America this week, what the hell?

[ThorInc]

Let's not ignore that there are numerous studies showing blacks commit a considerably higher rate of crime, particularly violent crime, than any other race.

I totally agree. The specifics as to the why, I am sure that's where the discussion can take many directions.

The statistics referenced above don't consider the race of the policing force or whether it reflects the community being policed. I think this is relevant and I link it to my personal experiences. When I operated my business, I was personally robbed 6 times, 4 times successfully and twice unsuccessfully. The racial make up of the perps, twice by whites, three times by blacks and once by Tamils....all males, of course. The event that would likely shape any future encounter for me would be the one with the Tamils. Small males with something to prove (napoleon complex?) and they operate in a large group making them very unpredictable and super aggressive. This is my perception, my reality and it would reflect in the way I behave in any future encounter especially with them.

 

[RunninInGA]

I totally agree. The specifics as to the why, I am sure that's where the discussion can take many directions.

The statistics referenced above don't consider the race of the policing force or whether it reflects the community being policed. I think this is relevant and I link it to my personal experiences. When I operated my business, I was personally robbed 6 times, 4 times successfully and twice unsuccessfully. The racial make up of the perps, twice by whites, three times by blacks and once by Tamils....all males, of course. The event that would likely shape any future encounter for me would be the one with the Tamils. Small males with something to prove (napoleon complex?) and they operate in a large group making them very unpredictable and super aggressive. This is my perception, my reality and it would reflect in the way I behave in any future encounter especially with them.

Those little guys? C'mon man!?!?

 

[1engineer]

I totally agree. The specifics as to the why, I am sure that's where the discussion can take many directions.

The statistics referenced above don't consider the race of the policing force or whether it reflects the community being policed. I think this is relevant and I link it to my personal experiences. When I operated my business, I was personally robbed 6 times, 4 times successfully and twice unsuccessfully. The racial make up of the perps, twice by whites, three times by blacks and once by Tamils....all males, of course. The event that would likely shape any future encounter for me would be the one with the Tamils. Small males with something to prove (napoleon complex?) and they operate in a large group making them very unpredictable and super aggressive. This is my perception, my reality and it would reflect in the way I behave in any future encounter especially with them.

I gotta ask... what is a Tamil?

 

[Hepar]

Which brings us to the next question, why are a disproportionate number of violent crimes committed by black people? Are black people just inherently more violent, or are there other societal (systemic) issues that are contributing factors?

Like I said in my previous statement, the biggest factor (in my opinion) is not race, but poverty level. Which again, inevitably becomes race due to our history.

That is incorrect, and that simplistic way was the way I was looking at it. Here is an excerpt from my first link: (I marked the relevant sections in bold)


Here are the results of that comparison for 2015.

For every 10,000 white people arrested for a violent crime, 38 white people were killed by police (± 2).
For every 10,000 hispanic people arrested for a violent crime, 21 hispanic people were killed by police (± 3).
For every 10,000 black people arrested for a violent crime, 21 black people were killed by police (± 2).

Go figure … I was as surprised as you, so I’ve triple checked the numbers, and it’s true—the odds of a given arrest going bad and ending up in a death are much greater for white men than for black or hispanic men.

Please note that this result says nothing about the existence of racist police officers in America. [/B]Sadly, while the situation is immensely better than in my youth, we know that there are still far too many racists in the US … including in the police forces.

And it says nothing about racist policing in America. Again the beneficial changes in my lifetime have been huge, but there still remain any number of places where DWB is often a crime, and jurisdictions where people of color are regularly harassed and stopped by police.

Are there unjustified killings among the Washington Post data? You can be certain there are, it is a rare but real issue. Is there more work to be done? Assuredly. But the Post data doesn’t and can’t answer those questions."

Please go back and re read the first link.

Sorry. It was another poor attempt at sarcasm and the point of us often times relying on statistics and how we can use them to serve our needs. I keep doing that. My issue is that I'm super sarcastic (probably to a fault) in real life, so it also automatically comes out in my responses here. I blame it on responding when tired. I'll never learn. Maybe if I add emoties?

Statistics are good, but I believe in this case, they can never show or explain all of the other variables that are in play. Slight tangent, but a good book is a book called How to Lie with Statistics. I recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

And you do point out the same above, which I do appreciate. In response to one of your statements, "Please note that this result says nothing about the existence of racist police officers in America. [/B]Sadly, while the situation is immensely better than in my youth, we know that there are still far too many racists in the US … including in the police forces." I also agree that racism is still alive and well. But I honestly believe that it is SO hard (as I sort of went into in my previous statement) for even those individuals who go into the police force with the best heart and intentions to not become effected by what they see on a daily basis.

