Anything goes thread

[Gunslinger-13]

I provided multiple links. One of them was a rather large and comprehensive study. If you read and study those links you will find that they cite their sources at the end. There are dozens of them.

You obviously didn't look at my sources, nor did you make any attempt to address the facts presented by them. Instead you went quiet for a day or two and then came back in here posturing about how you had won the debate and converted the fence sitters.

Where did I state that I had won anything or converted anyone? I didn't- I merely answered the question I was posed.

I have found that presenting the amount of facts I do, with peer reviewed sources cited backing up my position works well at turning a logical mind to what the data and facts show. Never said I won anything or turned anyone.

I was merely referencing what I have done in the past and how it has been successful.


Maybe I missed something that you posted, I will go back and take a look, did you edit it immediately after posting, because what you posted I linked to and read and it was a few studies (Some of the same ones I posted TONS of links to) and one website on "gun deaths" totals and gun laws "maybe" having a correlation, not one they could quantify, but "it's there"...

ETA: I went back and looked at the links you provided. One does have a bit more info/sources cited. But it still does not extrapolate the data very well. Talking purely "Gun deaths" and "Gun homicides" is only part of the equation. We have to look at what TYPES of deaths they are. How are the guns being used and by whom- which is exactly why I posted so much data to show how many defensive shootings there are. How many times a gun is used to stop a woman from being raped.

When we look at the WHOLE picture- we see a few things that the anti-gun crowd isn't reporting on or discussing at all. How many times a gun is used to STOP a murder or a crime from being committed, and the overall violent crime rates.

OBVIOUSLY, a place with more guns is going to have more gun related incidents. I don't think anyone would be so foolish to argue against that point. Thus why I keep referencing HOW the guns are used and what types of deaths MATTERS.

A few reasons shooting deaths will be higher where more guns are:

1) Police shootings
2) Suicides
3) Accidents
4) Self Defense

Some of what the studies you link gets at is that firearms are used more in the USA and it "changes the outcome". Well no shit? It also has a drastic affect on changing the outcome for those of us who use guns legally!

Which goes again to what I have been saying over and over here- CULTURAL, SOCIOECONOMIC differences are at the root of our issues with homicide rates and overall violent crime. It's not the guns.

If you look at who in the USA is to blame for the majority of violent crime and the why behind it, instead of just focusing on the tools they use- we might get somewhere. We could actually find a way to limit all of this violence without infringing on the rights of those of us who do nothing to deserve being treated like criminals and who should not have to have our rights further limited or removed because of the few bad apples.

I doubt any of what I will say will have any affect on your opinions. And you can call me an idiot all you like, it's not changing the facts surrounding guns and violence in the world and it certainly isn't going to get me on your side.

For folks who are more emotional than logical- here's a little story about a family of anti-gunners who changed their minds and are now pro-gun because of a life changing incident involving their daughter in College. I lived this story. This story and other instances in my life and the lives around me is why I am such an ardent supporter of gun rights.

College town, late Saturday night I'm picking up friends from the bar, I'm their DD. I have my CCW permit and a gun. While waiting for my drunken buddies to get gyro sandwiches from a gyro cart I see a drunk girl being taken into an ally by two sober young Mexicans. I just saw them out of the corner of my eye and got a bad feeling in my stomach- it didn't look kosher at all.

So I call the cops, jump out of the truck and follow them slowly. They have the girl up against the wall between two dumpsters and are removing her pants, she is fighting them, but they are large and one is behind her with her in a head lock and the other in front removing pants.

I walk up, turn on a flash light on them and have my gun at the low and ready. I tell them to let go of the girl, put hand behind head and calmly lie on the ground, I tell them that I have a gun and will not hesitate to use it if they make aggressive movements towards me or the girl. Police still on the phone and en route.

The two guys immediately throw girl to the ground and walk towards me with weapons being drawn from pockets, a lead pipe and a knife come out. I aim gun directly at them and say stop, lie on the ground and throw your weapons away or I will be forced to defend myself.

I thank god every day that they did as I demanded, things could have gone so many ways and I am glad I didn't have to find out which way it would have gone had they continued to advance.

It took the police 20 minutes to arrive, those 20 minutes were some of the most tense minutes of my life, felt like an eternity. The amount of sweat and adrenaline my body was secreting was unbelievable.

So the girl is fine other than a few bruises on her neck, cuts to her knees and elbows and a really bad experience. I am in contact with her and her parents after the event and as the court case proceeds.

Turns out these dudes were being initiated into MS13, and there initiation was to gang rape a girl. They picked an easy target. And they would have been successful had I not been there to stop them.

