Battery drawing down over 2 days - winch the cause?

[Okki]

My group 31M Battery is drawing down over 2 days where the truck has a hard time starting.

Only the compressor and the winch are wired directly into the battery. Should a cutoff switch have been installed between the winch and the battery?

Any input from users with winches is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Okki

 

[philsey]

Does the compressor have an "auto" setting where it is always keeping pressure in the tank?

 

[rigtec]

My group 31M Battery is drawing down over 2 days where the truck has a hard time starting.

Only the compressor and the winch are wired directly into the battery. Should a cutoff switch have been installed between the winch and the battery?

Any input from users with winches is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Okki

Hey there Mr Okki! Okay so your aftermarket loads only include an 'Air Comp & Winch' is that correct... Is the air compressor on a pressure stat that maintains a predetermined pressure minimum? I'm trying to establish whether either of the two loads have reason to cycle on/off over night. If not you can perform a 'parasitic current draw test' to determine if either of your loads are stealing power on their own. They shouldn't though unless they're using some sort of processor with a memory! I'll wait to hear back from you before I draw an opinion on the matter.

rig

 

[3wbdriver]

I haven't been able to do so yet myself but you really should have a cutoff switch between the winch and the battery anyway. Just for safety in case the solenoid locks on while the winch is operating. But the 2 questions about your compressor probably have more validity in this case.

 

[Okki]

Hey there Mr Okki! Okay so your aftermarket loads only include an 'Air Comp & Winch' is that correct... Is the air compressor on a pressure stat that maintains a predetermined pressure minimum? I'm trying to establish whether either of the two loads have reason to cycle on/off over night. If not you can perform a 'parasitic current draw test' to determine if either of your loads are stealing power on their own. They shouldn't though unless they're using some sort of processor with a memory! I'll wait to hear back from you before I draw an opinion on the matter.

rig

The compressor is switched from the cab. There has been no (known) change there. There is no tank that's being kept full. If I need to air up, I flip the switch and the compressor comes on.

My suspicion is the winch since that was a recent addition. I did not wire that personally, so that's still a bit of an unknown. The dealer who is fixing another issue is testing the battery tomorrow.

Once the family events for the evening wrap up, I'm reading through all the paperwork I got with the winch to see if there are installation instructions and what they say.

Was mainly curious if a constant draw from the winch would be normal seems like a draw that makes the truck hard to start in 2 days is somewhat substantial for a appliance that is in an idle state.

Thanks Guys!

Edit: I've also not heard the compressor run, and with the time I've recently had to spend under my truck, I would have noticed if the compressor running was the issue.

 

[rigtec]

...I neglected to ask you how old your 31M is [MENTION=55815]Okki[/MENTION] ; there could be a breached partition between two cells draining current from within!

 

[Okki]

...I neglected to ask you how old your 31M is @Okki; there could be a breached partition between two cells draining current from within!

1 May, 2014. Is when I installed it. If it's a bad battery, hopefully the dealer test will show that tomorrow.

 

[rigtec]

"...Was mainly curious if a constant draw from the winch would be normal seems like a draw that makes the truck hard to start in 2 days is somewhat substantial for a appliance that is in an idle state..."

If you suspect the winch as culprit, pulling it's in-line fuse over night would be the simplest way to eliminate that suspect!

 

[rigtec]

1 May, 2014. Is when I installed it. If it's a bad battery, hopefully the dealer test will show that tomorrow.

Two years doesn't seem to qualify that as a suspect at this point; it could happen but not a likely cause!

 

[Okki]

If you suspect the winch as culprit, pulling it's in-line fuse over night would be the simplest way to eliminate that suspect!

Yeah, I'm planning on disconnecting the winch once I get the truck back. If that is the issue, I'm curious as to why. Hence the question if folks normally install a cutoff switch on the winch and leave it turned off unless they need to have the winch operating.

Okki

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

I'd say disconnect the winch and see if it is pulling a load, although I'm willing to bet it is not. Almost every vehicle winch large enough to pull a 4runner out of the bush will have solenoids internally disconnecting the power until you press the in or out switch, so its really not possible for the winch to be pulling current on its own. I know that my M8000 is hardwired to my truck's battery and it just sat, no charger or maintainer on the battery, for the last 3 weeks while I was on vacation and it started right up like nothin'.