*edit* Just noticed that the above response was to a quote in the article, not from you. I need to learn to not be sarcastic through text. You need to use quotation marks more. :cheers:

 

[ThorInc]

I gotta ask... what is a Tamil?

You seriously don't want me to describe what a Tamil is, lol. Google would likely be unbiased.

 

[1engineer]

Like I said in my previous statement, the biggest factor (in my opinion) is not race, but poverty level. Which again, inevitably becomes race due to our history.



Sorry. It was another poor attempt at sarcasm and the point of us often times relying on statistics and how we can use them to serve our needs. I keep doing that. My issue is that I'm super sarcastic (probably to a fault) in real life, so it also automatically comes out in my responses here. I blame it on responding when tired. I'll never learn. Maybe if I add emoties?

Statistics are good, but I believe in this case, they can never show or explain all of the other variables that are in play. Slight tangent, but a good book is a book called How to Lie with Statistics. I recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

And you do point out the same above, which I do appreciate. In response to one of your statements, "Please note that this result says nothing about the existence of racist police officers in America. [/B]Sadly, while the situation is immensely better than in my youth, we know that there are still far too many racists in the US … including in the police forces." I also agree that racism is still alive and well. But I honestly believe that it is SO hard (as I sort of went into in my previous statement) for even those individuals who go into the police force with the best heart and intentions to not become effected by what they see on a daily basis.

*edit* Just noticed that the above response was to a quote in the article, not from you. I need to learn to not be sarcastic through text. You need to use quotation marks more. :cheers:

I am sarcastic to a fault with the sense of humor of Steven Wright...
I could have wrote the book on how to lie with Statistics. I work in that world every day.

My whole point is black people are not getting killed at a higher rate than anyone else and that is what groups like BLM are promoting. I totally agree that there is still racial problems but I contend that it is more profiling than anything else (right or wrong) when it comes to law enforcement.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

I won't quote a single/specific post, but a few have said let's admit and address a problem.

The real problem needing to be addressed is lack of training in most agencies due to lack of funding for said training.

People think that you get a badge and then you automatically get trained to be a superhero or something. That's just not the case.

Most departments just don't have the funds to properly train folks to handle complex/violent interactions.

The use of force continuum can be very complicated given the split seconds most have to make decisions and act on them to save their life or the lives of others.

Our nature/environment will form our responses. That's just how it works. So LEO's that work high crime areas with higher than average violent interactions are responding to their environment.

So- knowing that black men are much more likely to commit violent crime, much more likely to resist arrest and much more likely to shoot at police can greatly affect ones response and molds ones reactions.

The good thing about NOT having a federal police force (Like in Canada and many other parts of the world) is that the police are local to the community the serve/work in. They live there, they have family there, they have friends there they interact with daily and are a big part of the community outside of their policing. THAT IS A GREAT THING!

When you have a federalized police force, they have less ties to their communities, being stationed here and there for 3-5 year periods and then moving on. They are more likely to not form bonds within the community and their policing will reflect that.

If you look at the stats,more black officers shoot black people than white officers shoot black people. But that isn't the focus of the media, this administration or the BLM type crowd. They focus on one pigment versus another and in a very narrow view.

Every police department takes racism, sexism and discrimination VERY seriously. When problems arise they take care of it based on the standards and procedures set forth in their departments.

Being and LEO is complicated, I work and talk with a lot of them on a daily basis.

Having to decide how to react to a potentially violent and life threatening situation is tough. VERY tough. But THEY signed up for it knowing full well the dangers and need to train, train, train to get better at it. Most LEO's I know spend their own time and money on additional training not provided by their departments, both to serve their community better and to protect themselves and others better.

At the end of the day, we are all human, we all make mistakes. Sine LEO's are in a role of authority, those mistakes are magnified to the tenth degree- as well they should be. But let's not throw ALL LEO's under the bus just because a few have hatred and/or evil int heir hearts.

That would be the same thing as throwing all black people under the bus for the crime statistics blacks generate- it's flat out wrong.

Judge the individual.

I have met and interacted with my fair share of dick LEO's. It sucks and it gives such a bad impression and leaves a terrible taste in ones mouth.

LEO's do have issues they need to work on, gaining the trust of their communities through positive interactions and outreach programs. Not going from 0-100 and being *******s. A smile and a good attitude go a long way on both sides.

Non LEO's have these issues as well, and should also work on fixing them.

The fact is we need our communities to be policed and we need to trust each other.

