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I see this
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Yes I clicked the link and got a subscribe thing as well from here.

I found another article on zerohedge
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-14/mexico-builds-wall-and-guess-who-paid-it

Link and quoted it

"Mexico is building a 'wall'... on its southern border (to keep illegal immigrants out). Perhaps even more ironic, The FT notes that the Obama administration is coy about its role in Mexico’s crackdown but is sending $75m in equipment and training to help stop Central Americans from crossing illegally into Mexico... in other words, US Taxpayers funded a Mexican wall to keep immigrants out.





The UN estimates 400,000 Central Americans cross illegally into Mexico each year and as many as half of those are fleeing violence. But as The FT reports, Mexico already acts as a formidable barrier for many...

Zero net immigration of Mexicans into the US and an 82 per cent fall in people caught trying to cross the US-Mexico border in the past 10 years means that most would-be immigrants detained there are Central Americans. Even without Mr Trump’s fortress frontier, Mexico finds itself under increasing pressure to stem the migrant tide near its source — its own southern border.

“Mexico has become a wall for migrants,” said Sister Magdalena Silva, co-ordinator of Cafemin, a privately run shelter in Mexico City that takes in refugee families, including Rosa’s. “The current policy is to arrest migrants to stop them from getting to the US border.”

...

Unlike in the US, Mexico has broadened asylum laws to recognise that fleeing violence of the kind practised by the street gangs of Honduras and El Salvador can classify someone as a refugee. But the odds are still stacked against asylum seekers: Mexico deported a record 175,000 Central Americans last year, up 68 per cent from the previous year and nearly two-and-a-half times the number deported by the US.



“By the end of the year we estimate we could have as many as 8,100 individuals seeking asylum in Mexico,” almost all from Central America, says José Sieber, the head of protection in Mexico for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. That is more than double last year’s number.

Finally, and perhaps interestingly, guess who is funding this 'wall' of deportation...


The US is coy about its role in Mexico’s crackdown but is sending $75m in equipment and training to help stop Central Americans from crossing illegally into Mexico.

Hosting Mr Trump two weeks ago, President Enrique Peña Nieto said that “making Mexico’s border with our friends and neighbours in Central America more secure is of vital importance for Mexico and the US”.
Physical wall or legal wall... it appears Mexico agrees with Donald Trump that better walls make better neighbors... we just wonder what he thinks about Americans paying for it."

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That disagrees with the actual figures from the link I posted earlier showing that in 2011 there were 11,101 homicides committed with guns and only 1,824 gang related shootings.




What?

Where are you getting these numbers?




Lethality rates of suicide attempts are significantly higher for guns than other methods. Studies have also shown that people who survive a suicide attempt have high rates of recovery. So no, I don't think its reasonable to make that assumption.



Right, but as the numbers I posted above would suggest, gang related killings aren't a high percentage of gun related homicides.
maybe it has to do with what they classify as a "gang shooting"?
because im pretty sure Chicago alone has more than 1800. I bet they have double that....
 
That disagrees with the actual figures from the link I posted earlier showing that in 2011 there were 11,101 homicides committed with guns and only 1,824 gang related shootings.




What?

Where are you getting these numbers?




Lethality rates of suicide attempts are significantly higher for guns than other methods. Studies have also shown that people who survive a suicide attempt have high rates of recovery. So no, I don't think its reasonable to make that assumption.



Right, but as the numbers I posted above would suggest, gang related killings aren't a high percentage of gun related homicides.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

https://ucr.fbi.gov/ucr

http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/gun-stats-perspective.htm


It's interesting you talk about suicide & lethality- Canada has a higher suicide rate than the USA (Not by much though). But heavier gun restrictions. So does Japan, France, Greenland and Germany- ALL places where guns are heavily restricted if not outright impossible to get unless you are a criminal of course...

If people want to kill themselves, they do it. Regardless of the tool used. Much like if people want to murder others- they do it regardless of the tool used.

Japan has nearly twice the rate of suicide, and very few gun deaths compared to the USA- one should deduce that there is a cultural difference here, and guns have nothing to do with it.

More children are killed by drowning in pools each year than by guns-- should we start banning pools? Heck- guns have the ability to save lives and protect people, but pools don't- gotta get rid of those evil pools if it would just save one life!

