Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen

[qs933]

That does get a little old... I hope he's right and the next gen is better than this one. The only real thing that makes me nervous about this and the Tundra is the reliability.

The one thing that seems to be consistent among the Gen 6 speculation is that there will be no V6. Same thing with the next-gen Lexus RX -- the rumors have been fairly consistent that the V6 will be replaced by low-displacement, turbo 4s with various electrified options.

That makes me a little more optimistic about the reliability aspect. I don't think they'd make the move to replace the tried-and-true V6 if there were doubts about reliability, particularly in the Lexus lineup.

 

[Blackwatch]

I wonder if there’s been enough miles put on these Lexus turbo engines to weed out the problems yet? The 3.5 tt has seen limited use in a flagship vehicle that doesn’t sell many units. Not sure how long the 2.4 turbo has been going but once people start driving tons of miles in a truck I think that’s when you’ll see issues pop up. The Tacoma had lots of issues in its first two years after that 3.5 had been used for years in Camrys, siennas and highlanders.
I’m still on the fence about buying a 22 tundra or playing it conservative and getting a 22 4Runner. I’m looking to buy a long term truck that may last 20+ years.

 

[qs933]

I wonder if there’s been enough miles put on these Lexus turbo engines to weed out the problems yet?

I really haven’t followed it on any Lexus forum (since I don’t own one or have been interested in one), but I know Lexus has used a turbo-charged 4 on the IS and the NX, and the latter is one of their higher-volume vehicles.

 

[RPDBluemoon]

If I ever met David in person, I'd want to ask him, "So what line of work are you in?"

[For those who haven't watched his videos, he mentions he's an engineer or automotive engineer almost every other sentence. The description of his YouTube channel mentions he's an engineer twice...in the first two sentences.]

In all seriousness, he seems to be much more connected to Toyota from a production standpoint than any of the other Toyota YouTubers. Most of the others seem to gather their information from Toyota Marketing or from the sales channels -- or from third-hand knowledge from someone like David who has production connections.

Based on Toyota's typical way of launching vehicles by showing them months ahead of production, maybe we'll see it debut at one of the major auto shows in early or mid '22? They still need to launch the Sequoia.

You can make rational arguments both ways — for a release in 2023 or delayed until 2024, or assembled in Mexico or remains in Japan.

I honestly feel like he does the for clickbait. An "engineer" is a really far reaching term and doesn't mean that you are credible. Just because you are an engineer doesn't mean that your "leaks" are true or accurate. But its YouTube so I understand why he does it. Its just annoying how far people will clickbait for views.

 

[qs933]

I honestly feel like he does the for clickbait. An "engineer" is a really far reaching term and doesn't mean that you are credible. Just because you are an engineer doesn't mean that your "leaks" are true or accurate. But its YouTube so I understand why he does it. Its just annoying how far people will clickbait for views.

I think that’s just the nature of YouTube channels. It’s all about clicks and how long you can keep a viewer. That’s why many of them will take a 2 minute topic and turn it into 20 minutes.

No offense to the engineers here, but I’ve generally found an inverse relationship between the number of times someone says they are an engineer and the actual strength of their argument. Bonus points if they throw in where their degree is from.

 

[Annolino122]

I think that’s just the nature of YouTube channels. It’s all about clicks and how long you can keep a viewer. That’s why many of them will take a 2 minute topic and turn it into 20 minutes.

No offense to the engineers here, but I’ve generally found an inverse relationship between the number of times someone says they are an engineer and the actual strength of their argument. Bonus points if they throw in where their degree is from.

Previous Toyota Engineer here - worked on the Tundra, the Tacoma and know the exact schedule for the 4Runner, the exact engine, and the schedule/location it's being built.

You're 100% correct on the "engineers" who throw it around as if they are a part of some cult or group that have all this knowledge. yes, we talk, yes, we know more than most.

But any Toyota Engineer will/can get fired for leaking any information. So he isn't Toyota, because he would have been fired. He has to be a supplier or some other company, who has contacts, and they're giving him information to spread as speculation without being 100% right.

As stated on a couple comments, the next 4Runner has to be better than the current one on every level. Just like the Tundra, it needs to be ground breaking to keep torch from other manufacturers.

It's fun watching all the speculation, the conversation, the information, hope you guys are excited, but not too excited cause it may be a minute

 

[qs933]

But any Toyota Engineer will/can get fired for leaking any information. So he isn't Toyota, because he would have been fired. He has to be a supplier or some other company, who has contacts, and they're giving him information to spread as speculation without being 100% right.