It's interesting how the media will 24/7 report on negative aspects, but give slight lip service to positive aspects. Be it LE, religion, guns, politics, etc. The 4th pillar of democracy has been corrupted and no longer reports the news/facts and leaves interpretation and formulation of opinions up to the observer. They vomit opinions, spew false info, push agendas and foment divide in any way shape and form they can. Don't fall for the rhetoric.


Now to the bigger issue in all of this. Division. We are being divided by radicals and extremists on both sides (They are really just different sides of the same coin) in the media, in our communities, on internet boards like this one and from the federal government.

Ask yourself why would the media and government want to drive wedges between LEO/Citizens, Black/White, Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives, Hetero/Homo, Christian/Muslim, etc, etc, etc.

It's control. It is so very easy for Governments to control folks who are fighting among themselves. So easy to get them to give up their liberty and freedom in trade for a false sense and promise of safety. When they can get X group to fear Y group- they can pretty much do whatever they want and use the fear of both groups against them.

Why would the President make a speech and offer an opinion of "Racism" about a shooting that hasn't even been investigated? That's called an agenda. Why would the media PUSH so hard these agendas without all of the facts? And then when they have the facts, it's just a little blurb and on to the next fear inducing and divide fomenting story.

Watch my left hand, not my right hand. Stoke the flames of racial divide, political divide, religious divide, etc and you can keep people distracted from what's going on behind the curtains- what truly has long lasting and devastating affects.

Look to history for the answers. Governments ALWAYS corrupt and seek to control people, control every aspect of their lives. It has happened over and over again throughout history. It is a pattern that must be recognized, understood and dealt with.

 

[ThorInc]

I won't quote a single/specific post, but a few have said let's admit and address a problem.

The real problem needing to be addressed is lack of training in most agencies due to lack of funding for said training.

People think that you get a badge and then you automatically get trained to be a superhero or something. That's just not the case.

Most departments just don't have the funds to properly train folks to handle complex/violent interactions.

The use of force continuum can be very complicated given the split seconds most have to make decisions and act on them to save their life or the lives of others.

Our nature/environment will form our responses. That's just how it works. So LEO's that work high crime areas with higher than average violent interactions are responding to their environment.

So- knowing that black men are much more likely to commit violent crime, much more likely to resist arrest and much more likely to shoot at police can greatly affect ones response and molds ones reactions.

The good thing about NOT having a federal police force (Like in Canada and many other parts of the world) is that the police are local to the community the serve/work in. They live there, they have family there, they have friends there they interact with daily and are a big part of the community outside of their policing. THAT IS A GREAT THING!

When you have a federalized police force, they have less ties to their communities, being stationed here and there for 3-5 year periods and then moving on. They are more likely to not form bonds within the community and their policing will reflect that.

If you look at the stats,more black officers shoot black people than white officers shoot black people. But that isn't the focus of the media, this administration or the BLM type crowd. They focus on one pigment versus another and in a very narrow view.

Every police department takes racism, sexism and discrimination VERY seriously. When problems arise they take care of it based on the standards and procedures set forth in their departments.

Being and LEO is complicated, I work and talk with a lot of them on a daily basis.

Having to decide how to react to a potentially violent and life threatening situation is tough. VERY tough. But THEY signed up for it knowing full well the dangers and need to train, train, train to get better at it. Most LEO's I know spend their own time and money on additional training not provided by their departments, both to serve their community better and to protect themselves and others better.

At the end of the day, we are all human, we all make mistakes. Sine LEO's are in a role of authority, those mistakes are magnified to the tenth degree- as well they should be. But let's not throw ALL LEO's under the bus just because a few have hatred and/or evil int heir hearts.

That would be the same thing as throwing all black people under the bus for the crime statistics blacks generate- it's flat out wrong.

Judge the individual.

I have met and interacted with my fair share of dick LEO's. It sucks and it gives such a bad impression and leaves a terrible taste in ones mouth.

LEO's do have issues they need to work on, gaining the trust of their communities through positive interactions and outreach programs. Not going from 0-100 and being *******s. A smile and a good attitude go a long way on both sides.

Non LEO's have these issues as well, and should also work on fixing them.

The fact is we need our communities to be policed and we need to trust each other.

It's interesting how the media will 24/7 report on negative aspects, but give slight lip service to positive aspects. Be it LE, religion, guns, politics, etc. The 4th pillar of democracy has been corrupted and no longer reports the news/facts and leaves interpretation and formulation of opinions up to the observer. They vomit opinions, spew false info, push agendas and foment divide in any way shape and form they can. Don't fall for the rhetoric.


Now to the bigger issue in all of this. Division. We are being divided by radicals and extremists on both sides (They are really just different sides of the same coin) in the media, in our communities, on internet boards like this one and from the federal government.

