Apple Opposes Judge Order to Break Encryption

[Thai]

Looks like all the big tech players support Apple

Link: Report: Google, Twitter, Facebook, & Microsoft to file court motions officially supporting Apple in FBI fight | 9to5Mac

Quote:

Following Apple’s filling earlier today in which it formally responded to the FBI’s court request to access date on a locked iPhone, the Wall Street Journal now reports that Facebook, Google, Microsoft and Twitter all plan to file court motions in which they support Apple’s stance.

In addition to Facebook and Google formally planning to support Apple’s side in its fight with the FBI, the EFF, ACLU, and WhatsApp have all voiced their unequivocal agreement with Apple and come out in support of the company.

 

[hikenbike]

Interesting. The gov isn't above the law either. But yet they hold themselves above the law every day.

Or they change them or make new ones.

 

[Thai]

Link: Apple Files Legal Motion Denying FBI Request

Quote: (Apple's response today)

"The government says: “Just this once” and “Just this phone.” But the government knows those statements are not true; indeed the government has filed multiple other applications for similar orders, some of which are pending in other courts. And as news of this Court’s order broke last week, state and local officials publicly declared their intent to use the proposed operating system to open hundreds of other seized devices—in cases having nothing to do with terrorism. If this order is permitted to stand, it will only be a matter of days before some other prosecutor, in some other important case, before some other judge, seeks a similar order using this case as precedent. Once the floodgates open, they cannot be closed, and the device security that Apple has worked so tirelessly to achieve will be unwound without so much as a congressional vote."

…under the same legal theories advocated by the government here, the government could argue that it should be permitted to force citizens to do all manner of things “necessary” to assist it in enforcing the laws, like compelling a pharmaceutical company against its will to produce drugs needed to carry out a lethal injection in furtherance of a lawfully issued death warrant, or requiring a journalist to plant a false story in order to help lure out a fugitive, or forcing a software company to insert malicious code in its auto-update process that makes it easier for the government to conduct court-ordered surveillance.

 

[BrianSD_42]

This will probably come across as crazy but perhaps, just perhaps, instead of trying to gain access to US citizens phones, the US Government should focus on keeping US Military Weapons out from the hands of Jihaddist Rebels. As it stands now the US Government and it's allies are funneling weapons to "other rebels groups, not ISIS" whatever that means.


Telegraph UK | Syrian Jihadiis Put Up US Weapons for Sale on Facebook
Syria jihadis put US weapons up for sale on Facebook

:bat:

 

[SupaSupra]

New development.

Thoughts?


Apple Doesn't Have to Help FBI in New York iPhone Case, Judge Says - NBC News

 

[BrianSD_42]

I think the main reason why the government should not have the power of a backdoor is because although they claim it is needed for fighting terrorism, in the end they will use it for all criminal investigations.

* fraud
* assault
* robbery
* corporate crime
* the war on drugs

Just like with the patriot act, something that was originally "for fighting terrorism" they will use it against EVERYONE for nearly EVERY CRIME.

Local police in all major cities are eager to use this future backdoor technology to investigate crimes. They will eagerly use it for EVERYTHING.

The same thing is happening in Britain right now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-unless-practicable-snoopers-bill-to-say.html

And what about France? They are living in a near police state. 10,000 troops deployed throughout Paris. They are changing the constitution to strip away privacy rights, the right of what we consider the 4th amendment, and many other rights. They have to rewrite their constitution to move towards a less free society.

And why? Because of terrorism. Because they cannot trust their neighbor. Because they cannot trust the guy on the street corner. Because they cannot trust the person standing next to them on the subway or at the footbal game or at the music Hall.

How did it get this way? The news has reported that of the France attackers, who shot over 420 people, the majority were born in France, the children of refugees. Just a tiny fraction of a fraction of bad apples caused this much damage to France, is people, it's freedoms. And now France is giving up those freedoms for safety. Even now they are doubling down on immigration, letting in more refugees than ever before.

What is the answer for America? I don't know for sure but I know it is not time to turn America into a police state while at the same time opening our borders to the unknown. That is the road France and Germany are going down.

I would prefer to keep my freedoms and privacy rights AND just shut our borders entirely too everyone except the educated who are not from countries the US is at war with or in any combat action with. If the US is bombing a country, why are we offering refuge? Historically we did not do that in the past. I fail to see why 2016 is different then the last 100 years.

What the democrats don't realize is their policies and more importantly position in the debate about immigration is the very thing fueling Trump. I don't support Trump but I can clearly see why he is surging. And I can clearly see why the far right in Europe is rising up. All of the problems in Europe could have been avoided and they can be avoided here as well.