I became friends with the girl and her family, naturally they were incredibly thankful. Up to this point in their lives they were incredibly anti-gun. We had a few conversations about guns and self defense. a few months after this incident they asked me to help them shop for/purchase guns and get into training courses. I still shoot with them once a year.

Guns are the great force multiplier. For woman, minorities, homosexuals- et al they can be the difference between a crazy experience and a story to tell or being raped, beaten severely or murdered.

Guns help to save more lives than they take, guns help to save so many woman from being raped. For all your reasons guns do harm, there are more reasons guns keep harm from being done.

 

[-JD-]

Again, go back and read what I posted. Not only does it address the fact that your 'studies' have been cherry picked by that pro-gun website because they reflect the most extreme sources of all the available information, but it also reiterates the idea that correlation does not equate causation. As they, and I, have said time and time again there simply isn't enough data (and thats intentional) at this point to prove causation.

It does address suicides, vs gang related, vs self defence, but it also admits that the methodology used to gather that data as well as the availability of that info is flawed/insufficient to be considered credible.

Also, you STILL seem to be arguing against a point that I'm not making. My position has never been that guns are bad and we need to ban them all. Despite repeatedly saying that you still seem to be arguing against that point with anecdotes of guns being used defensively...

 

[Gunslinger-13]

Again, go back and read what I posted. Not only does it address the fact that your 'studies' have been cherry picked by that pro-gun website because they reflect the most extreme sources of all the available information, but it also reiterates the idea that correlation does not equate causation. As they, and I, have said time and time again there simply isn't enough data (and thats intentional) at this point to prove causation.

It does address suicides, vs gang related, vs self defence, but it also admits that the methodology used to gather that data as well as the availability of that info is flawed/insufficient to be considered credible.

Also, you STILL seem to be arguing against a point that I'm not making. My position has never been that guns are bad and we need to ban them all. Despite repeatedly saying that you still seem to be arguing against that point with anecdotes of guns being used defensively...

My arguments are both against any new form of gun control and against banning anything or limiting capacity/etc.

The problem I have with folks calling for "Common sense" gun reform and "compromise" from us pro gun/rights folks, is that a lot of those same folks have been caught on tape stating that the "commons sense..." and "Gun control" verbiage is just a stepping stone and the ultimate goal is banning/confiscation.

Take Obama and Hilary for instance, they have both stated in the same sentence that they do not want to "ban" anything, and then go on to say they prefer Australian style gun control- well guess what the Australians increased gun control until they got to the point they had voluntary buy backs, then on to voluntary turn in periods and then onto involuntary confiscation.

Hilary has been caught on tape at her fundraisers literally saying that confiscation and outright banning firearms for anyone other than military or police is her goal.

DNC staffers have been caught on tape saying that calling for "common sense" gun reform is just a palatable way to get closer to the goal of banning them altogether.

It's not as if you or anyone in the anti-gun camp could put a few laws into place and then just stop there.

That's ridiculous, the anti-gunners have been pushing and pushing more and more laws at fed and state level forever. First ban machine guns, then ban imports, then get high capacity mag limits, then universal background checks, then registration, then ban certain types, etc, etc, etc.

The assault weapons ban did nothing to alleviate violent crime. Glad it set into the sun and folks can buy semi-automatic rifles again. It was nonsense legislation, and anti's are calling for it yet again. Why?

It's incredibly naive for me to believe for a second the anti-gun agenda would ever "Stop".

It's incredibly disingenuous for the anti-gun camp to keep pushing for more restrictions, more laws, more encumbrances to practice rights, and keep calling it a "Compromise" when there is nothing being given by one side, yet at the same time keep saying the pro gunners are the ones unwilling to budge, stuck in the stone age and are idiots for thinking that the anti's want to take our guns.

It's obvious to anyone paying attention that this is classic death by a thousand cuts. Frog in the pot of slowly boiling water.

So what exactly are you, JD- calling for as far as specific "gun control" you would like to see- in MY country? Please give me a point by point breakdown of what you want and how you think it will change things.

Is that all you would ever want to see, or would you want more if those measures did nothing to curb the violence? If they fail, would you say- hey we failed that wasn't the issue repeal that crap, or would you say- we just need more...

 

[nevada]

So what exactly are you, JD- calling for as far as specific "gun control" you would like to see- in MY country? Please give me a point by point breakdown of what you want and how you think it will change things.

Is that all you would ever want to see, or would you want more if those measures did nothing to curb the violence? If they fail, would you say- hey we failed that wasn't the issue repeal that crap, or would you say- we just need more...

id like to know as well.
I have asked several times, but have been ignored.