Having said that, a switch is a good safety measure that nobody really thinks of, myself included! I've heard of winch solenoids welding shut under super-heavy loads and not releasing when the switch is let go. I've seen bent up frames from the motor continuing to run while completely wound up with no way to shut it down. I've even heard of a vehicle catching on fire from an accident where it crushed the solenoid and turned the winch on by itself!

Of course, it depends on the load of your winch, but this would probably be the minimum switch to use:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/3000/HD-Series_Heavy_Duty_On-Off_Battery_Switch

Yes, that switch is ~$100.00, but its capable of safely holding 500A. As a reference, the Warn XD9000 motor pulls a max of 478 amps! Do NOT think you can just throw any old switch in there!!! I can guarantee that if it is not rated to hold continuously the load your motor pulls, you will have a glowing red switch when you need your winch the most! Nothing like having it fail and watching your 4runner burn everything under the hood!

 

[Okki]

I
Having said that, a switch is a good safety measure that nobody really thinks of, myself included! I've heard of winch solenoids welding shut under super-heavy loads and not releasing when the switch is let go. I've seen bent up frames from the motor continuing to run while completely wound up with no way to shut it down. I've even heard of a vehicle catching on fire from an accident where it crushed the solenoid and turned the winch on by itself!

Of course, it depends on the load of your winch, but this would probably be the minimum switch to use:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/3000/HD-Series_Heavy_Duty_On-Off_Battery_Switch

Yes, that switch is ~$100.00, but its capable of safely holding 500A. As a reference, the Warn XD9000 motor pulls a max of 478 amps! Do NOT think you can just throw any old switch in there!!! I can guarantee that if it is not rated to hold continuously the load your motor pulls, you will have a glowing red switch when you need your winch the most! Nothing like having it fail and watching your 4runner burn everything under the hood!

There was no link or make/model for the switch :fish2:

It's a brand new warn Zeon 10 S.

 

[Sleeter]

I installed a power interrupt switch primarily for safety. I witnesses a jk winch itself into a tree because the contacts in the winch welded closed. One of the two guys running the winch was nearly crushed while he was trying to pry the + clamp off the battery.

https://www.amazon.com/WARN-62132-Power-Interrupt-Kit/dp/B000CQFVN8

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

DOH!

Let's try it again:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/3000/HD-Series_Heavy_Duty_On-Off_Battery_Switch

Sorry, been a long day!!!

 

[flyrv9]

Before you change anything I suggest you do the following:

Have the battery load tested after being properly charged.

With it back in the vehicle, load test the charging system to make sure the alternator is working properly and charging the battery and supporting the electrical system.

Once the above is done and everything is back together, and there is still a problem - or no problem is found; start removing loads beginning with the last ones added. You may want to connect a current meter to make troubleshooting easier. It will tell you if there is any draw with everything supposedly turned off. Remember current is measured in series with the circuit.

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

And I wouldn't use Warn's solenoid kit, as its only rated up to 200A or 250A. They also say not to use it with a winch in their paperwork (although I can't find the damned pdf file now to upload it!).

It may work for a while, but will eventually fail from burnt contacts if you actually use your winch to its fullest capacity. Not something I would want to find out on a trail with my rig dangling over a ridge or some other dangerous scenario!

Besides that, that solenoid would probably weld itself shut much faster than the internal solenoids in the winch, which would render the shutoff useless, you're back at the same point you were, just 75 bucks poorer!

Still say use a manual switch rated over and beyond what that winch will need. Remember this too, rated amperage is at a full 12 volts with engine running, as voltage drops, say like not being able to start the vehicle for charging, the amperage will go up until the battery can't provide the current any more. With an AGM, that could be several minutes worth, and one volt down can raise the load 5-10%, meaning the 475amps is now at 520 amps!

Pesky electrical theories, breaking people's stuff!!! :fear:

 

[Titanpat57]

One of the biggest problems we suffer by replacing the starting battery with a deep cycle, is that unless you completely charge the deep cycle battery, you'll suffer at the standard charge rate the truck is designed to deliver. You have steak battery, but a peanut butter and jelly charging system.

