Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen
- Thread starter peter78
- Start date
Jalopnik is the absolute worst and has been for some time now. I still don't know how they are even alive. Just a bunch of clickbait woke BS that barely has anything to do with cars.
On a more positive note, I think that GX tease is very promising. Can't wait to see it.
Question about engine tuning b/c I am truly ignorant of it.
[MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] posted this:
"2024 GX 550 is V35A-FTS non-hybrid in a different tune against LX 600 at 409 hp; 479 lb-ft."
So if a V35A-FTS can have a tune in one car that gives it a higher amount of HP/lb-ft and then a tune in another car that gives it a lower amount. Could someone then tune the car with the lower amount to match the higher amount?
i.e. if someone buys a GX that has a V35A-FTS, could they tune it to match the output of the V35A-FTS in the LX600?
[MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] posted this:
"2024 GX 550 is V35A-FTS non-hybrid in a different tune against LX 600 at 409 hp; 479 lb-ft."
So if a V35A-FTS can have a tune in one car that gives it a higher amount of HP/lb-ft and then a tune in another car that gives it a lower amount. Could someone then tune the car with the lower amount to match the higher amount?
i.e. if someone buys a GX that has a V35A-FTS, could they tune it to match the output of the V35A-FTS in the LX600?
It’s possible there could be aftermarket companies who create different tunes for the engine, but unlikely Toyota/Lexus would offer this.
Back in the late 90’s-early 2000’s VW/Audi shared the 1.8 & 2.0 turbo 4’s. They made different power depending on application, with Audi offering more to match its upmarket position. APR offered tunes to boost both, allowing the VW to see significant increases.
It probably comes down to a couple factors; how “locked down” the Toyota/Lexus software is, and the demand for the aftermarket to produce a tune.
Jetboy
New member
Ford will give you the higher tunes for about $800 at the dealer. The ranger 270hp tune on the 4 cyl turbo can be tuned up to around 320hp on any trim. Toyota... not so much OEM. But the Lexus IS300 detuned 3.5L is the exact same engine as the IS350 as far as I can tell. It's a $500 tune away from more power than the IS350 factory tune.
The unknown on the V35A is whether it really is all the same. Ie - does it remove any parts with the detune like cooling capacity or anything along those lines. My guess is that the SR Tundra version is identical but for software. I think the issue in the GX is going to be cooling. The V35A has enormous cooling systems that they need to fit and if they may need to be downsized by lack of real estate to work with. And that will likely drive more limited power in order to manage heat. Smaller intercooler, smaller turbo coolers, smaller radiator. Maybe all of the above. My guess is that the GX will also need to consolidate some stuff like a single air filter box and that will have some additional restrictions on the intake side. The two airbox thing is just odd and a huge waste of under hood space. Plus it requires two snorkels if you wanted them. Pretty questionable engineering for a work vehicle IMO. Hope they ditch that idea on the GX.
The unknown on the V35A is whether it really is all the same. Ie - does it remove any parts with the detune like cooling capacity or anything along those lines. My guess is that the SR Tundra version is identical but for software. I think the issue in the GX is going to be cooling. The V35A has enormous cooling systems that they need to fit and if they may need to be downsized by lack of real estate to work with. And that will likely drive more limited power in order to manage heat. Smaller intercooler, smaller turbo coolers, smaller radiator. Maybe all of the above. My guess is that the GX will also need to consolidate some stuff like a single air filter box and that will have some additional restrictions on the intake side. The two airbox thing is just odd and a huge waste of under hood space. Plus it requires two snorkels if you wanted them. Pretty questionable engineering for a work vehicle IMO. Hope they ditch that idea on the GX.
[MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] Wow! 409hp and 479lb-ft are monster figures for the GX. That squarely puts it in P400 Defender territory which starts at $77k. Which makes sense if Toyota plans on moving the Lexus GX upmarket.
EDIT: I misread Carmaker1's post. He was saying a detuned V35 in comparison to the 409hp found in the LX.