 

[Yukon4Runner]

*cracks knuckles*

And a one and a two and...

 

[-JD-]

So that's where you guys have set the bar?

I have to personally devise a comprehensive gun control system that meets your standards for the idea to be valid?

And to think people call you "gun nuts".

Well let's start with the existing systems elsewhere in the world. Please give me a point by point breakdown of why the systems existing in other countries to control firearms won't work in America.

Step one would be to remove the legal impedements preventing government agencies from studying the issue. Once more accurate and current information exists you could use that to move forward with a potential plan of action.

 

[nevada]

So that's where you guys have set the bar?

I have to personally devise a comprehensive gun control system that meets your standards for the idea to be valid?

And to think people call you "gun nuts".

Well let's start with the existing systems elsewhere in the world. Please give me a point by point breakdown of why the systems existing in other countries to control firearms won't work in America.

Step one would be to remove the legal impedements preventing government agencies from studying the issue. Once more accurate and current information exists you could use that to move forward with a potential plan of action.

certainly. if you, or anyone else is saying what we have is "not enough"
then by all means, what IS enough for you?

 

[Yukon4Runner]

Relax Chamberlain.

No matter what hippy dippy ideas the beatniks up north come up with, your soft underbelly will always be protected by the American shield.

Just throw the occasional thank you to Uncle Sam and get back to your CBC afternoon Birkenstock radio review program.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

So that's where you guys have set the bar?

I have to personally devise a comprehensive gun control system that meets your standards for the idea to be valid?

And to think people call you "gun nuts".

Well let's start with the existing systems elsewhere in the world. Please give me a point by point breakdown of why the systems existing in other countries to control firearms won't work in America.

Well, those systems aren't working in their own countries, so I don't really have to break them down point by point- they don't keep people safe, they haven't don anything to curb overall violent crime and some of the countries with the greatest amount of gun control and outright bans have the highest gun homicide rates int eh world. So F-em.

People in France still got massacred in one of the worst mass shootings in the history of the world. All their anti-gun laws and outright banning of firearms did nothing to stop determined folks from getting guns and killing as many people as they could, it only made it so EVERYONE was an easy target without the ability to defend themselves on equal footing with those madmen.


You're dodging. You are the one that wants gun control and think it will do something- so go ahead and lay it all out for us. What do you want and what will it do?

If the gun control you want was implemented and didn't do anything to curb violent crime- would you then be FOR repealing it or would you double down and say we should do more?

 

[-JD-]

What are you talking about??

The US has the highest rates of gun homicide in the developed world, as well as the highest rates of gun ownership, if thats not correlation I dont know what is.

Ive never claimed that gun control countries are utopia's without any problems, but clearly their gun violence rates are lower (ironic that you use a mass shooting to bolster your case becuase I'm sure if I used a mass shooting to try to bolster my case you would be quick to point out that mass shootings make up only a small percentage of shootings. Cherry picking stats again to suit your position, why am I not surprised).

I like how you completely dodged the question that would require you to do some research, yet you seem to legitimately expect me to spend my afternoon devising a gun control systems for America that you will find some way to disregard anyway. It's "nuts".

 

[Gunslinger-13]

What are you talking about??

The US has the highest rates of gun homicide in the developed world, as well as the highest rates of gun ownership, if thats not correlation I dont know what is.

Ive never claimed that gun control countries are utopia's without any problems, but clearly their gun violence rates are lower (ironic that you use a mass shooting to bolster your case becuase I'm sure if I used a mass shooting to try to bolster my case you would be quick to point out that mass shootings make up only a small percentage of shootings. Cherry picking stats again to suit your position, why am I not surprised).

I like how you completely dodged the question that would require you to do some research, yet you seem to legitimately expect me to spend my afternoon devising a gun control systems for America that you will find some way to disregard anyway. It's "nuts".

Yet again, those rates of "gun homicides" include police shootings, suicides, accidents and self defense shootings.

And yet again, it isn't the "gun" the freaking tools that are the issue- it's the PEOPLE. Guns don't magically kill people, they don't load themselves, hover in the air and pull their own triggers. PEOPLE use the guns to kill.

If it was really just the guns to blame then we would be seeing millions of murders and suicides every year. There are more guns in private hands in the USA than in the freaking arsenal of our military!

You completely ignore the cultural differences, socioeconomic issues and the areas guns are used the most and the people using them the most for violent crime. Those stats matter.

