInc]

I think step one is recognizing there is an issue. And to realize that it is a ridiculously complicated one that we continually try to make simple and to where you can only be on one side or the other.

..........................................................

Amen.

 

[1engineer]

They said, basically, what I thought they would say.

It actually does. At least in the first link you posted. I will admit I didn't read the 2nd link yet.

But in the first link it states that in 2015, 494 white people were killed compared to 258 blacks. That's under a 2:1 ratio. According to the 2014 US census, 77% of the population was considered white while 13% of the population was considered black. So that would be a ratio of roughly 6:1. So, by the statistic linked, it shows that blacks are killed at a considerably higher rate.

That is incorrect, and that simplistic way was the way I was looking at it. Here is an excerpt from my first link: (I marked the relevant sections in bold)

"By race and ethnicity, there were 494 whites, 258 blacks, 172 Hispanics, 15 Asians, 14 American Indians or Alaskan natives, 9 “other” races, and 28 deaths with the race not specified. Which leads to the question … is there a racial imbalance? And in particular, are African-American people being killed at an excessive rate?


Now, many folks calculate the death rates of the groups by comparing the numbers killed, to the corresponding numbers of that group in the general population … but you can’t do that. It leads to wildly incorrect conclusions. Here is an example that shows why comparing numbers of police shootings to the corresponding number of individuals in the general population leads to big errors:

Men make up about 50% of the general population, but men comprise 96% of those killed by police. Does this huge number of “excess male deaths” prove that the police are being sexist and that they are biased against men? Does this imbalance in the number of men killed mean that we need a “Male Lives Matter Too” movement?

Of course not. Instead, it simply demonstrates that men both commit and are arrested for far more crimes of violence than women; that men are far more likely than women to both carry and use weapons; that men are far more likely to both threaten and commit serious violence against a police officer than are women; and most importantly, that men are far more likely than women to violently resist arrest.

The one thread in the Washington Post database that is common to the overwhelming majority of police shootings is that almost all of the civilians were killed while resisting arrest. The records of the deaths show that to keep from going to jail, people were fighting with the police; they were shooting at the police; if they didn’t have a weapon handy they were punching the police or trying to drown the police; they were trying to run the officer over with a car or smash the officer’s skull with a baseball bat … but regardless of the endless variations of method, almost everyone killed by the police was in exactly the same situation—no less than 97% of the people fatally shot by police were killed during the course of an arrest that went bad when the people tried to resist.

Now, don’t get me wrong here. Certainly there were people unjustifiably killed during 2015. Even though only about three percent were not resisting arrest, that’s still thirty-four deaths of people who were not resisting the police when they were killed … double-plus ungood. And resisting arrest doesn’t automatically justify a death sentence. I’m sure you all remember the unarmed black man who was shot and killed in February 2015 in a Pennsylvania restaurant, while lying face down on the floor after being tasered. So yes, wrongful and unjustifiable deaths do occur. In addition, as happens most years, there were people killed by accident in 2015, like the bystander to a gun battle between undercover police and violent criminals who was killed by a badly aimed police bullet. And there were a couple of tragic misperceptions of the type where someone was holding a cell phone and the officer thought it was a gun.

But justified or not, 97% of the deaths by police were variations on a simple age-old theme—someone was violently resisting arrest, usually with a weapon of some sort, and the arrest went bad.
Now, I demonstrated above with men versus women that you can’t simply compare killings against the corresponding raw population figures. It gives us very wrong answers. So what should the number of killings be compared to?

Since the common thread in the killings is that the person was resisting arrest, we need to compare how often people of each race get killed by police, with how often people of the same race get arrested by police. But clearly, we’re not interested in arrests for jaywalking and the like. Since 97% of these deaths are occurring in the context of people violently resisting arrest, they are best compared to the corresponding number of arrests for violent crimes.

Here are the results of that comparison for 2015.

For every 10,000 white people arrested for a violent crime, 38 white people were killed by police (± 2).
For every 10,000 hispanic people arrested for a violent crime, 21 hispanic people were killed by police (± 3).
For every 10,000 black people arrested for a violent crime, 21 black people were killed by police (± 2).

Go figure … I was as surprised as you, so I’ve triple checked the numbers, and it’s true—the odds of a given arrest going bad and ending up in a death are much greater for white men than for black or hispanic men.

Please note that this result says nothing about the existence of racist police officers in America. Sadly, while the situation is immensely better than in my youth, we know that there are still far too many racists in the US … including in the police forces.

And it says nothing about racist policing in America. Again the beneficial changes in my lifetime have been huge, but there still remain any number of places where DWB is often a crime, and jurisdictions where people of color are regularly harassed and stopped by police.

Are there unjustified killings among the Washington Post data? You can be certain there are, it is a rare but real issue. Is there more work to be done? Assuredly. But the Post data doesn’t and can’t answer those questions."

Please go back and re read the first link.

 

[RunninInGA]

It actually does. At least in the first link you posted. I will admit I didn't read the 2nd link yet.

But in the first link it states that in 2015, 494 white people were killed compared to 258 blacks. That's under a 2:1 ratio. According to the 2014 US census, 77% of the population was considered white while 13% of the population was considered black. So that would be a ratio of roughly 6:1. So, by the statistic linked, it shows that blacks are killed at a considerably higher rate.

Let's not ignore that there are numerous studies showing blacks commit a considerably higher rate of crime, particularly violent crime, than any other race.