Bad Service... No oil change till 10k?

[adrtoy]

I do the oil changes on our Wrangler myself at 10k or around a year with the Chrysler approved Pennsoil. If Toyota's gonna do it for free every 10k I'm good. Heck our Jeep say's not to exceed 10k with conventional oil.

I made a living with wrenches for 16 years, so I've pretty much seen it all.

 

[Throwback]

Why would you want to argue with the dealer, and essentially the Toyota engineers that designed the system, about their maintenance intervals? If they say 10k they mean 10k. There's not some advantage they get to doing *less* frequent oil changes.

I follow the service intervals to a "T", that way if something goes awry there's a full record of service history putting the responsibility on the dealer, and essentially Toyota corporate.

The flip side is your Jiffy Lube type places that put the little reminder sticker in your windshield stating 3k miles regardless of the vehicle because that's how they make their money.

 

[Bumbo]

[MENTION=147450]Throwback[/MENTION]

The flip side is that Toyota only care about the car making it past a warranty period...

Aside for the rare, its happening to everyone TSB, I really dont think they give two hoots.

 

[(none)]

Oh, the great debate.

I can see multiple sides of the argument:

- How many of these motors have failed due to 10k oil changes? I haven't heard of any. But then again, there are people who run them low on oil, and technically, with Toyota specs, the motor can burn 1qt per 1k miles. That's 10qts of oil (or nearly 2 oil changes) within 10k miles. Does everyone who runs their motors at the full intervals check their oil level? When I took my 4R in for the 5k service, I don't think they even popped the hood to check levels.

-10k oil change intervals and free services look great for Toyota. They advertise it everywhere. If they can get by spending half as much (changing the oil every other service instead of every 5k) they are saving a lot of money!

-10k oil changes make Toyota seem like a much more environmentally friendly company. Their vehicles require less frequent oil changes, thus they are kinder to the environment and create less waste.

-Salesmen love to say "just bring it in for service once a year!". Normal customers like to hear that. They don't want to keep track of miles and only want to go to the dealer for services when they absolutely have to. That's why they bought a Toyota!

-Oil is getting better. Our motors have good overall engine cooling (coolant temps maintained in the 190s) and we have stock oil cooling as well. 5k+ oil change intervals have been the norm for manufacturers since the 80s. Even on old, regular oil. Hell, my CRF250L has a 8k oil change interval and it holds less than 2qts of oil! My aircooled BMW has a 6k oil change interval though, so oil temperature control is key.
Toyota had an issue with sludging years ago. That was mainly due to using regular oil, bad oil galley design and customers continuing to go above and beyond extended oil change intervals. Toyota wasn't the only one, VW/Audi and others had the same issue. The switch to quality synthetic oils changed that, but oil levels still need to be checked. Hence the move to electronic dipsticks.

It pretty much gets down to, do what you want. Change it early or don't. Even at 10k, that's relatively conservative for a motor which holds 6.5qts of oil and has good filtration. The only think I don't like about Toyota's setup is it only considers mileage, nothing else, so it must be a fairly conservative number for them to use it. Many manufacturers factor in items such as fuel used, number of starts, average coolant and oil temperatures, throttle positions, etc to get a good read on how the motor is being used. My previous BMW 525i would get up about 16k miles before it'd recommend an oil change!

Point being, if you were in the market for a used 4R and found one which was dealer serviced, 50k miles and the oil had been changed at the recommended 10k intervals, would that scare you off?

 

[Hybryd40]

I replaced my own oil at 5000 with oem filter and let them do it at 10,000. I again just replaced mine again at 15,000 and will let them do the last one under their maintenance plan again at 20,000. I figured I got 2 free synthetic oil changes and 4 rotate and balance of my tires. I have never been a fan of taking any of my vehicles anywhere for service. Luckily I have a great service adviser who always takes care of me. After maintenance agreement is over. He may never see me again as I trust only myself to work on my rides. I too have it in my head that 10,000 is to long to go between oil changes.

 

[Bumbo]

Oh, the great debate.