You completely ignore the fact that guns are used at the very minimum utilizing the most conservative estimates 2-1 in self defense versus use in crime. Liberal estimates have it at 80-1.

All of these things matter. There are more factors than just guns to consider.

Given that one stat- 2-1 use in self defense versus criminal use- more gun control laws would only inhibit more people from defending themselves, their would be more victims.

You're ignoring that facts of violent crime overall in the world and instead focusing only on gun crime/homicides.

England has more violent crime per capita than the USA. The amount of gun homicides they have compared to the amount of guns in the country is staggering.

Gun homicides isn't the only metric to consider. Overall violent crime is. The USA has seen decreases in crime rates across the board at the same time we've seen record gun sales.

If the problem were guns, violent crime would be getting worse and worse as more guns entered society. It just isn't happening.

Which is why I say YET AGAIN- that Guns are not the issue- we have a problem with many things that all contribute to the overall problem, limiting the rights by restriction, gun control of any sort or banning certain types of guns isn't going to tackle any of those issues.

It's crazy that we have nearly 300 million guns in this country and the VAST VAST majority of them are used in peaceful ways, sporting, hunting, self defense, etc. But we should restrict the rights of the many for the crimes of the few.

I used the Paris mass shootings to show that the best of intentions with gun control/bans won't prevent guns from being used to kill people, it only prevents people from being able to defend themselves with guns- because good people who follow the laws are the only ones who FOLLOW THE LAWS!

It is a way of getting my greater point across that you keep ignoring. The fact that guns are tools that are used in this country to save more lives than they are used to take lives. To prevent more violent crime from occurring than they are used in violent crimes.

That is the most important stat of them all. That is the most important metric of them all.

Especially when one sees the reality of gun laws- only people who are already NOT using guns violently would follow them. The people already using guns violently are already breaking a number of laws, they will continue to break those laws and new ones and do as they wish.

 

[Victor_inox]

50 years ago you can buy gun at Sears for like 6 bucks.
THese days ****ing Glock cost 30 bucks to make, yet sold for 600.
I consider price going up is a form of gun control.

 

[Thefishguy77]

Yet again, those rates of "gun homicides" include police shootings, suicides, accidents and self defense shootings.



And yet again, it isn't the "gun" the freaking tools that are the issue- it's the PEOPLE. Guns don't magically kill people, they don't load themselves, hover in the air and pull their own triggers. PEOPLE use the guns to kill.



If it was really just the guns to blame then we would be seeing millions of murders and suicides every year. There are more guns in private hands in the USA than in the freaking arsenal of our military!



You completely ignore the cultural differences, socioeconomic issues and the areas guns are used the most and the people using them the most for violent crime. Those stats matter.



You completely ignore the fact that guns are used at the very minimum utilizing the most conservative estimates 2-1 in self defense versus use in crime. Liberal estimates have it at 80-1.



All of these things matter. There are more factors than just guns to consider.



Given that one stat- 2-1 use in self defense versus criminal use- more gun control laws would only inhibit more people from defending themselves, their would be more victims.



You're ignoring that facts of violent crime overall in the world and instead focusing only on gun crime/homicides.



England has more violent crime per capita than the USA. The amount of gun homicides they have compared to the amount of guns in the country is staggering.



Gun homicides isn't the only metric to consider. Overall violent crime is. The USA has seen decreases in crime rates across the board at the same time we've seen record gun sales.

If the problem were guns, violent crime would be getting worse and worse as more guns entered society. It just isn't happening.



Which is why I say YET AGAIN- that Guns are not the issue- we have a problem with many things that all contribute to the overall problem, limiting the rights by restriction, gun control of any sort or banning certain types of guns isn't going to tackle any of those issues.



It's crazy that we have nearly 300 million guns in this country and the VAST VAST majority of them are used in peaceful ways, sporting, hunting, self defense, etc. But we should restrict the rights of the many for the crimes of the few.



I used the Paris mass shootings to show that the best of intentions with gun control/bans won't prevent guns from being used to kill people, it only prevents people from being able to defend themselves with guns- because good people who follow the laws are the only ones who FOLLOW THE LAWS!



It is a way of getting my greater point across that you keep ignoring. The fact that guns are tools that are used in this country to save more lives than they are used to take lives. To prevent more violent crime from occurring than they are used in violent crimes.



That is the most important stat of them all. That is the most important metric of them all.



Especially when one sees the reality of gun laws- only people who are already NOT using guns violently would follow them. The people already using guns violently are already breaking a number of laws, they will continue to break those laws and new ones and do as they wish.

