Brake bleeding w/ABS w/o the SST tool? ...

[gman72]

I just did the brakes all around, all new rotors, all new pads + ebrake. All OEM. I screwed up on the front right as I had just finished the rears so didn't pay attention and endedup starting to take apart the caliper vs. unmounting it. Soon as fluid started dripping from the caliper I buttoned it back up and went back to the manual to realize ooooops.

Anyway, seems I got some air into the lines as the pedal is noticeably softer. I tried bleeding the FR but then starting reading about all this ABS stuff with the special tool to move the actuators. Fixable myself or should I just go to the dealer and have them flush/fill the whole system? The fluid looked pretty dirty so probably a good idea just to do the whole system after 120k mi., no idea what they'd charge.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

One of these days I need to diagram how to build a jumper box for the ABS system. The "old" SST (before we adopted the TIS TechStream) was essentially a jumper box that plugs into the harness with an adapter and manually activates the solenoids (using this type of tool meant you had to be careful not to leave the solenoids on too long and burn them out.)

I don't remember a non-scantool/SST driven way of doing the bleeding procedure in the FSM, I vaguely remember a member talking about how they managed to do it backyard method.

But more than likely you're going to need to take it to a dealership or shop that has a scantool capable of doing it.

 

[cabowally]

The FSM says you only need the computer for bleeding when you have touched the master.

BRAKE FLUID: BLEEDING

NOTICE:
Wash off brake fluid immediately if it comes into contact with a painted surface.
If the brake pedal is depressed with the reservoir cap removed, then brake fluid will spatter. HINT:
If any work is done on the brake system or if air in the brake lines is suspected, bleed the air from the system.
When bleeding, keep the amount of the fluid between the Min. and Max. lines on the reservoir.
FILL RESERVOIR WITH BRAKE FLUID
Fluid:
SAE J1703 or FMVSS NO. 116 DOT3
BLEED BRAKE BOOSTER W/ACCUMULATOR PUMP ASSEMBLY HINT: Perform this step only if the brake booster with accumulator pump assembly is removed and/or installed.
(a) Turn the ignition switch OFF, depress the brake pedal 20 times or more to release the pressure from the accumulator.
(b) Fully depress the brake pedal 10 times.
(c) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and start the brake booster pump.
(d) Make sure the pump operates for 8 to 14 seconds.
If the pump does not operate as specified, repeat steps (a) to (c) and recheck the operating time.
BLEED BRAKE LINE



(a) Front brake line
(1) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and wait until the pump motor has stopped.
(2) Connect the vinyl tube to the brake caliper.
(3) Depress the brake pedal several times, then loosen the bleeder plug with the pedal held down.
(4) At the point when the fluid stops coming out, tighten the bleeder plug, then release the brake pedal.
Torque: 11 Nm (112 kgf-cm, 8 ft-lbf)
(5) Repeat (3) and (4) until all the air in the fluid has been bled out.
(6) Repeat the above procedures to bleed the other brake line.



(b) Rear brake line
(1) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and depress the brake pedal.
(2) Connect the vinyl tube to the brake caliper.
(3) Loosen the bleeder plug and release air.
HINT: Brake fluid is sent through the pump, so keep the brake pedal depressed until the air is completely bled out.
(4) When the air is completely bled out of the brake fluid through the bleeder plug, tighten the bleeder plug.
Torque: 11 Nm (112 kgf-cm, 8 ft-lbf)
(5) Repeat the above procedures to bleed the other brake line.
BLEED MASTER CYLINDER SOLENOID HINT: Perform this step only if the master cylinder solenoid is removed and/or installed.
(a) Connect the Techstream to the DLC3.
(b) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position.
(c) Select "Active Test" mode on the Techstream.
(d) Connect the vinyl tube to the rear brake caliper.
(e) Loosen the bleeder plug.
(f) Select "TRAC Solenoid (SRMF & SRMR)" to drive the solenoids and bleed air from the rear brake caliper.
NOTICE: Do not depress the brake pedal.
HINT:
Brake fluid is sent through the pump.
To protect the solenoids, the Techstream turns OFF automatically 2 seconds after every solenoid has been turned ON.
(g) Repeat step (f) until all the air in the brake fluid is bled out.
(h) When the air is completely bled out of the brake fluid through the bleeder plug, tighten the bleeder plug.
Torque: 11 Nm (112 kgf-cm, 8 ft-lbf)
(i) Repeat the above procedures to bleed the other brake line.
(j) Turn the ignition switch OFF.
(k) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position.
(l) Clear DTC See: Antilock Brakes / Traction Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Reading and Clearing Diagnostic Trouble Codes.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

To be honest, some members and my coworkers haven't had the best of results with trying to bleed them manually. Worth a shot though?

 

[cabowally]

Good point. My experience has always been that bleeding anything is more of an art...and harder by yourself. Although, after a couple of passes it works.

 

[gman72]

Thanks guys, yeah I followed the procedure for the front right, doing solo sucks I probably went through 20x back and forth using a stick to push the brake pedal, then go bleed, then back/etc. Still getting bubbles.

I think I'll just take it in and get it done right. The jar full of fluid that I've bled out so far is awfully dirty anyway, pretty sure it's never been changed.

Blackworks I'd bet there's a mini-market for a custom SST... I looked 'em up and they're like $250+ for the Toyota one.

 

[gman72]

Just an update, was $140 at the dealer for full brake flush bleed. Getting ready for a trip so just needed it done, but man that sure felt like a rip! :wow: Guess I shoulda expected it tho as they wanted over $1500 for the timing belt job we did ourselves last week for <$500 parts. Maybe you really should get to work on that tool Blackworks....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Just an update, was $140 at the dealer for full brake flush bleed. Getting ready for a trip so just needed it done, but man that sure felt like a rip! :wow: Guess I shoulda expected it tho as they wanted over $1500 for the timing belt job we did ourselves last week for <$500 parts. Maybe you really should get to work on that tool Blackworks....

