Bad vibes after lift install - Solved? Solved!

[00Spork]

I'll tell you right now that it's CV vibration. I had the same symptoms you're describing after installing my lift. Using aftermarket CV axles will exacerbate the problem, I'd switch back to OEM axles (sorry if you already did, I wasn't clear) and if you still have the vibration, take the coilovers down until the vibration is gone. Post up a picture of how your 4runner sits right now on flat ground.

Why anyone runs aftermarket CV's on a lift is beyond me. See this thread and I bet you'll agree that a used OEM axle is better than a new aftermarket axle any day. ESPECIALLY if you plan to take it on the dirt:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/118842-any-luck-aftermarket-cv-axles.html

Further, I wouldn't be so sure that you have 2.75" of lift. Are you armored in any way or do you have stock bumpers? Look up stock ride height from hub to fender and then measure what yours is. That will give you a pretty good idea as to how much lift you've actually got on the front end.

 

[thezentree]

Let's pontificate for a minute, because there's snow on the ground and the windchill is 5 degrees. I have zero desire to turn wrenches in that nonsense.

If it is indeed the CV angle, the fact that three separate sets of CV axles (two of them brand new) haven't really affected the issue tells me it's not a problem with the CVs themselves. If so many of you are running 3" of lift without these vibrations, then my 2.75" is within an acceptable range of angle.

What then, could it be? Remember, this started immediately after I lifted it. I didn't notice this at all with stock suspension and tires.

Looking at the FSM, I think it could be the outer bearing on the passenger side of the diff (circled below). There's a few millimeters of radial play at the inner CV tulip. This is a video I made of the driver's side a few months ago before I installed the ECGS bushing, but it illustrates what I'm talking about. The passenger side doesn't have this much play but there is some. It's too f-ing cold to go video the passenger side right now, but you get the point.

Another possibility is maybe the SPC upper control arms are pushing the knuckle too far away from the diff, which could pull the CV tripod towards the edge of the inner CV tulip. The UBJ is pretty centered in the UCA slot though, and the alignment is within factory specs. This could explain why it's done this across 3 sets of CVs but given the alignment specs, I think this is unlikely.

Could bad LCA bushings or wheel bearings do this? Literally every other wear item in the front end has been replaced within the last 8 months.

Would someone who doesn't have vibrations like this be willing to go look at their passenger side CV at the diff and see if they have radial play at the outer diff bearing?

Quoted so this is on the next page.

I'll tell you right now that it's CV vibration. I had the same symptoms you're describing after installing my lift. Using aftermarket CV axles will exacerbate the problem, I'd switch back to OEM axles (sorry if you already did, I wasn't clear) and if you still have the vibration, take the coilovers down until the vibration is gone. Post up a picture of how your 4runner sits right now on flat ground.

Why anyone runs aftermarket CV's on a lift is beyond me. See this thread and I bet you'll agree that a used OEM axle is better than a new aftermarket axle any day. ESPECIALLY if you plan to take it on the dirt:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/118842-any-luck-aftermarket-cv-axles.html

Further, I wouldn't be so sure that you have 2.75" of lift. Are you armored in any way or do you have stock bumpers? Look up stock ride height from hub to fender and then measure what yours is. That will give you a pretty good idea as to how much lift you've actually got on the front end.

I'll edit this post in a minute with a pic from today.

Yes, it has OEM reman CVs in it, hub to fender at the front is 22-3/4". I'll SAS it before I take more lift out of it at this point, because the whole point of all this time, effort, and money has been to have a lifted 4Runner.

 

[Unner]

My passenger CV has just a little bit of play like you showed in the video of your driver, but not as much for sure.

I didn't read the entire thread, but I read your first post with everything you've tried, and everything since your last update a couple days ago.

Have you thought about wheel bearings? Seems to be one of the few things you haven't tried replacing yet.

I'd also try taking the lift down a little bit incrementally and test driving. It might only need to come down 1/8" to get into a perfect spot, who knows. Since you've got coilovers it's easy to do, and would at least show you what the problem is for sure.

 

[thezentree]

My passenger CV has just a little bit of play like you showed in the video of your driver, but not as much for sure.

I didn't read the entire thread, but I read your first post with everything you've tried, and everything since your last update a couple days ago.

Have you thought about wheel bearings? Seems to be one of the few things you haven't tried replacing yet.