Ask yourself why would the media and government want to drive wedges between LEO/Citizens, Black/White, Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives, Hetero/Homo, Christian/Muslim, etc, etc, etc.

It's control. It is so very easy for Governments to control folks who are fighting among themselves. So easy to get them to give up their liberty and freedom in trade for a false sense and promise of safety. When they can get X group to fear Y group- they can pretty much do whatever they want and use the fear of both groups against them.

Why would the President make a speech and offer an opinion of "Racism" about a shooting that hasn't even been investigated? That's called an agenda. Why would the media PUSH so hard these agendas without all of the facts? And then when they have the facts, it's just a little blurb and on to the next fear inducing and divide fomenting story.

Watch my left hand, not my right hand. Stoke the flames of racial divide, political divide, religious divide, etc and you can keep people distracted from what's going on behind the curtains- what truly has long lasting and devastating affects.

Look to history for the answers. Governments ALWAYS corrupt and seek to control people, control every aspect of their lives. It has happened over and over again throughout history. It is a pattern that must be recognized, understood and dealt with.

I agree with most of this but will say that political agendas and stoking of divisional flames is partisan, divide and conquer works extremely well.

Even thought the RCMP is a federal and national force, most direct policing in Canada is done by local community police( you can say regional if you like). So we actually have both but yes, certain areas local policing is contracted out to the RCMP. Some native reserves also have their own police.

 

[Yukon4Runner]

certain areas local policing is contracted out to the RCMP.

Certain areas?

The Mounties police 8 provinces, 3 territories, 150 cities and 600 native reserves.

If you live outside of Quebec and Ontario in a town or city of less than 100,000, the odds are pretty good that when you call 911 it's Dudley Do-Right showing up.

 

[Hepar]

I am sarcastic to a fault with the sense of humor of Steven Wright...
I could have wrote the book on how to lie with Statistics. I work in that world every day.

My whole point is black people are not getting killed at a higher rate than anyone else and that is what groups like BLM are promoting. I totally agree that there is still racial problems but I contend that it is more profiling than anything else (right or wrong) when it comes to law enforcement.

I 100% agree that the issue is more profiling and treatment than the actual death rate. I feel that was the original message of some of the first BLM movements, but has unfortunately been lost.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

I agree with most of this but will say that political agendas and stoking of divisional flames is partisan, divide and conquer works extremely well.

Even thought the RCMP is a federal and national force, most direct policing in Canada is done by local community police( you can say regional if you like). So we actually have both but yes, certain areas local policing is contracted out to the RCMP. Some native reserves also have their own police.

There are ways D's divide and ways R's divide and there are ways both R's and D's work together to divide.

Politicians are a scummy breed.

How many times has an independent (Individual or group) come along (Regardless of if they lean left or right) and both parties start to work lock step together to shut them down and marginalize them?

At the bureaucratic level, they are all consolidating power and money. They work the same system and play the same games against the constituency to gain power and money.

How many times has a politician promised to do X or Y to get voted in and then they just go along with the status quo? Ignoring their constituents and instead being controlled by $$$ and power.

Yes, both parties divide and conquer, but they also work together to divide and conquer on a whole other level entirely.

 

[nevada]

I gotta ask... what is a Tamil?

this. wtf is that?

I 100% agree that the issue is more profiling and treatment than the actual death rate. I feel that was the original message of some of the first BLM movements, but has unfortunately been lost.

HANDS UP, DONT SHOOT!

the thing that kicked off this entire mess, turns out to be false....

There are ways D's divide and ways R's divide and there are ways both R's and D's work together to divide.

Politicians are a scummy breed.

How many times has an independent (Individual or group) come along (Regardless of if they lean left or right) and both parties start to work lock step together to shut them down and marginalize them?

At the bureaucratic level, they are all consolidating power and money. They work the same system and play the same games against the constituency to gain power and money.

How many times has a politician promised to do X or Y to get voted in and then they just go along with the status quo? Ignoring their constituents and instead being controlled by $$$ and power.

Yes, both parties divide and conquer, but they also work together to divide and conquer on a whole other level entirely.

trump...

 

[Yukon4Runner]

I gotta ask... what is a Tamil?

Canada has very open borders...this was a key to the multi-culturalism platform of the Liberal Party of Canada that took off in the 70s under Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

The Tamils are a group from Sri Lanka, many of whom settled as immigrants mostly in the Vancouver area in the later 20th century. Unfortunately, some of the conflict from their home country has spilled into Canada with the Tamil Tiger terrorist group.

As many countries in the Western world are discovering, while most immigrants are hard working decent people, you get more than interesting dishes and unique dance festivals from newcomers. Sometimes the crap they left comes with them.