He appears to be an industry consultant who had some involvement with and/or training by Toyota at some point. You're absolutely right -- hosting a YouTube channel to disseminate internal information as an employee would be a very expedient way to get a meeting with HR, and a box for your things.

I would guess most of Toyota's key suppliers are under NDA as well -- and that Toyota has a decent process in place to track any leaks. Risking your company's vendor status so you can get a few subscribers...not a good idea.

Which makes his videos all the more amusing, as his engineering credentials are about as useful at predicting Toyota's future product plans as my T4R forum membership. But, I will admit, I hit subscribe. I am not proud.

 

[Jetboy]

Previous Toyota Engineer here - worked on the Tundra, the Tacoma and know the exact schedule for the 4Runner, the exact engine, and the schedule/location it's being built.

You're 100% correct on the "engineers" who throw it around as if they are a part of some cult or group that have all this knowledge. yes, we talk, yes, we know more than most.

But any Toyota Engineer will/can get fired for leaking any information. So he isn't Toyota, because he would have been fired. He has to be a supplier or some other company, who has contacts, and they're giving him information to spread as speculation without being 100% right.

As stated on a couple comments, the next 4Runner has to be better than the current one on every level. Just like the Tundra, it needs to be ground breaking to keep torch from other manufacturers.

It's fun watching all the speculation, the conversation, the information, hope you guys are excited, but not too excited cause it may be a minute

FWIW, the tundra isn't good enough for how long it took. It's a 2015 update in 2021. Did Toyota only hire one engineer to spend 15 years designing it? I'm kinda joking, but kinda not. What happened?

I hope Toyota does better with the next 4runner.

 

[Travel2]

New 4R mid-2022 ? 4 cyl. ? If that is true, I will opt for a 2022, and the
4.0 engine. We have owned 6 4R's since 2008, never a problem, and excellent return on trades. I just cannot see the 4R with a 4 banger, especially pulling the max weight it is designed for.
Better they put a trans cooler with this 4 cyl. Pull 5K + lb tow up a mountain expressway ?

I will put my money on a '22, and be satisfied. Seems like designers are looking more at glamour and not guts nowadays. 4 Cyl - 4R ?

T 2

 

[RPDBluemoon]

New 4R mid-2022 ? 4 cyl. ? If that is true, I will opt for a 2022, and the
4.0 engine. We have owned 6 4R's since 2008, never a problem, and excellent return on trades. I just cannot see the 4R with a 4 banger, especially pulling the max weight it is designed for.
Better they put a trans cooler with this 4 cyl. Pull 5K + lb tow up a mountain expressway ?

I will put my money on a '22, and be satisfied. Seems like designers are looking more at glamour and not guts nowadays. 4 Cyl - 4R ?

T 2

To be fair the 5,000 lbs is a really weak subpar towing number. Its average and not really anything special or hard to achieve. Even the new Hyundai Santa Fe that has a turbocharged 4 cylinder has the same towing capacity. The Ford Ranger has an even better towing capacity and it has a 4 cylinder engine. The new Ford Maverick has a similar output @ 4,000 lbs. The suspension setup has a bigger factor in towing than the engine. The new rumored engine is supposed to offer a ~25% increases in torque so it should be even more capable.

You shouldn't have any issues with a 4 cylinder engine as long as the car was setup with towing in mind, which unfortunately I don't think the 4Runner is since its marketed as an off-roader. Really hope Toyota can bump up the towing capacity for the next gen. I like SUVs better than trucks, but trucks are easily way more practical because of how easy it is to haul. I really want the 4Runner to be able to tow my mustang. The 5,000 lbs is really pushing it.

 

[Jetboy]

To be fair the 5,000 lbs is a really weak subpar towing number. Its average and not really anything special or hard to achieve. Even the new Hyundai Santa Fe that has a turbocharged 4 cylinder has the same towing capacity. The Ford Ranger has an even better towing capacity and it has a 4 cylinder engine. The new Ford Maverick has a similar output @ 4,000 lbs. The suspension setup has a bigger factor in towing than the engine. The new rumored engine is supposed to offer a ~25% increases in torque so it should be even more capable.

You shouldn't have any issues with a 4 cylinder engine as long as the car was setup with towing in mind, which unfortunately I don't think the 4Runner is since its marketed as an off-roader. Really hope Toyota can bump up the towing capacity for the next gen. I like SUVs better than trucks, but trucks are easily way more practical because of how easy it is to haul. I really want the 4Runner to be able to tow my mustang. The 5,000 lbs is really pushing it.