That could lead to having the detuned SR motor of making 348hp. Splitting between the 295hp P300 Defender and the 395 hp P400 defender.
With the GX moving upmarket, I can see the following starting prices for each vehicle.
Lexus GX - $75k
Land Cruiser - $65k
4Runner TRD Pro - $55k
EDIT: and if it is a detuned engine, then the GX will most likely start around $65k - $70k. Definitely some overlap there.
EDIT: I misread Carmaker1's post. He was saying a detuned V35 in comparison to the 409hp found in the LX.
That could lead to having the detuned SR motor of making 348hp. Splitting between the 295hp P300 Defender and the 395 hp P400 defender.
With the GX moving upmarket, I can see the following starting prices for each vehicle.
Lexus GX - $75k
Land Cruiser - $65k
4Runner TRD Pro - $55k
EDIT: and if it is a detuned engine, then the GX will most likely start around $65k - $70k. Definitely some overlap there.
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Blackwatch
New member
The 4Runner TRD Pro is $55,000 now, it will most likely get a 10% bump. The GX is $59,000 now so that's a massive increase.
The vehicle that makes pricing hard is the Sequoia. A 4x4 TRD Off-Road is $64,000 with 437 HP/ 579 torque and is a hybrid. I know the Land Cruiser's name is iconic but Toyota would be trying to sell a LC with a 4cyl turbo hybrid with 100 less HP and 180 less torque for the same money as the Sequoia.
Then the GX, if it's $75,000 is roughly what a TRD Pro Sequoia is with more power in the Sequoia's favour...
And CarMaker... 2026 6th gen 4Runner? Wow!!!
gomiami
Member
I missed this piece of info on the last page until you mentioned it.
Toyota execs must be none too confident as to what the North American market wants in a 6th gen.
If they look at the trends, every vehicle is moving towards becoming a 3 cylinder turbo hybrid that has 23 Internet connections and gets 67 MPG. If they look at actual sales, the ancient 5th gen with its plastic interior, a USB port just for laughs and gets 19/16 MPG is still selling respectably against the Fords and Jeeps of the segment with their much newer styling and technology.
But, then again, it never made sense to me why they would re-introduce the Land Cruiser, introduce the Grand Highlander and update the 4R all around the same time. While they are all geared to somewhat separate markets, there will be overlap.
Overlap yes, but I think it comes down to as long as a vehicle is not an absolute sales flop relative to targets, manufacturers are definitely moving towards a reality in a lot of cases where they literally want a vehicle that can apply to as many "niches" as possible, especially as SUVs and cross-overs have taken over the US market.
For instance, The Grand Highlander exists because the Highlander was never particularly large by 3-row standards and the introduction of vehicles like the Palisade/Telluride twin, VW Atlas and Jeep Grand L necessitate Toyota having something bigger in their fleet that is unibody as opposed to body on frame (Sequoia).
A manufacturer would rather get your business or even have you cross shop a couple of vehicles from them (let's face it, 90% of people with a 4Runner in the US would be served better by a Highlander) than have you go across the street and buy from another manufacturer, at least if they are a volume manufacturer like Toyota or GM.
gomiami
Member
I hear what you are saying but it can't be particularly profitable to self-cannibalize and incur the cost of multiple production lines just to keep people from crossing the street to buy from another manufacturer. Toyota better be the one pulling people on the other side of the street to its side. Otherwise, one of the nameplates (LC, 4r or GH) will get the short end of the stick.
Jetboy
New member
IMO - First do be killed is the LX600. It's destined for the island of misfit toys. It's too limo to be a decent offroader, so expensive that almost all buyers lease it so they won't go offroad anyway, and too off road based to be a good limo. The TX will be the biggest and best highway riding SUV in Lexus trim. And the GX will be more offroad capable. The LX doesn't do either particularly well. What's the sales pitch? Buy it because it's the most expensive? I don't think it has bright future living alongside the GX and TX.