Well it should really only be about $700-ish for JUST a timing belt job. But the idea is that "while you've got it apart and on the rack" you do stuff like full coolant flush, transmission fluid flush, diff oil, oil change, ect ect hence why its recommended on the "major service."

The "old" SST is just a jumper box essentially, when I have some free-time at work I will see if I can find it and take a look at it; maybe even borrow it for a few days... not like we use it anymore.

 

[preacher35]

Not that it matters, but I have bled the lines on my '05 T4R on two different occasions with zero problems. The key, that I noticed was patience, a big ass bottle of brake fluid and an understanding wife.

 

[banzaj]

Why not buying a MiniVCI or similar Chinese diagnostic tool on Ebay for $50 - $100 instead and do the bleeding yourself?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Why not buying a MiniVCI or similar Chinese diagnostic tool on Ebay for $50 - $100 instead and do the bleeding yourself?

I've heard mixed reviews on those Chinese cables. Does the hacked/burned TIS software support the automated bleeding procedure? I like our Autel Scantool and it does about 95% of the TIS Techstream (checked it with one of our TIS Techstreams) but it did not have the automated bleeding procedure. The only reason I ask is that if people aren't careful and mindful of the duty cycles listed in the FSM when using manual procedures you can burn out the solenoid packs as they are pulse width modulated vs. constant power that manual bleeding induces (Something I guess I would have to factor into any "homemade SST" that I thought up...)

 

[Kmvreter]

Not that it matters, but I have bled the lines on my '05 T4R on two different occasions with zero problems. The key, that I noticed was patience, a big ass bottle of brake fluid and an understanding wife.

I agree. I've had to do it several times due to all the frozen caliper change outs. No issues once I followed the instructions posted earlier. The key I found was not hurrying the manual pumping of the brakes at the first stage (sections (a) and (b).) I use 10 second on and off easy strokes (3 pumps per minute) when depleting the accumulator pressure.
Repeat the bleeds at the wheels until no bubbles. I also let the system "settle" between attempts (take time for a coffee or a cold one) in order to let the air migrate in the lines.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I agree. I've had to do it several times due to all the frozen caliper change outs. No issues once I followed the instructions posted earlier. The key I found was not hurrying the manual pumping of the brakes at the first stage (sections (a) and (b).) I use 10 second on and off easy strokes (3 pumps per minute) when depleting the accumulator pressure.
Repeat the bleeds at the wheels until no bubbles. I also let the system "settle" between attempts (take time for a coffee or a cold one) in order to let the air migrate in the lines.

That's a level of patience many people don't have and technicians won't exercise often, but I can see it giving the best results manually.

 

[banzaj]

I've heard mixed reviews on those Chinese cables. Does the hacked/burned TIS software support the automated bleeding procedure?

There must be quite a number of different types on Ebay. The one I've tried included drivers and some software on CD that indeed allowed me to bleed the brakes by activating the solenoids for a couple of seconds and then automatically shutting off. I could also calibrate zero point, read and erase trouble codes, read data from two transmission temperature sensors and from a multitude of other sensors, turn DRL on/off, record a new TPMS sensor into the system, etc. The only trouble was that it only worked with 32-bit versions of Windows and it did best on XP. But I'm sure Chinese manufacturers update/ upgrade these things constantly.

 

[brc187]

Problem Bleeding

I've owned my 03 4runner limited for about 7 years now.
Recently my wife complained that her brakes felt funny. I drove it and the pedal was almost at the floor before i got any brake.

Pull the brakes apart and found 1 frozen piston on both front calipers and pretty worn pads front and rear. I decided to do new front calipers, rotors front and rear, and pads front and rear.

All went smooth until bleeding. With ignition key in the on position, I bleed all 4 brakes. I didnt get any air in the rear, and obviously it took a few times to get un-airated fluid.
With the ignition on the pedal feels very firm. I drop it down off the lift and go to back out and i loose all pedal. So i try rebleeding the whole system, same thing firm pedal until i start up and drive away.
I notice that i hear a pressurized air around coming from the rear bleeder nipples when they are open. Whats that all about?
What am i missing? It seems to me that there is some special procedure to bleeding these.

 

[DC runner]

I have bled my brake system 2 and never had an issue, nor even messed with the ABS.

2 years ago, I replaced both front calipers (each had a struck piston) and bled brakes at that time. No issues.

Noticed about 3 months ago, one of the rears was dragging and replaced both rear calipers. Again, bled the system. No issue and didn't touch the ABS.

The key to a really good brake bled is 2 people. I have bled brakes solo before and I sucks and never goes as well as with two people.

You really want that second person who can keep constant pressure on the pedal while your close the nipple bled vent. Doing that, going slow and starting from the farthest brake from the master cylinder will work great.

My .02 cents.

 

[brc187]

I always use two people as I'm not a huge fan of vacuum or pressure bleeding.
And yes I always start with farthest wheel from mc.
Did you do it with the truck running or just key on?

 

[Atlanta_man]

For my '05 I found instructions on this forum.
Bottom line: fronts are like any other car/truck
rears benefit from the ABS doing the pumping work for you (no pedal action needed)
just don't let the M Cylinder res run dry

and I forget what order you do them in, but it is not the old " furthest first "

 

[brc187]

So should I be doing he front first then the rear?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

The biggest point here is that if you have any air in the Master Cylinder, ABS Solenoid Pack, or you are trying this with the key on; you'll never get the air out of the system and you'll have issues. Hence why Toyota wants you to use a scantool to actuate the system when bleeding, not to mention that the way the system is designed it will basically do almost everything for you anyways.