I'd also try taking the lift down a little bit incrementally and test driving. It might only need to come down 1/8" to get into a perfect spot, who knows. Since you've got coilovers it's easy to do, and would at least show you what the problem is for sure.

Thanks for looking at your CV.

Yeah, I've considered wheel bearings but they don't howl like bearings usually do when they're going bad.

I did talk to ECGS this morning and the guy I talked to said that the outer bearing in the diff tube could cause that vibration, but I know it's not easy to diagnose something like that over the phone.

 

[Unner]

Thanks for looking at your CV.

Yeah, I've considered wheel bearings but they don't howl like bearings usually do when they're going bad.

I did talk to ECGS this morning and the guy I talked to said that the outer bearing in the diff tube could cause that vibration, but I know it's not easy to diagnose something like that over the phone.

2nd gen Tacomas are known for bad wheel bearings. My dad just did his on his 09 Tacoma, there was no howling, but vibrations on the highway, and more prevalent when going through a curve or something versus driving straight.

Is your vibration more prevalent at a certain speed or anything like that?

 

[thecole1098]

I'm curious to know what your vibrations speeds are as well. Mines most noticeable at highway speeds (60-70MPH). I just crawled under my rig to probe at the CVs. My drivers inner tulip has movement however the passenger does not. I do not have ECGS bushings, either. My front wheel bearings are original however the back ones are new as I did those with the axle seals. My lower control arm bushings are original as well. Other than that, everything else has been replaced except for u joints.

 

[thezentree]

2nd gen Tacomas are known for bad wheel bearings. My dad just did his on his 09 Tacoma, there was no howling, but vibrations on the highway, and more prevalent when going through a curve or something versus driving straight.

Is your vibration more prevalent at a certain speed or anything like that?

Before I did all that work it was most noticeable from 55-70mph. Now it starts about about 45 and just gets faster with wheel speed, but it's certainly less intense than before. I think the tire issues I was having masked a lot of it initially, and the higher lift may have changed the speed range I saw it.

What were your dad's vibrations like?

I'm curious to know what your vibrations speeds are as well. Mines most noticeable at highway speeds (60-70MPH). I just crawled under my rig to probe at the CVs. My drivers inner tulip has movement however the passenger does not. I do not have ECGS bushings, either. My front wheel bearings are original however the back ones are new as I did those with the axle seals. My lower control arm bushings are original as well. Other than that, everything else has been replaced except for u joints.

Like I said above, it starts around 45 but it's probably a little more noticeable at 60-70 like yours. Thank you for looking at your CVs too.

I'll try to get a quick video of the CVs tomorrow just so y'all can see mine and let me know if yours are better or worse.

 

[thezentree]

I'll try to get a quick video of the CVs tomorrow just so y'all can see mine and let me know if yours are better or worse.

Here's that video: https://youtu.be/H1mbI4MADzs
[MENTION=116387]Unner[/MENTION] is this comparable to the play you saw?



Totally unrelated to the vibrations, there is what appears to be small amount of coolant dripping off the bottom of the diff... great.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Here's that video: https://youtu.be/H1mbI4MADzs

[MENTION=116387]Unner[/MENTION] is this comparable to the play you saw?



Totally unrelated to the vibrations, there is what appears to be small amount of coolant dripping off the bottom of the diff... great.

That CV movement is normal.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Did you check or replace the LCA bushings? If so what kind?

 

[thezentree]

Did you check or replace the LCA bushings? If so what kind?

Nope. LCA bushings and wheel bearings are the only parts I've not replaced.

 

[thezentree]

Ordered some whiteline LCA bushings because mine are toast. I'm also going to do wheel bearings while I've got it taken apart.

Also, I jacked the front end up and was spinning the tires listening for wheel bearing noise and noticed that the driver's side cv axle doesn't appear to be spinning on center; the centerline of the axle shaft is not the axis the assembly spins on. I don't know if this is a function of the way the mechanism is designed or if it's actually an issue, but I can see how this could cause a vibration. Pay attention to the perspective gap between the axle shaft and the aft part of the LCA:

https://youtu.be/gM4Ej_MY-Cw

I didn't look at the passenger side but is that normal?