On the Toyota side - IMO the Sequoia is destined for the dust bin unless toyota offers it without a hybrid system and drops about $20k off the sticker. A Platinum Armada is $59k. It's a much better value proposition. Once the new wears off I think Sequoia is in trouble because it's both expensive and not very well designed. Grand Highlander IMO replaces a lot of sequoia buyers. Biggest issue with the GH is the powertrain. It isn't great. It needed to be on a GA-L platform with rwd bias and then it could get the turbo 6 and would kill the sequoia in short order. As it is - it's highly compromised by small engines.
I also think the USA market Land Cruiser will sell well for 3-5 years and then fall off. All indications are that the 4Runner and LC will be the same vehicle in different skin and the 4Runner will be significantly cheaper. I don't see both LC and 4Runner surviving side by side if they are the same vehicle with different skins and one is a lot cheaper than the other. Whichever is the lower cost version wins that every time. So I think in a few years we'll be back to 4runner and GX plus Lexus TX, possibly Sequoia if it gets a better layout non-hybrid, and the GH will be very successful as will the TX. That's my guess.
(edited for typos)
On the Toyota side - IMO the Sequoia is destined for the dust bin unless toyota offers it without a hybrid system and drops about $20k off the sticker. A Platinum Armada is $59k. It's a much better value proposition. Once the new wears off I think Sequoia is in trouble because it's both expensive and not very well designed. Grand Highlander IMO replaces a lot of sequoia buyers. Biggest issue with the GH is the powertrain. It isn't great. It needed to be on a GA-L platform with rwd bias and then it could get the turbo 6 and would kill the sequoia in short order. As it is - it's highly compromised by small engines.
I also think the USA market Land Cruiser will sell well for 3-5 years and then fall off. All indications are that the 4Runner and LC will be the same vehicle in different skin and the 4Runner will be significantly cheaper. I don't see both LC and 4Runner surviving side by side if they are the same vehicle with different skins and one is a lot cheaper than the other. Whichever is the lower cost version wins that every time. So I think in a few years we'll be back to 4runner and GX plus Lexus TX, possibly Sequoia if it gets a better layout non-hybrid, and the GH will be very successful as will the TX. That's my guess.
(edited for typos)
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Baystate4Runner
New member
409hp and 479lb-ft are not the GX numbers. Thos are the numbers of the current LX600. I think you misread Carmaker1's post as he was clearly naming those numbers as the LX600 ones.
gomiami
Member
It would be cool. I'd go out and buy a stock 409hp GX. Get to the grocery store quick.
MAST4R
New member
That's a good question about filling all niches vs simplifying offerings and production. I am personally a fan of simplicity from both production/business and from a consumer stand point. I wonder whether Toyota really knows the market or whether offering too many models is a sign of HQ bloat and lack of direction.
I would say ditch all Lexus SUVs as well as the Sequoia and leave the 4R and a 300-series LC as the standard-bearers of true offroaders with optional 35s and optional proper shocks for every trim.
When it comes to engines, all the complexity nowadays, the turbo+hybrid+start/stop+Fred Flinstone feet, is to me just the last gasp of ICE. Minimum gains relative to the price and potential for trouble down the road, or far offroad. The simpler the better for a Taco, 4R, LC.
I give Toyota the benefit of the doubt to design a reliable Frankenstein but the purist in me would rather have a V6/V8 or go straight EV.
I would say ditch all Lexus SUVs as well as the Sequoia and leave the 4R and a 300-series LC as the standard-bearers of true offroaders with optional 35s and optional proper shocks for every trim.
When it comes to engines, all the complexity nowadays, the turbo+hybrid+start/stop+Fred Flinstone feet, is to me just the last gasp of ICE. Minimum gains relative to the price and potential for trouble down the road, or far offroad. The simpler the better for a Taco, 4R, LC.
I give Toyota the benefit of the doubt to design a reliable Frankenstein but the purist in me would rather have a V6/V8 or go straight EV.