I can see multiple sides of the argument:

- How many of these motors have failed due to 10k oil changes? I haven't heard of any. But then again, there are people who run them low on oil, and technically, with Toyota specs, the motor can burn 1qt per 1k miles. That's 10qts of oil (or nearly 2 oil changes) within 10k miles. Does everyone who runs their motors at the full intervals check their oil level? When I took my 4R in for the 5k service, I don't think they even popped the hood to check levels.

-10k oil change intervals and free services look great for Toyota. They advertise it everywhere. If they can get by spending half as much (changing the oil every other service instead of every 5k) they are saving a lot of money!

-10k oil changes make Toyota seem like a much more environmentally friendly company. Their vehicles require less frequent oil changes, thus they are kinder to the environment and create less waste.

-Salesmen love to say "just bring it in for service once a year!". Normal customers like to hear that. They don't want to keep track of miles and only want to go to the dealer for services when they absolutely have to. That's why they bought a Toyota!

-Oil is getting better. Our motors have good overall engine cooling (coolant temps maintained in the 190s) and we have stock oil cooling as well. 5k+ oil change intervals have been the norm for manufacturers since the 80s. Even on old, regular oil. Hell, my CRF250L has a 8k oil change interval and it holds less than 2qts of oil! My aircooled BMW has a 6k oil change interval though, so oil temperature control is key.
Toyota had an issue with sludging years ago. That was mainly due to using regular oil, bad oil galley design and customers continuing to go above and beyond extended oil change intervals. Toyota wasn't the only one, VW/Audi and others had the same issue. The switch to quality synthetic oils changed that, but oil levels still need to be checked. Hence the move to electronic dipsticks.

It pretty much gets down to, do what you want. Change it early or don't. Even at 10k, that's relatively conservative for a motor which holds 6.5qts of oil and has good filtration. The only think I don't like about Toyota's setup is it only considers mileage, nothing else, so it must be a fairly conservative number for them to use it. Many manufacturers factor in items such as fuel used, number of starts, average coolant and oil temperatures, throttle positions, etc to get a good read on how the motor is being used. My previous BMW 525i would get up about 16k miles before it'd recommend an oil change!

Point being, if you were in the market for a used 4R and found one which was dealer serviced, 50k miles and the oil had been changed at the recommended 10k intervals, would that scare you off?

I like your point about lowering their total cost of ownership... its a another way of trying to manipulate those numbers.

I honestly don't think it matters one way or another because you can't always have that information... almost every car I have sold I have never turned over service records.

You dont know what the previous owner did, how they used the truck...

I bought a used Silverado recently for a work truck... but I bought it form someone I knew and trusted. I also know its towed boats for a good part of its life. If the previous owner went off the factory intervals even with records, it could all look great but really not be.

I have a 4th Gen, family owned since new, and for the last 5+ years I have done all my own maintenance and upgrade. Brakes, fluids, suspension... everything. I don't really have records aside for some notes about when I did what. Something like that could also easily be fabricated. Its all there for my own benefit, not for resale.

And this thread wasn't really about worrying about failed motors... nor is it a concern even with factory recommended intervals. I'm sure the 10k intervals are totally fine if you use the truck under normal operating conditions...

So to answer your question, it probably wouldn't scare me off, but I generally dont walk into deals I am unsure about either. All im saying is that used anything could be a crap shoot... I can guarantee you there is never a guarantee.

Just kinda blows my mind how many people seems like they are against an early oil change. You guys never do anything nice for your cars?

 

[bajacolorado]

4WD Service

I just learned something by actually reading the manual after 25k miles of standard service. My Tucson dealer is great and professional BTW. If you do a decent amount of off-road (in 4wd) there are added items that need to be done at certain intervals. These added items do not pop up at the dealership or if you check in online - you have to request them - see the manual for the added items. If you keep to the pavement - not an issue. Good to know as I am headed to Baja tomorrow to watch the San Felipe 250 and when I am back I will be overdue for my last free service. This is a race that is in 1 of 4 series that includes the Baja 1000. LOTS of dusty, whooped out, silted and washboard conditions to get to the best viewing spots. Watching one of these SCORE races should be on any west coasters bucket list.