Imagine the KKK polling at 30% nationally (across all parties) in 2017. Not Donald Trump but an actual far right party. Shocking? Unbelievable? That is what is happening in Europe right now and it is all because of terrorism, open borders and the migrant crisis. Even more concerning, Europe is at the beginning of the disaster, not the end. These policies have disastrous effects for a society and we are seeing that in Europe.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35687257

That is just my 2 cents. A bit of brainstorming. Perhaps I wrong. Perhaps my mind will be changed.

 

[Thai]

I am confused with the GOP candidates...they are all seemingly against Apple. Even Ted Cruz. Who should i vote for then? Hilary?

 

[Wingsuit]

I am confused with the GOP candidates...they are all seemingly against Apple. Even Ted Cruz. Who should i vote for then? Hilary?

The irony is that in an attempt to shield her mix of political and State Department emails from Freedom of Information Act disclosures, which is illegal in itself, she housed all that info, some classified (even if she directed subordinates to "wash it" by erasing the classification markings, which is also a crime) on a private server (also a crime) that she had at her house. that server was virtually certain to have been targeted by hostile intelligence services.

Not to mention that Google knows far more about every American than the government ever could hope to know.

If Apple ends up losing this court case, which will be decided on points of law not giddiness and emotion, the only people that need to worry about having their phones looked at are criminals, foreign spies, and terrorists. The government doesn't give a hoot about your cat videos and your porn (unless it's child porn). So if your kids teacher has child porn on his i(sis) phone, and the FBI can arrest him and remove the threat by accessing the phone with a court order, would you rather keep him out of jail and in the classroom?

 

[Thai]

If Apple ends up losing this court case, which will be decided on points of law not giddiness and emotion, the only people that need to worry about having their phones looked at are criminals, foreign spies, and terrorists. The government doesn't give a hoot about your cat videos and your porn (unless it's child porn). So if your kids teacher has child porn on his i(sis) phone, and the FBI can arrest him and remove the threat by accessing the phone with a court order, would you rather keep him out of jail and in the classroom?

Ok...fair...but what if the special iOS software leaked out or Apple got hacked and now the special iOS is in the hands of 3rd party hackers? They can now literally break into any iPhone to get any data they want (personal, financial, children's info).

And before anyone tell me that hacking Apple is unlikely, i guess many folks at Sony and Home Depot once thought that way too.

Ask the China human rights activists who were killed or jailed by China government because "someone" hacked into GMAIL and found their identities and whereabouts.

 

[flighht2k5]

I am confused with the GOP candidates...they are all seemingly against Apple. Even Ted Cruz. Who should i vote for then? Hilary?

She should be in prison

 

[Thai]

She should be in prison

I agree. I was just joking about voting for Hilary! My wife and I voted Ted Cruz.

 

[Wingsuit]

Ok...fair...but what if the special iOS software leaked out or Apple got hacked and now the special iOS is in the hands of 3rd party hackers? They can now literally break into any iPhone to get any data they want (personal, financial, children's info).

And before anyone tell me that hacking Apple is unlikely, i guess many folks at Sony and Home Depot once thought that way too.

Ask the China human rights activists who were killed or jailed by China government because "someone" hacked into GMAIL and found their identities and whereabouts.

Well, Apple has the key to the Cloud, which houses pretty much all data for every Apple user. So if they can keep that secure .... You trust Apple with all your data on the cloud, but not with complying with court orders on a case by case basis? Again, John Q., who is not a terrorist, spy, or criminal, should have no concern. If I were the above, I would exclusively use Apple products to protect my spying/terrorism/criminal activity.

 

[Thai]

Well, Apple has the key to the Cloud, which houses pretty much all data for every Apple user. So if they can keep that secure .... You trust Apple with all your data on the cloud, but not with complying with court orders on a case by case basis? Again, John Q., who is not a terrorist, spy, or criminal, should have no concern. If I were the above, I would exclusively use Apple products to protect my spying/terrorism/criminal activity.

Anyone can be hacked. Google has literally the best security team next to the government and they were hacked. One of the issue here is that if this software gets into the wrong hands...beyond what the US government also wants to do with it to solve every crime by breaking into every iPhone.

This also has wide rippling effects worldwide in terms of abuse of human basic rights. You think China will sit idle while Apple lets the US government access to the special software? What do you think China will do with the backdoor?????? Russia??

Once Apple makes the backdoor, EVERY government on the planet will want it...and will (ab)use it.

 

[Wingsuit]

Also, in a concession to the People's Republic of China (where your Apple products are made) Apple had to agree to use Chinese servers to sell iPhones there. You know, servers that the government of China has access to. Now that sounds real secure, not to mention hypocritical on Apples part.

 

[Wingsuit]

Anyone can be hacked. Google has literally the best security team next to the government and they were hacked. One of the issue here is that if this software gets into the wrong hands...beyond what the US government also wants to do with it to solve every crime by breaking into every iPhone.

This also has wide rippling effects worldwide in terms of abuse of human basic rights. You think China will sit idle while Apple lets the US government access to the special software? What do you think China will do with the backdoor?????? Russia??