 

[CRB Racing]

My vibration was coming from my AC compressor!
On Sunday I started the engine and there was a pretty loud knocking sound. I identified the compressor as the noisy part.
When I got the old 286,000 mile compressor out, I noticed the clutch was binding and was hard to turn and there was significant play.
I replaced it with a new Denso compressor and knock on wood... NO VIBRATIONS!

Then engine sounds like it's running smoother and there seems to be less engine braking.

Something for you to look onto.

 

[thezentree]

Figured I’d update this since it’s been a while and I’m still working through some issues here.

About a month ago I threw in the towel and took it to a Toyota specialist in town. They were mostly stumped by the front end vibrations, but they put it on the rack and with the engine running and the trans in gear, they saw the rear driveshaft was wobbling. So I took the driveshaft to a Fleet Pride driveline shop for them to check and sure as shit, my 6 month old Tom Woods driveshaft was bent. I guess it happened when they shipped it to me? Dunno. Regardless, I guess I tried to fix a worn out double cardan vibration with a bent driveshaft, which explains why even with the longer UCAs I was getting a driveline vibration.

I called Tom Woods and they had me send it back to be straightened and rebalanced (for free - they stand behind their product, even 6months out). While the TW shaft was off, I put the OEM DS back in and turned the rear UCAs out another 3/16” (3/8” total) and noticed a significant improvement. The vibration isn’t gone but it’s much less severe. With a digital angle gauge I measured 2.5 degrees difference today when I put the repaired TW driveshaft back in. I need to add another 1/8” to the UCA and see how much that helps.

On a slightly nerdy note, I downloaded a vibration analyzer app for my iPhone and at 70mph and 2200rpm, I’m picking up significant vibrations at ~13Hz and ~39Hz. I see the start of another spike at around 46 or 47Hz but the app cuts off frequency there. I’m running 32s and 4.10 gears, so the 13Hz is the tires and I think the 39Hz is a 3rd order vibration from the tripod in the CVs. I’m guessing that the spike at the end there is the driveshaft, which should be around 53Hz (4.10 x 13Hz). I don’t know how helpful that is at this point, but at least it’s confirmation that there are several vibrations and not just one. I don’t really know what to do with the CV vibration though. I’ll see how bad it is when I can get the rear DS vibration fixed.

 

[thezentree]

I got a chance to adjust the rear UCAs out another 1/8" and the vibrations are nearly gone. I measured around 2° between the pinion flange and driveshaft, so maybe another half a turn of the UCAs and I bet it will be all but eliminated.

I am really surprised at how much difference that tiny bit of adjustment made.

 

[sleepydad]

I got a chance to adjust the rear UCAs out another 1/8" and the vibrations are nearly gone. I measured around 2° between the pinion flange and driveshaft, so maybe another half a turn of the UCAs and I bet it will be all but eliminated.

I am really surprised at how much difference that tiny bit of adjustment made.

In theory a zero degree difference would be the best. I measured the output shaft flange and the pinion flange when i did my lift. Went from 1.9 to 2.4, that tiny difference was a enough to cause a noise. That double Cardon caused me issues as well. Why I decide to get a new drive shaft. Glad you got it sorted. Also glad to hear woods fixed it. It all seems so obvious once it figured out.

 

[thezentree]

In theory a zero degree difference would be the best. I measured the output shaft flange and the pinion flange when i did my lift. Went from 1.9 to 2.4, that tiny difference was a enough to cause a noise. That double Cardon caused me issues as well. Why I decide to get a new drive shaft. Glad you got it sorted. Also glad to hear woods fixed it. It all seems so obvious once it figured out.

Yeah I'm going to shoot for around 1.5° but I think the remaining vibration is acceptable, although not desirable, for a 17 year old lifted 4x4.

I have no idea how this isn't a common issue with lifted 3rd gens though. After this experience it seems like adjustable/longer rear UCAs should be a standard part for lift kits.