Medicine that is left out by parents, chemicals not properly stored, cars and household tools each respectively injure and kill far more children than guns, so should we ban them all as well?

What I am getting at is the OBVIOUS and ridiculous bias people view guns with when they are against them. It is an object, a tool- nothing more.

Blame the people using them for violence/murder. Blame the parents who do not have the sense to store them properly and allow their kids to have access to them. Blame the mental disorders people have that drive them to do evil things.

But don't blame the object they use and don't hold other people who are responsible with these objects accountable for someone else's crimes/negligence/disease of the mind.

Look, in the USA we have more guns than we have people! IF "GUNS" were to blame, really the problem and merely the presence of a gun equated to murder then people would be dropping like flies, we'd have millions of gun deaths a year and millions more suicides if that correlation were true, but it just ISN'T! More guns does not equal more deaths.

Obviously a country with more guns will have more gun related stuff happening.

Just like Florida is going to have more pool related deaths than say Alaska.

California is going to have more shark related deaths than Colorado.

Etc...

Please put the info into perspective, more lives are saved each year by the presence of guns than are taken. More women are able to fend off rape each year by using a gun than are raped each year by a criminal forcing them to with a gun.

Even if you take HuffPo as gospel and say only 1,800 (approx) gun deaths a year are attributed to gangs, those stats are not correct, but I'll just play devils advocate and pretend they are- GUNS STILL PLAY A ROLE IN SAVING FAR MORE PEOPLE THAN THEY DO IN KILLING PEOPLE!!!!!

But that's never discussed among the anti-gun folks. And every time I've posted stats and references, crickets...

Gun Facts | Gun Control and Crime in non-US Countries

Guns in America | Facts and statistics about firearms in the USA


And then there is the elephant in the room no one wants to admit exists- per capita race/demographics statistics that go along with gun crime and gun deaths- no anti-gun folks want to discuss this either...

I will posit again, and all of the raw data that hasn't been manipulated to support an anti-gun agenda supports it. We do not have a gun problem, we have a mental health problem and a cultural/socioeconomic problem.

Heck, one only needs to look at places like Chicago, and specific counties (Cook county anyone) as a microcosm for what I am talking about. Chicago has HEAVY gun restriction in place- yet gun deaths and gun crime are WELL ABOVE the national average. Why would this be? Maybe the culture of Chicago? If you want to just focus on guns only when discussing Chicago and it's crime rate, then wouldn't you have to come to the conclusion that less guns equals more crime? Or would you look at other factors and see the reality of the situation?

And then you can look further- outside of the country and see places like Brazil- where 5 cities have gun death and gun crime rates even higher than Chicago. But they heavily restrict gun ownership. HMMMMMM.
 
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I'll leave these here for those interested:

http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

http://jpfo.org/pdf03/gun-facts-7.0-screen.pdf

The Seven Varieties of Gun Control Advocate

Why the gun is civilization.

JFPO is a great organization and they don't hold back. Because their history is so intimately intertwined with the evils of gun control, they tell it how it is and back it up with raw data.

Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths

GunCite: gun control and Second Amendment issues

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#ix

And here's some Chicago Specific links:

Shootings -- Crime in Chicagoland -- chicagotribune.com

2016 Stats | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!

Crime in Chicagoland -- chicagotribune.com

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/il/chicago/crime/



Here's a visual:
infographic.jpg


Sources (EDITED/updated to provide up to date mirror/PDF links to the cited sources in info graphic):

Guns in America | Facts and statistics about firearms in the USA

1) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-cdc-gov.pdf

2) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Arme...0Self-Defe.pdf

3) Http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Guns... control.pdf

4) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Arme...0Self-Defe.pdf

5) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-ncjrs-gov.pdf

6) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Smal...nnexe-4-EN.pdf

7) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/GSH2...-territory.pdf

8) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Vol3...useronline.pdf

9) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-telegraph-co-uk.pdf
http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-dailymail-co-uk.pdf

10) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/news-bbc-co-uk.pdf

11) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-wsj-com.pdf

12) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-usatoday-com.pdf

13) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-bls-gov.pdf

14) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/jim-com.pdf

15) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-examiner-com.pdf

16) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/nejm199402033300523.pdf

17) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/statisticbrain_com.pdf

18) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Crim...rmed-Force.pdf

19) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/cityrating_com.pdf
 
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Gunslinger-13 said:
Sources:

2010 CDC Report. FastStats - Injuries
Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995): http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/kleckandgertz1.htm
Guns in the United States ? Firearms, gun law and gun control
Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185
U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985): 27.
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...nnexe-4-EN.pdf
"Homicide Statistics 2012". UNODC.
Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694). Volume 30, Number 2: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf
http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...f-Europe.html; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html
BBC NEWS | Health | Doctors' kitchen knives ban call
More Guns, Less Violent Crime - WSJ
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...-lott/1791085/
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/protective-se...detectives.htm
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...f-cowards.html
The Latest on AXS
Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.
Statistic Brain ? Market Research, Rankings, Financials, Percentages
Gary Kleck, "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force," Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15
http://www.cityrating.com/crime-stat...l#.UO5soYnjkz4

Over half of those links are dead
 
Over half of those links are dead

I posted quite a few other links as well. Did you go look at those?

The following mirror/PDF links are numbered in reference to the cited sources in the info graphic I posted above.

Here you go:

Guns in America | Facts and statistics about firearms in the USA

1) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-cdc-gov.pdf

2) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Arm...e- The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defe.pdf

3) Http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Guns in the United States — Firearms, gun law and gun control.pdf

4) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Arm...e- The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defe.pdf

5) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-ncjrs-gov.pdf

6) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-annexe-4-EN.pdf

7) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/GSH2013_Homicide_count_and_rate country-territory.pdf

8) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

9) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-telegraph-co-uk.pdf
http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-dailymail-co-uk.pdf

10) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/news-bbc-co-uk.pdf

11) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-wsj-com.pdf

12) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-usatoday-com.pdf

13) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-bls-gov.pdf

14) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/jim-com.pdf

15) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/www-examiner-com.pdf

16) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/nejm199402033300523.pdf

17) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/statisticbrain_com.pdf

18) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/Crime-Control-through-the-Private-Use-of-Armed-Force.pdf

19) http://americangunfacts.com/pdf/cityrating_com.pdf
 
You mean like "the seven types of gun control advocate" : laugh:

I was most interested in the Harvard study. Things that come from sites that are obviously pro gun (it's right in their name) aren't exactly impartial.
 
You mean like "the seven types of gun control advocate" : laugh:

I was most interested in the Harvard study. Things that come from sites that are obviously pro gun (it's right in their name) aren't exactly impartial.

just in general, FACTs cannot be impartial. they simply ARE.
 
You mean like "the seven types of gun control advocate" : laugh:

I was most interested in the Harvard study. Things that come from sites that are obviously pro gun (it's right in their name) aren't exactly impartial.

I found the "Seven types of gun control advocates" article to be interesting, it is a side bar link for others who may like to read it, it has nothing to do with the raw data I posted links to that literally shred to pieces just about every "fact" anti-gun folks spout on a daily basis.

So you obviously didn't go and read any of them then. They aren't directly from "American gun facts" website. They are mirror/PDF links from that web site. As many of the links have expired.

If you would have gone to the site yourself you could have seen that, but since you didn't I provided PDF's of each article cited in the info-graphic I posted. Each PDF originates from "Americangunfacts.com" but they are all of different origins from a broad range of sources.

The BBC, Telegraph, USA Today, CDC, FBI, US Dept of Justice, National institute of justice, etc- wouldn't consider any of them "pro gun"...

But hey, if you would have actually read any of them you would know that...

Why not go and read the studies? Why not debate and comment on the stats, on the raw data?

I posted a plethora of studies, data and information from such a broad range of sources, it should be easy for anyone to see that it isn't just a bunch of fluff coming from one side or the other- it is peer reviewed raw statistical data.

Take a look.

Took me all of 2 seconds to find the Harvard article/study for you: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

If you really wanted to see just that one, I'm sure your google-Fu would have prevailed.

Read it, it's informative.
 
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All of a sudden 'facts are facts'?

When I posted them you guys immediately discredited them as being doctored.

The problem I have with a lot of those sources is that they seem to be comparing areas with guns, to areas without guns and not considering what most reasonable people have been advocating, which is better gun control not outright banning guns.

The Harvard study even cites Canada as a country with high gun ownership but lower homicide rates. As I've said before, could it be because we have stricter gun laws and restrictions on hand guns and fully automatic weapons?
 