Charge the battery on a good quality trickle/float type charger...bring it back to good health...and let us know how it shakes out.

 

[Antman]

One of the biggest problems we suffer by replacing the starting battery with a deep cycle, is that unless you completely charge the deep cycle battery, you'll suffer at the standard charge rate the truck is designed to deliver. You have steak battery, but a peanut butter and jelly charging system.

Charge the battery on a good quality trickle/float type charger...bring it back to good health...and let us know how it shakes out.

Pat's right. Over time- usually about a month- my main deep cycle (actually dual purpose) battery will slowly get weaker and weaker because our charging system wasn't designed to fully charge such a big battery with a huge reserve capacity. I just plug it into an electronic charger overnight (I have leads with a plug on the battery all the time) and then I'm good for another month. I also have my ARB fridge running 24/7 during the summer, set at 42 degrees so that contributes to the discharge rate significantly.

It's the nature of the beast.

So Okki, lets say your battery was already at 60% charge when you got the winch- due to what we talked about above. You get the winch, try it out a few times to make sure it works and drain your battery even more. Now the alternator can't fully charge the battery and every time you start it the % of charge gets less and less until it's too tired to turn over. That's probably your scenario.

 

[Bikemedic]

My bet is the battery or charging system.

Steps I would do in this order if I was going to do it myself

1. Have battery tested at auto parts store

2. Issolate winch from battery (pull + cable)

3. Issolate compressor from battery.

4. Disconect any other aftermarket

These will all take time as you have to see if the symptoms reapear. Good dealers can trace the drainage....

Good luck, electrical issues can drive you nuts.

 

[rigtec]

I'd like to contribute just one more thing...

This is in a worst case scenario situation. You ( [MENTION=55815]Okki[/MENTION] ) may end up performing a 'Parasitic current draw test' I'll assume you already know what that is and how it's done (I'm not attempting to talk down to anyone here or to be condescending). But for those of you who may not know what that is... it's simply a way to locate a Battery draining, unknown active circuit when you've turned everything that can be turned off, off but something is still pulling a draw on the battery.

You would connect a amp meter/milli-ammeter (i.e. multi-meter) between the negative battery terminal and the battery cable. Set the ammeter to the low scale (10 or 20 amps) DC amperes mode. The most you should be seeing on the display is 50 milli-amps and no more; this is normal! If it's more then that i.e. 1, 2, 3 amps, that's the problem. Basically, your gonna start pulling the fuses out ...'one by one' until the display drops to within the normal range; less than an amp!

Again, pull the fuses out one by one and put each one back in before pulling the next one. Check the main fuse box first. If no problem is found move on to the next fusebox near the emergency brake and start doing the same thing that you did at the main fusebox under the hood. NOTE: Be sure to keep the dome light door switch depressed to prevent a false alarm. As you're pulling out each fuse watch the meter display and note any sudden drop in amperage after pulling each fuse... when this happens, that's the circuit of interest.

Once the right fuse has been pulled out, refer to the fuse arrangement on the fusebox cover; it will tell you what that fuse does and which accessory is the likely culprit. NOTE: You may need to see a wiring diagram to get the complete picture of everything that is on that fuse as the fusebox cover is a limited reference of what else could be on that fuse; if you don't have a wiring diagram you can inquire here and I'll provide you a list of what else is on that fuse and the full schematic on each page. From there it gets easier because you now know which circuit is causing the problem.

And now you'll only need to start turning switches off, and disconnecting harnesses to locate the device that's drawing current that should not be! They'll only be a few things on any given fuse so disconnecting each device from it's wiring harness will eventually reveal the troubled device. Take your time with this because an over-sight could be very frustrating and force you to do the whole thing over from the start! And don't be afraid or intimidated by wires... they don't know anything and they aren't trying to trick you. Just continue following the investigative leads that you've discovered thus far and YOU WILL find the problem!

Besides... just think how proud your wife will be when she discovers that she's been married to a Genius all this time! :kiss: ...Just my 0.00005 cents, Best to you all!

rig