You wouldn't think so, but look at a manufacturer like Mercedes Benz (albeit, they finally seem to be killing some of their less popular iterations). At one point it felt like that manufacturer literally was trying to have a vehicle for every niche in the luxury customer. BMW has kind of gotten that way also.
You do end up with situations where a lot of shared components (and I imagine even assembly lines) exist though like the X3 and X4 (which just have the different rear body panels and a somewhat different rear suspension). I'll be honest that I'm not sure how much Toyota will be able to take advantage of this, but with everything going to these TNGA platforms...
I've always felt like the LX simply existed since it was largely a rebadged and repackaged LC for Toyota. Given how low LC sales were the last 5 to 10 years, I imagine LX numbers were even lower (but maybe I'm wrong). Plus I feel like as long as the LC is made for world markets, they'll keep bringing an iteration of it to the US assuming it's coming out of the same factory (which seems likely). I've always felt it served as a sort of offroad halo car for Toyota more than anything the last 15 to 20 years.
I do agree on the TX being positioned to be an absolute smash for Lexus though (and think the new GX will do well too). Lexus has always been limited by not having a real 3-row cross over (RXL was a joke), and quite frankly, even for midsizers, the RX Is downright tiny and has similar cargo capabilities (or worse) than many compact luxury SUVs, partially due to that incredible swept back rear design.
With the LX though; think about the LS? I honestly cannot recall seeing a recent LS on the road in years here in Arizona or during any travels. And Lexus keeps on making those
.I do agree on the Sequoia though. Part of me really likes the TRD Pro trim of it and would seriously consider one. BUT, if I consider the price is pushing towards $80K, the packaging is a disaster for people who want cargo carrying flexibility (I couldn't believe how the 2nd and 3rd row seats do not give flat surface), and all the initial reviews indicate it is also thirsty as hell and not able to even get close to its EPA estimates. I'm seeing people rolling around with them here, so they are definitely selling, but I don't really see the value proposition versus a lot of other $70K to $80K trucks you can get. Completely agree on the Armada being a smoking bargain now, but it's also based on a 10+ (15+? 20+?) year old design now.
johnnygraphic
Member
OP needs ti change title to 2025 or beyond. Lol
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[MENTION=670391]Blackwatch[/MENTION]
True but I think this point of view comes from the viewpoint that bigger is better. The Land Cruiser (of the same era) has always been smaller than the Sequoia, yet cost significantly more. Another comparison could be made about the Bronco Raptor. One could get a Ford Expedition Timberline for $76k starting. Getting a bigger engine with more HP and far more room. The Bronco Raptor starts at $86k and sells like hotcakes. Many people would prefer a smaller more capable off road package and would happily pay just as much (or in the full size Land Cruiser and Bronco's case, a whole lot more).
For me the latest Sequoia has been a major flop mainly stemming to its hybrid only sales approach. The hybrid powertrain puts a super high price floor to buy a Sequoia and on the technical side, the batteries for the hybrid system has completely destroyed cargo capacity and for me, makes the car a complete no go.
[MENTION=175515]Baystate4Runner[/MENTION]
You're right, I misunderstood and editing my previous post accordingly. It does lend credence that the upcoming GX could offer the SR Tundra's 348hp and 405 ftlbs tune. It would be a huge upgrade over the 4.6L V8 and put it right in line between the P300 and P400 Defender.
@AZCraig
IMO, AZcraig you're right on. One could say the Toyota lineup is getting bloated and that there will be overlap but manufacturers would much rather prefer to cannibalize their own sales then have customers leave for another brand.
and as you pointed out already, the whole point of Toyota moving to TNGA is to unify platforms and to lower overall costs across multiple vehicles. It is question mark as to truly how much they're saving but judging by how many niches Toyota is trying to fill, the development and tooling cost must be minimal to fork development off the TNGA "main branch" if you will. Thus making the business case for overlapping vehicles.