All of a sudden 'facts are facts'?

When I posted them you guys immediately discredited them as being doctored.

The problem I have with a lot of those sources is that they seem to be comparing areas with guns, to areas without guns and not considering what most reasonable people have been advocating, which is better gun control not outright banning guns.

The Harvard study even cites Canada as a country with high gun ownership but lower homicide rates. As I've said before, could it be because we have stricter gun laws and restrictions on hand guns and fully automatic weapons?

Wait, so they're manipulating statistics in order to *gasp* suit an agenda? No way!

And yes, both sides do it. People hold strongly onto factual numbers and anything that they can possibly project.
 
All of a sudden 'facts are facts'?

When I posted them you guys immediately discredited them as being doctored.

The problem I have with a lot of those sources is that they seem to be comparing areas with guns, to areas without guns and not considering what most reasonable people have been advocating, which is better gun control not outright banning guns.

The Harvard study even cites Canada as a country with high gun ownership but lower homicide rates. As I've said before, could it be because we have stricter gun laws and restrictions on hand guns and fully automatic weapons?
what does better gun control look like?


Chicago has some of the strongest gun laws, yet they lead the country in gun related violence.

I don't know your laws up there, do you know ours? it doesn't sound like it.
we already have restrictions on full automatic weapons. and on that topic, since you brought it up, when was the last mass shooting or crime committed with a full auto? how many in the last 20 years?

we have mass restrictions across the board in regards to guns. but what good does that do when criminals don't give **** about laws? THAT is what makes them criminals...

so suddenly these "common sense" gun laws make it harder for a law abiding citizen to defend himself, but does NOTHING to prevent the criminal from being a criminal. in fact those kinds of laws make it EASIER for the criminals..
 
what does better gun control look like?


Chicago has some of the strongest gun laws, yet they lead the country in gun related violence.

It's also less than an hr away from Indiana and under 2 hrs away from Wisconsin. Both with different gun laws than in Chicago.
 
It's also less than an hr away from Indiana and under 2 hrs away from Wisconsin. Both with different gun laws than in Chicago.


Exactly. For any legislation to have any meaningful effect it has to be applied everywhere. Its obviously quite easy to just travel outside of a restriction zone and acquire a weapon.
 
On an unrelated note.

Drove to Calgary and back this week to write an exam.

Took this pic of the 4Runner in Yoho National park.

IMG_1642%201_zpsderhhg8z.jpg~original
 
Exactly. For any legislation to have any meaningful effect it has to be applied everywhere. Its obviously quite easy to just travel outside of a restriction zone and acquire a weapon.

nope. not going to let that happen.

answer the questions I asked, and address my response above.
 
It's also less than an hr away from Indiana and under 2 hrs away from Wisconsin. Both with different gun laws than in Chicago.

using your logic, those places should have worse gun violence than Chicago, but do they?
 
using your logic, those places should have worse gun violence than Chicago, but do they?

I see where you are trying to go with this, but it's simply not a valid argument. My point is that you cannot use a place like Chicago (or any other place with "strict" gun laws) as an example of those laws not working when you can go in either direction (and actually three if you crossed the lake to Michigan) to places where the laws are different. If we had borders that required more strict passage between like Canada and Mexico, then I feel you could make a more valid argument.
 
It's also less than an hr away from Indiana and under 2 hrs away from Wisconsin. Both with different gun laws than in Chicago.



See I can't understand how this makes a difference. We know handguns are are the number one firearm for crime. So let's say we put strict restrictions on all states. And let's pretend that all the now legal gun owners decide to register all their legal guns and go through all the proper background checks.

So how do we deal with criminals? Those that have never had the willingness to go through a background check because they know they will fail. All of their guns are illegally obtained.

So please answer the following questions if you can

How do we deal with the criminals that procure them illegally?

If they find out that even 1 illegally procured gun comes from outside the country do we build walls around the country?

If we find out if one was sent via a shipping service (FedEx,UPS,DHL,USPS). Do we search every package before it arrives?

If we find out that 1 firearm was stolen from a legal owner do we prosecute that owner of the firearm for not taking enough actions to secure their now stolen firearm?

And the final question. Let's just say we implement a massive gun measures. If they are not sixes full in reducing gun deaths by 70-80%. Would be in favor of repealing them?





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