 

[DavidR1]

Just kinda blows my mind how many people seems like they are against an early oil change. You guys never do anything nice for your cars?

I too used to change my oil every 3-5k miles, even when the recommended interval was 7500 (it was a turbo car). After I sent my oil to Blackstone to be analysed and they continued to tell me I could push my intervals out further then 10k miles I stopped worrying about it.

These days, I think manufacturers are probably being conservative with their 8-10k mile recommendations. It seems you feel they are out to get one over on you, they aren't.

 

[4RunnerAquasport]

Guilty as charged: dumb assery and wasting of money. I change my oil every 3k miles. It's always dirty when I change it. This truck gets beat up pretty hard sometimes so I feel good about doing it that often. Might be foolish but this thing is a beast and she deserves the attention. ----side bar: Truck was bought with 59k on it. The dealer where I bought it did 6 oil changes for the previous owner according to car fax history, and in those 6 visits they managed to strip ALL of the skid plate bolts. They Shirley aren't getting any of my business.

 

[adrtoy]

FWIW when I was wrenching for a living we would mark customers intervals at 3000 because it was good for business. :thumb3:

 

[Antman]

Hell, I'm not sure these engines even need ANY oil. Didn't you guys see the thread where the OP sucked half the desert sand into his intake?

Yup. Still running.:shrug:

10K good for me- almost 130,000 miles.

 

[Toffees]

Oh, the great debate.

I can see multiple sides of the argument:

- How many of these motors have failed due to 10k oil changes? I haven't heard of any. But then again, there are people who run them low on oil, and technically, with Toyota specs, the motor can burn 1qt per 1k miles. That's 10qts of oil (or nearly 2 oil changes) within 10k miles. Does everyone who runs their motors at the full intervals check their oil level? When I took my 4R in for the 5k service, I don't think they even popped the hood to check levels.

-10k oil change intervals and free services look great for Toyota. They advertise it everywhere. If they can get by spending half as much (changing the oil every other service instead of every 5k) they are saving a lot of money!

-10k oil changes make Toyota seem like a much more environmentally friendly company. Their vehicles require less frequent oil changes, thus they are kinder to the environment and create less waste.

-Salesmen love to say "just bring it in for service once a year!". Normal customers like to hear that. They don't want to keep track of miles and only want to go to the dealer for services when they absolutely have to. That's why they bought a Toyota!

-Oil is getting better. Our motors have good overall engine cooling (coolant temps maintained in the 190s) and we have stock oil cooling as well. 5k+ oil change intervals have been the norm for manufacturers since the 80s. Even on old, regular oil. Hell, my CRF250L has a 8k oil change interval and it holds less than 2qts of oil! My aircooled BMW has a 6k oil change interval though, so oil temperature control is key.
Toyota had an issue with sludging years ago. That was mainly due to using regular oil, bad oil galley design and customers continuing to go above and beyond extended oil change intervals. Toyota wasn't the only one, VW/Audi and others had the same issue. The switch to quality synthetic oils changed that, but oil levels still need to be checked. Hence the move to electronic dipsticks.

It pretty much gets down to, do what you want. Change it early or don't. Even at 10k, that's relatively conservative for a motor which holds 6.5qts of oil and has good filtration. The only think I don't like about Toyota's setup is it only considers mileage, nothing else, so it must be a fairly conservative number for them to use it. Many manufacturers factor in items such as fuel used, number of starts, average coolant and oil temperatures, throttle positions, etc to get a good read on how the motor is being used. My previous BMW 525i would get up about 16k miles before it'd recommend an oil change!

Point being, if you were in the market for a used 4R and found one which was dealer serviced, 50k miles and the oil had been changed at the recommended 10k intervals, would that scare you off?

You should notice low oil through other inputs as well: engine temperature, sound, even the dummy lights (you should see two). Or you can check the oil level, which is also reasonable.

I doubt the 10k oil change is simply marketing and trying to get past the warranty period. Toyota's entire brand is reliability and longevity, having engines crap out at 120,000 because they skimped on the recommended service interval would do irreparable harm to that.