 

[Stone128]

I've been following this for some time and have a similar sounding vibration after lift on a 2002 w/ 165k miles. I installed Bilstein 5100s w/ OME 881 on second perch in front and OME 890 in rear. I gained 2.5" in front and 3" in rear. I also did a 1" Toytec diff drop, alignment, and longer sway bar end links in the rear. Driving for the first time there was a low hum in the front during acceleration at lower speeds (20-40mph). Like a wum wum wum sound that increases w/ engine speed then goes away as transmission shifts down. When letting off gas the wum wum wum goes away so it appears directly correlated w engine speed. On the highway starting around 58-60mph I get a high frequency vibration in the steering wheel and in the seat, like an electric toothbrush. It seems to diminish around 65 and comes back at 70+. Driveability isnt impacted but feels like my brain is vibrating. An interesting note is when it is cold in the morning (20-30F), the vibration is barely there. In the afternoon once the temps have come up to 50-60F, the vibration is much worse. I have had improperly balanced wheels in the past and this is not a shimmy or wobble from a bad balance. Wheels were perfect before lift.

Here things I've tried so far with no change:

-Drive in 4wd at low and high speeds, no change
-Put trans in neutral at high speeds and coast, no change.
-Greased all driveshaft zerks in front and rear shaft (ujoints and slip yokes)
-Checked ujoints for play, none
-Checked CV joints for play, minimal which seems to be normal
-Checked LBJ and wheel bearing play, none
-Removed skid plates, low speed wumming seemed to diminish but is still there. Skid plates were in contact with front diff mounts so I thought that could be it.
-Front and rear diff fluids changed around 5000miles ago

Other things I've tought of trying before spending a lot of money on new parts or labor:
-Remove front driveshaft
-Remove rear driveshaft
-Change transfer case oil. Don't know when it was last done.
-Remove diff drop
-Lower front Bilsteins to first perch

Any input or thoughts from your saga would be greatly appreciated. All signs point to front end, but from reading your post it looks like rear pinion angle / double cardon is the main culprit.

 

[thezentree]

I've been following this for some time and have a similar sounding vibration after lift on a 2002 w/ 165k miles. I installed Bilstein 5100s w/ OME 881 on second perch in front and OME 890 in rear. I gained 2.5" in front and 3" in rear. I also did a 1" Toytec diff drop, alignment, and longer sway bar end links in the rear. Driving for the first time there was a low hum in the front during acceleration at lower speeds (20-40mph). Like a wum wum wum sound that increases w/ engine speed then goes away as transmission shifts down. When letting off gas the wum wum wum goes away so it appears directly correlated w engine speed. On the highway starting around 58-60mph I get a high frequency vibration in the steering wheel and in the seat, like an electric toothbrush. It seems to diminish around 65 and comes back at 70+. Driveability isnt impacted but feels like my brain is vibrating. An interesting note is when it is cold in the morning (20-30F), the vibration is barely there. In the afternoon once the temps have come up to 50-60F, the vibration is much worse. I have had improperly balanced wheels in the past and this is not a shimmy or wobble from a bad balance. Wheels were perfect before lift.

Here things I've tried so far with no change:

-Drive in 4wd at low and high speeds, no change
-Put trans in neutral at high speeds and coast, no change.
-Greased all driveshaft zerks in front and rear shaft (ujoints and slip yokes)
-Checked ujoints for play, none
-Checked CV joints for play, minimal which seems to be normal
-Checked LBJ and wheel bearing play, none
-Removed skid plates, low speed wumming seemed to diminish but is still there. Skid plates were in contact with front diff mounts so I thought that could be it.
-Front and rear diff fluids changed around 5000miles ago

Other things I've tought of trying before spending a lot of money on new parts or labor:
-Remove front driveshaft
-Remove rear driveshaft
-Change transfer case oil. Don't know when it was last done.
-Remove diff drop
-Lower front Bilsteins to first perch

Any input or thoughts from your saga would be greatly appreciated. All signs point to front end, but from reading your post it looks like rear pinion angle / double cardon is the main culprit.

Your vibration sounds really similar to mine. I would try working on pinion angle first. I really like the Metal Tech 4x4 rear UCAs I have, but you do have to remove one end to adjust the length. Rokmen's have opposite thread heims on both ends so you can loosen the jam nuts and adjust the length that way, but for a salt belt DD I didn't want to deal with squeaking heims. Rear UCAs are relatively inexpensive and not hard to install.

I thought for sure that it was something in the front end because I was getting a ton of vibration through the steering wheel, but I think it's just very very sensitive to pinion angle.

 

[Kanoe]

Doesn't adjusting the upper control arm (and pinion angle) rotate the whole rear end assembly? I would think this would affect the seating of the rear springs and shocks, or is the rotation not enough to be significant?