Guns are not the problem. The problem is people. It's sad that liberals are going to focus on the tool vs the problem. About 10 years ago I said guns will be the next cigarette. I was crazy...

Once guns are done with they will focus on something else that will give the left more power. Maybe capitalism, non self driving cars, vaping, eating habits.

The best part of this is when the base of the left gets affected they will be up in arms. But if base took the time now to read the book Rules for Radicals they would see they are just being used.

https://www.amazon.com/Rules-Radicals-Practical-Primer-Realistic/dp/0679721134

It's crazy the most all career politicians use some form of structure in this book. We are all to some extent "useful idiots". Now read the book and find out what the context of those 2 words are.


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[Victor_inox]

Those younger folks mark my words semi auto guns will be banned from civilian hands in your lifetime. I keep a few guns for my son to keep though.

 

[nevada]

What are you talking about??

The US has the highest rates of gun homicide in the developed world, as well as the highest rates of gun ownership, if thats not correlation I dont know what is.

Ive never claimed that gun control countries are utopia's without any problems, but clearly their gun violence rates are lower (ironic that you use a mass shooting to bolster your case becuase I'm sure if I used a mass shooting to try to bolster my case you would be quick to point out that mass shootings make up only a small percentage of shootings. Cherry picking stats again to suit your position, why am I not surprised).

I like how you completely dodged the question that would require you to do some research, yet you seem to legitimately expect me to spend my afternoon devising a gun control systems for America that you will find some way to disregard anyway. It's "nuts".

you mean like chicago its heavy gun laws not having any correlation to their high gun crime?


the onus is on you to provide that information. as you are the one claiming the current system isn't enough.

 

[Thefishguy77]

Those younger folks mark my words semi auto guns will be banned from civilian hands in your lifetime. I keep a few guns for my son to keep though.

This seems the next logical step.


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[Victor_inox]

This seems the next logical step.


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To me for sure.

 

[Fomer_FJ_owner805]

Those younger folks mark my words semi auto guns will be banned from civilian hands in your lifetime. I keep a few guns for my son to keep though.

Its already going to happen in California (like I needed to say the state) ANY long gun with a removable magazine will be banned. Even with the stupid bullet button. The worst part no more grandfather clause on many items , example you bought a 15 round AR mag when they were legal in Cali you must turn them in. I wonder how many gang bangers and felons will follow that law. ZERO, its just going to turn people that never broke a single law into criminals. Its scary to see ads for gun stores here with big bold print (No longer for sale Jan.17) next to 1/2 the rifles. Because this is just the start.

 

[Victor_inox]

Its already going to happen in California (like I needed to say the state) ANY long gun with a removable magazine will be banned. Even with the stupid bullet button. The worst part no more grandfather clause on many items , example you bought a 15 round AR mag when they were legal in Cali you must turn them in. I wonder how many gang bangers and felons will follow that law. ZERO, its just going to turn people that never broke a single law into criminals. Its scary to see ads for gun stores here with big bold print (No longer for sale Jan.17) next to 1/2 the rifles. Because this is just the start.

I don`t need no stinking magazine

 

[Gunslinger-13]

They wouldn't stop at magazine fed semi autos, they would just continue on to the next gun they wanted banned.

Next up would be those super accurate bolt action sniper rifles with assault scopes. You can kill a man from damn near a hundred miles with those don't you know...

Then anything that looks scary at all. because the way a gun looks is directly related to how lethal it is and if it should be banned or not- that's just "Common sense". Evil bayonet- BAN IT! Shoulder thingy that goes up- BAN IT! Foregrip- BAN IT!

Then gotta go after shotguns, those things scatter and can kill fifty men at once with a single load of bird shot don't you know...

It's just "Common sense" that all of us idiot gun owners can't grasp with our brutish neanderthal brains, we're just stuck in the 8th century don't you know- it's our fault evil exists in this world...

The anti's will never stop, which is why I find it so ridiculous when one of them tells me they don't wan't to take my guns.

They already have taken machine guns away, anything after 86 anyways, and pre 86 examples are rare and EXPENSIVE as FVCK! And made it so hard and expensive to get a suppressor- which is a piece of freaking safety equipment for gods sake!!!!!!!

You used to be able to mail order guns without an ID or any background check, nothing just a stamp and envelope and a C note or 2. The world didn't end then.

Heck, once evil people realize guns aren't even that great at killing a lot of people at once they will have little use for them anyways.

IT is already starting to happen, they just aren't very sophisticated yet; it will only be a matter of time though. Bombs. Easy to make, easy to transport and effective for creating mass carnage. remotely detonated so the evil SOB's can live to make another and another and another...