 

[Float]

You should notice low oil through other inputs as well: engine temperature, sound, even the dummy lights (you should see two). Or you can check the oil level, which is also reasonable.

I doubt the 10k oil change is simply marketing and trying to get past the warranty period. Toyota's entire brand is reliability and longevity, having engines crap out at 120,000 because they skimped on the recommended service interval would do irreparable harm to that.

^^this. Toyota built its house around long term dependability. The ramifications of skimping on service intervals would be harmful to their bottom line in the long run.

Seems there are a lot of aluminum foil hat-wearers on this thread.

 

[Rynooo]

If I may throw in my $0.02: you're going to cause yourself a lot of discomfort in life with worrying of this sort. I am a worrier so I am speaking from experience. I am so much happier when I can put some trust in other people, verify that they did what they were supposed to, and weigh the cost/benefit of taking action if things aren't up to par. The valve stem caps, for instance, just aren't worth the trouble because a tech forgot to put one on. Just buy a few and keep them in the truck as replacements and move on. Very few things in life are so bad that they are worth sacrificing your health and, without a doubt, worrying about things like this will affect you in the long term.

 

[philsey]

The dude at the dealership was just a dick about it... kinda caught me off-guard... even the tire caps. He basically told me that I was trying to pull fast one, on my brand new car that's never been to service anywhere else. He then proceeded to tell me, "we don't do stuff like that here", and then blamed me for not noticing it when doing the "walk around" after service.

Totally blew my mind.

Never had that bullshit with any other brand or dealer...

I have zero tolerance for ppl like this. I am immediately at the SM's or GM's door if I encounter a turd like this. I operate under the assumption that managers want/need to know if an employee is treating customers this way. I will not spend my money for any product, and then be treated poorly, nosiree Jack.

I go back to my Honda dealer, and my Toyota dealer because they give me excellent service. I also make it a point to see the GM and tell him why I'm back.

 

[MasonCO]

I have zero tolerance for ppl like this. I am immediately at the SM's or GM's door if I encounter a turd like this. I operate under the assumption that managers want/need to know if an employee is treating customers this way. I will not spend my money for any product, and then be treated poorly, nosiree Jack.

My 10,000 mile service at the dealer was not good. (Lots of little things went wrong). I wrote a nice email to the GM (only after a phone call/message to the Service Manager was not returned) and I ended up getting a free detail at 15,000. The 4R sure looked pretty for a few days after that!

 

[Toffees]

Seems there are a lot of aluminum foil hat-wearers on this thread.

Changed regularly though...

 

[LUVDA4RUNNER]

This is one area I've seen across the board in all my years with different motor sports. Oil debates. You can literally have the oil engineers tell a person (myself included) that they are wasting their money on changing the oil too often....and they still won't believe you.:director:


It's a mental issue. I have it. I use top quality products and I over do it.


I've got a boat with a 20k outboard on it. Yamaha tells me every 100 hours. I do every twenty. Stupid I know...but I feel better about it. My dad did this to me. He was a mechanic and does 3k mile changes TO THIS DAY and still calls pennzoil junk. LOL. Old school thinking carries over, despite the data.

Your wasting your money, my buddies 10 4runner is over 200k miles w:10k oil changes

 

[jspagna1]

My old Italian mechanic who has since retired always used to tell me, after I needed the camshaft replaced in my 1980 Camaro because of never changing the oil.

Even if you don't do anything else on your car, always change the oil in your car because it's like the blood in your body!!!!

I use regular/conventional oil in all my cars and always have. I change the oil in my new cars at 1,000 miles and then at every 5,000 miles.

I keep my vehicles till the wheels fall of so to each his own when it comes to oil changes. If you feel like changing it, knock yourself out!!!!

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

It's kinda funny that people think Toyota would actually risk their extremely good reputation for reliability, just to save a few bucks on giving out free oil changes. I used to drive all kinds of test cars for a living and if you think they didn't test the living hell out of the 10k OCI then you are crazy. If they say 10k, then they mean 10k. I'm sure that still leaves a very large cushion for people who do not care about things like vehicle maintenance.