Once Apple makes the backdoor, EVERY government on the planet will want it...and will (ab)use it.

This is where the hyperbole gets in the way of reason. Doubt the FBI or police want to break into every iPhone to solve every crime. Nice imagination. But we have a known terrorist who killed people, and the unknown is on his county owned phone. Maybe nothing, maybe something. Guess Apple is feeling lucky on that one. What do you think Apple is going to do with the key? Keep it on the Internet? Besides, I don't buy that the technology doesn't already exist. If Tim Cook testifies under oath in federal court that it doesn't exist then I might believe him. By the way, unlike the FBI, China has thousands of techs whose full time jobs are to hack the west. Wouldn't be surprised if they are already in the Cloud. And the Hillary.com would be child's play for them.

 

[Thai]

Also, in a concession to the People's Republic of China (where your Apple products are made) Apple had to agree to use Chinese servers to sell iPhones there. You know, servers that the government of China has access to. Now that sounds real secure, not to mention hypocritical on Apples part.

"Apple's siting of data within mainland Chinese borders may come as a surprise to some, given the company's firm stance on privacy and security. Apple attempted to quash those concerns by revealing that the encryption keys for user data would be stored offshore and would not be available to China Telecom."

In other words, what Apple is doing in China is no different than what Apple is doing in USA.

BTW, iCloud stored data can be accessed by ANY government given appropriate warrant. So, the NSA can access iCloud data of terrorist if they had a warrant and presented to Apple. And in THIS case, Apple did provide all iCloud data to the FBI.

This is NOT what the controversy is about. Two different issues. iCloud data is NOT what Congress has to decide on.

 

[Thai]

This is where the hyperbole gets in the way of reason. Doubt the FBI or police want to break into every iPhone to solve every crime. Nice imagination. But we have a known terrorist who killed people, and the unknown is on his county owned phone. Maybe nothing, maybe something. Guess Apple is feeling lucky on that one. What do you think Apple is going to do with the key? Keep it on the Internet? Besides, I don't buy that the technology doesn't already exist. If Tim Cook testifies under oath in federal court that it doesn't exist then I might believe him. By the way, unlike the FBI, China has thousands of techs whose full time jobs are to hack the west. Wouldn't be surprised if they are already in the Cloud. And the Hillary.com would be child's play for them.

Do you read the news? Read the above links. FBI and police already has a laundry list of cases that they want Apple to break into!

Oh nevermind. Dude, you sound just like BlackWorks guy. Please understand the topic at hand.

 

[Wingsuit]

It's frustrating for you because you are the one suffering from lack of knowledge and understanding of the law and a Federal a Rules of Criminal Procedure, so you vent. If we go to a place that are cyber "no go" dark zones for police and the courts, just get used to more unsolved crimes, and more attacks not being prevented or solved. Just a more dangerous US. It probably won't affect you personally, there are millions of people here and only a relative few will be victims of crime or terrorism. So what if a strangers child is victimized sexually, it doesn't affect you. San Bernadino probably didn't affect you. I did hear that the FBI was establishing a unit just to steal cat videos from bearded hipsters, though.

 

[Thai]

It's frustrating for you because you are the one suffering from lack of knowledge and understanding of the law and a Federal a Rules of Criminal Procedure, so you vent. If we go to a place that are cyber "no go" dark zones for police and the courts, just get used to more unsolved crimes, and more attacks not being prevented or solved. Just a more dangerous US. It probably won't affect you personally, there are millions of people here and only a relative few will be victims of crime or terrorism. So what if a strangers child is victimized sexually, it doesn't affect you. San Bernadino probably didn't affect you. I did hear that the FBI was establishing a unit just to steal cat videos from bearded hipsters, though.

Let me take a wild guess...you own Android (like the equally mis-guided Blackswork)...that explains your lack of understanding of encryption and privacy. :smashputer:

 

[Wingsuit]

Actually I am on an iPad as we "speak".

Let me give you a specific past event which having a cyber dark zone would have severely affected a terrorism issue: look up Ahmed Ressam, aka the Millineum Bomber. Ahmed the Algerian was caught entering the US from Canada on New Years Eve 1999, with what can technically be described as a big ass bomb in his car trunk. Nitroglycerin, ammonium nitrate, he had it all. Was on his way to bomb LAX. Ahmed had trained with Al Quaeda, and had been a terrorist a while. He is in Supermax Prison right now. What if, when he was arrested, he had all his info on an encrypted I(sis) phone. The instant world wide investigation that his arrest triggered would have been severely delayed and much more difficult, since all his contacts, maps and the like would have been "dark". Wouldn't have know his contacts, his target, nothing. But it probably wouldn't have affected you personally. Just the thousands of people at LAX that day. But not you. You should look up the Theory of Bounded Rationality, if you can understand it.