I think [MENTION=664438]TexasFunRunner[/MENTION]'s prediction is the most reasonable.
Lexus GX - Luxury off-road image
Land Cruiser - Retro off-road capability
4Runner - city hauler and off-road capability
There's enough demand for SUVs in today's market that these niches can be fulfilled. I'd like to add my own predictions to this thread
Lexus GX - luxury off-road a la Defender. Not the most capable but the best combination of luxury and capability.
Land Cruiser - Toyota USA's supreme off roader. From factory amazing approach and departure angles, 33" tires from factory, rear locker standard and maybe front locker.
4Runner - every man's off roader. Similar off-road capabilities to the GX without the leather.
True but I think this point of view comes from the viewpoint that bigger is better. The Land Cruiser (of the same era) has always been smaller than the Sequoia, yet cost significantly more. Another comparison could be made about the Bronco Raptor. One could get a Ford Expedition Timberline for $76k starting. Getting a bigger engine with more HP and far more room. The Bronco Raptor starts at $86k and sells like hotcakes. Many people would prefer a smaller more capable off road package and would happily pay just as much (or in the full size Land Cruiser and Bronco's case, a whole lot more).
For me the latest Sequoia has been a major flop mainly stemming to its hybrid only sales approach. The hybrid powertrain puts a super high price floor to buy a Sequoia and on the technical side, the batteries for the hybrid system has completely destroyed cargo capacity and for me, makes the car a complete no go.
[MENTION=175515]Baystate4Runner[/MENTION]
You're right, I misunderstood and editing my previous post accordingly. It does lend credence that the upcoming GX could offer the SR Tundra's 348hp and 405 ftlbs tune. It would be a huge upgrade over the 4.6L V8 and put it right in line between the P300 and P400 Defender.
@AZCraig
IMO, AZcraig you're right on. One could say the Toyota lineup is getting bloated and that there will be overlap but manufacturers would much rather prefer to cannibalize their own sales then have customers leave for another brand.
and as you pointed out already, the whole point of Toyota moving to TNGA is to unify platforms and to lower overall costs across multiple vehicles. It is question mark as to truly how much they're saving but judging by how many niches Toyota is trying to fill, the development and tooling cost must be minimal to fork development off the TNGA "main branch" if you will. Thus making the business case for overlapping vehicles.
I think [MENTION=664438]TexasFunRunner[/MENTION]'s prediction is the most reasonable.
Lexus GX - Luxury off-road image
Land Cruiser - Retro off-road capability
4Runner - city hauler and off-road capability
There's enough demand for SUVs in today's market that these niches can be fulfilled. I'd like to add my own predictions to this thread
Lexus GX - luxury off-road a la Defender. Not the most capable but the best combination of luxury and capability.
Land Cruiser - Toyota USA's supreme off roader. From factory amazing approach and departure angles, 33" tires from factory, rear locker standard and maybe front locker.
4Runner - every man's off roader. Similar off-road capabilities to the GX without the leather.
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All this discussion just demonstrates how complex the auto industry is. All us keyboard warriors like to think we know what Toyota should do or should have done, but it’s not that simple. I’m sure there’s some rhyme or reason for what’s coming…and even if there isn’t, no sense get worked up about it. But it’s still fun to speculate and read all the speculation.
I mean, if it were up to me, I would’ve scrapped all of Toyota’s sports cars and used the resources to launch a redesigned 4Runner several years ago. Don’t see the appeal of the GR86 or the Supra and wouldn’t buy one. I’m sure folks on those forums would disagree, though.
Looking forward to the 2024 Tacoma reveal on the 19th.
I mean, if it were up to me, I would’ve scrapped all of Toyota’s sports cars and used the resources to launch a redesigned 4Runner several years ago. Don’t see the appeal of the GR86 or the Supra and wouldn’t buy one. I’m sure folks on those forums would disagree, though.
Looking forward to the 2024 Tacoma reveal on the 19th.
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