I find current 4Runner chassis tows 5k lbs + pretty well. It's the drivetrain that's not up to the job. The 1GR is just so anemic in the hills and gets terrible mpg at the same time. A turbo 4 should be better. A modern transmission would be a huge upgrade too.

It's always hard to compare to a capacity to other brands. Because some of them rate them so differently. The best example is the new Land Rover Defender. They claim an 8k lb tow capacity. But the manual says that the hitch is only certified for about 375 lbs. Figure out how to tow 8,000 lb with a 375 lb tongue weight safely...

Unfortunately I think most of the recent experience tells us that Toyota is not going to give us the engines we want. There's no reason they couldn't put that 3.5 twin turbo in the 4Runner. Or something comparable to Ford's 2.7 EcoBoost. But most likely all we're going to get is a turbo 4 and a hybrid that are both under sized for what a lot of us want to do with the 4Runner. That seems to be the formula. The 2.4 in the NX is not impressive in the much lighter vehicle. It'll be pretty disappointing in a 4runner is my guess.

 

[qs933]

FWIW, the tundra isn't good enough for how long it took. It's a 2015 update in 2021. Did Toyota only hire one engineer to spend 15 years designing it? I'm kinda joking, but kinda not. What happened?

I hope Toyota does better with the next 4runner.

My guess would be:

- Toyota put its development resources in the 2010s behind the TNGA platform for its mainstream cars and crossovers (think Camry, RAV4)
- In the meantime, everything else was -- joint-development, back-burner, or kill

They are on the back-end of migrating their cars/crossovers to TNGA -- Lexus NX and RX are among the last of the main North American models?

Truck (TNGA-F) development was pushed out after a substantial part of the above was completed. Now we're seeing the results of that catch-up effort -- and it'll come one right after another, it seems (Tundra, Sequoia, 4Runner, Tacoma).

Meanwhile, on the car side, it'll probably more an evolutionary, life-cycle management of the existing platform. The next Camry is supposed to be evolutionary and they already decided to kill the Avalon. And, on the car/crossover side, people have been complaining lately about Toyota dragging its feet in electrification, much like the truck/SUV folks were complaining during the 2010s.

 

[Jetboy]

My guess would be:

- Toyota put its development resources in the 2010s behind the TNGA platform for its mainstream cars and crossovers (think Camry, RAV4)
- In the meantime, everything else was -- joint-development, back-burner, or kill

They are on the back-end of migrating their cars/crossovers to TNGA -- Lexus NX and RX are among the last of the main North American models?

Truck (TNGA-F) development was pushed out after a substantial part of the above was completed. Now we're seeing the results of that catch-up effort -- and it'll come one right after another, it seems (Tundra, Sequoia, 4Runner, Tacoma).

Meanwhile, on the car side, it'll probably more an evolutionary, life-cycle management of the existing platform. The next Camry is supposed to be evolutionary and they already decided to kill the Avalon. And, on the car/crossover side, people have been complaining lately about Toyota dragging its feet in electrification, much like the truck/SUV folks were complaining during the 2010s.

I guess, the problem for me is that they didn't do anything meaningful for 15 years. They could have just kept the current 4runner and added an 8-speed transmission. It would make it a much nicer vehicle for a lot of stuff - towing, bigger tires, etc.

And with the new tundra, they did a hybrid - but it's a pretty weak sauce version. Small battery, small added power, and the added power you get will be very short-lived because of the small battery capacity. Not to mention that they didn't give us any of the features that the F-150 does as far as using the battery and generator for camp use. Toyota even does that in the sienna minivan! But not in the truck?! I think it's weird that they're using the smaller 9.5 axle. I think it's horseshit that the lower trim models get a less powerful tune on the same engine. That's a directly anti-consumer move by Toyota. They started pulling the same crap in the Lexus lineup.

After such a long time, I expected a lot more. And given the relatively basic truck update that they are coming out with - the pricing is out of line. When all the specs were initially released and people were assuming it would be a small price increase from the last generation - it seemed like a good value. But when I find out that Toyota is going to give me less than the more popular domestic trucks for more money - it's hard to not go but something else. The pricing kind of fits the weird supply constraint market issue we have right now. But when things go back to normal - it is not a competitively priced truck. So they're going to have to do the $10,000 discounts like the domestics do. My bet: new tundra will sell less than the old one.