 

[jeremyc74]

Canada has very open borders...this was a key to the multi-culturalism platform of the Liberal Party of Canada that took off in the 70s under Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

The Tamils are a group from Sri Lanka, many of whom settled as immigrants mostly in the Vancouver area in the later 20th century. Unfortunately, some of the conflict from their home country has spilled into Canada with the Tamil Tiger terrorist group.

As many countries in the Western world are discovering, while most immigrants are hard working decent people, you get more than interesting dishes and unique dance festivals from newcomers. Sometimes the crap they left comes with them.

We have that same issue with Haitians. A couple of the most violent gangs in S. FL are Haitians. They risk their lives coming here for a better future, and then create the same kind of conditions that exist in the shithole they were trying to escape from.

 

[ndcent]

The common misconception that being anti-police brutality equates to being anti-police is especially problematic in these discussions.

 

[Yukon4Runner]

Some "hug a thug" type is bound to mention that other immigrant groups in history had criminals among them; Irish gangs in the 19th century, Italian mob in the early 20th century, etc and this is all true.

The difference is there was no pc whiny "let's find out why they are choosing a life of crime" and build a basketball court solutions.

It was hard time when they were caught.

 

[RunninInGA]

The common misconception that being anti-police brutality equates to being anti-police is especially problematic in these discussions.

How would you solve the problem? What steps would you take?

 

[ndcent]

How would you solve the problem? What steps would you take?

Casual reminders like the one I just offered might help but surely won't solve it. There isn't a solution for people that hold onto those kinds of preconceived notions that I'm aware of.

 

[Yukon4Runner]

The common misconception that being anti-police brutality equates to being anti-police is especially problematic in these discussions.

The misconception here is that police are going around beating the living snot out of everybody.

I'm guessing you are a believer in micro-aggressions.

If a law enforcement officer doesn't say "pretty please with ice cream on top, may I see your drivers license" while adopting a Barney posture, you can always give him a poor review on Yelp. No need or file a complaint with a civilian review board.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

The common misconception that being anti-police brutality equates to being anti-police is especially problematic in these discussions.

I've never met anyone who was PRO police brutality. Do those people actually exist? Have you ever spoken to someone who is FOR police brutally beating or murdering people?

The other misconception that is common in these discussion is that any black man killed by a white officer=RACISM regardless of the facts specific to the situation.

When the investigation is conducted and the facts come out showing that it was a good shoot, people just scream, SYSTEMIC RACISM!

When it comes out it was a bad shoot, the LEO's get prosecuted. Many times they do not receive sentences as stiff as they should and as stiff as anyone else who wasn't an LEO would have gotten and I would like to see that change also, but they are being held accountable when facts point to a bad shoot.

So what are we to do, just put good cops in jail because popular opinion wants it, when the facts don't support the actions being criminal, negligent, etc. and point to it being an objectively reasonable action?

Take the "Hands up don't shoot" episode. That was shown to be BS, a lie and the shoot was good- no one had their hands up and got shot, they were attacking the police officer and got shot. But still people want "accountability" for the "racist actions" of the LEO "murdering" that poor fellow...it's maddening.

So what do you see as the specific problem and specific solution in all of this?

Are there cases of police brutality- you betcha and it is abhorrent and should be dealt with swiftly and justly. Sometimes LEO's get a pass for bad behavior for various reasons (Not enough evidence, other bad cops covering for them and so on) and that is wrong.

No system is perfect, no person is perfect. There are mistakes, there are F-ups, there are human errors.

We have the BEST damn justice system in the world. It is far from perfect and can suck really bad sometimes, but it's the best one in the world.

We incarcerate too many people for petty offenses and let bad people out too easily and they usually commit crimes again and again in/out of jail wash rinse repeat, but that comes down to DA's, judges and jury's most of the time, not the police.

There are changes that should absolutely be made to our criminal justice system, for instance I am against the war on drugs and wish it to be abolished. It costs billions and is a big business on both sides of the war- But that takes time and a lot of work to accomplish. Just like any other change in a dynamic system with hundreds of thousands of players and multiple agencies and tiers of bureaucracy.

This time right now in history is one of the easiest and most peaceful times in all of our known history- that doesn't mean we should just stop trying to make it better and improve our collective well being, but it also means we should NOT take it for granted and have proper perspective.


When I see a BLM crowd yelling "KILL THE POLICE" or "WHITE PIGS MUST DIE!" I do not see a movement that wants to stop racism- I see them stoking the flames of racism.

When I see preachers saying "GOD DAMN WHITE AMERICA" at a BLM protest I do not hear a message of peace or equality.