My general perception is that there was a lot more excitement about the new tundra before it was released than there is now after it's out. I still might end up buying one because I need a truck. But what was a sure thing is now a maybe. And definitely not a immediate order.

 

[Annolino122]

FWIW, the tundra isn't good enough for how long it took. It's a 2015 update in 2021. Did Toyota only hire one engineer to spend 15 years designing it? I'm kinda joking, but kinda not. What happened?

I hope Toyota does better with the next 4runner.

Thanks for the insult. And what about the Tundra disappointed you? I'm curious.

Edit: saw your following post with a lot of words and not much comparison besides the camping battery. Little confused by the criteria you're claiming as making a useless outdated truck.

 

[Annolino122]

New 4R mid-2022 ? 4 cyl. ? If that is true, I will opt for a 2022, and the
4.0 engine. We have owned 6 4R's since 2008, never a problem, and excellent return on trades. I just cannot see the 4R with a 4 banger, especially pulling the max weight it is designed for.
Better they put a trans cooler with this 4 cyl. Pull 5K + lb tow up a mountain expressway ?

I will put my money on a '22, and be satisfied. Seems like designers are looking more at glamour and not guts nowadays. 4 Cyl - 4R ?

T 2

Again - just like the Tundra, ever measurable criteria will be better. But if you don't like the way all manufacturers are going to meet cafe standards then you're better off buying the 4.0 (I am doing the same, my wife has a 21' TRD Pro) - but that doesn't mean I won't own a 6th gen 4Runner also for a pure daily driver.
Just like I have a 4th gen with a V8, a 5th gen with the V6, I'll get a 6th gen with the new engine, "whatever it is" lol

 

[Annolino122]

Which makes his videos all the more amusing, as his engineering credentials are about as useful at predicting Toyota's future product plans as my T4R forum membership. But, I will admit, I hit subscribe. I am not proud.

This - and people insult engineers and manufacturers with 0 understading of what goes into designing and making a new vehicle. You can't just do "everything"... It's impossible and impractical. And then people ***** when a car has more features and the price goes up? I love it.

 

[Anthony88]

Again - just like the Tundra, ever measurable criteria will be better. But if you don't like the way all manufacturers are going to meet cafe standards then you're better off buying the 4.0 (I am doing the same, my wife has a 21' TRD Pro) - but that doesn't mean I won't own a 6th gen 4Runner also for a pure daily driver.
Just like I have a 4th gen with a V8, a 5th gen with the V6, I'll get a 6th gen with the new engine, "whatever it is" lol

I like the sound of a daily drivable 4runner!

 

[Annolino122]

I like the sound of a daily drivable 4runner!

Me too - I saw what they did with the tundra and know shat their trojectory for the 6th gen is and I have a feeling it's finally going to be a great daily driver. No griping about MPG, no clunky 5speed, all the things we love but I would love to replace in a daily haha

 

[mscot]

Thanks for the insult. And what about the Tundra disappointed you? I'm curious.

Edit: saw your following post with a lot of words and not much comparison besides the camping battery. Little confused by the criteria you're claiming as making a useless outdated truck.

In what areas does the new Tundra outperform any of the domestic trucks? (don't say reliability b/c that's a tired argument here and unproven on a new vehicle)

 

[qs933]

My general perception is that there was a lot more excitement about the new tundra before it was released than there is now after it's out. I still might end up buying one because I need a truck. But what was a sure thing is now a maybe. And definitely not a immediate order.

That’s generally been Toyota’s strength and/or strategy, however. Their vehicles rarely are at the extremes of anything in their class — best acceleration, best handling, most capacity, biggest size. None of that is typically the Toyota. It’s a harmonious execution without major flaws (coupled with the assumed reliability and resale value) that seems to tip the scale towards Toyota for the general consumer.

The Highlander and the Mazda CX-9 are good examples. The CX-9 is frequently the benchmark for handling and composure. Reviewers gush all over it. The Highlander is smaller, doesn’t handle quite as well, doesn’t get as many compliments about design, lacks some of the Mazda’s luxury features, and can be more expensive. Yet the Highlander stomps all over it from a sales perspective.

I think there was a lot of expectation built up around the Tundra and it probably fell short to some who were expecting something revolutionary, like a Cybertruck. I also think Toyota has attempted to make strides to connect at a different level with buyers — the current Camry, for example, is actually desirable beyond being a reliable appliance.

On that subject — Toyota’s traditional approach opens the doors to competition that can introduce something revolutionary and appeals on more levels than Toyota. Tesla is a good example of this, IMHO.