Broken/Stretched lug stud issue solved

brockeverly

New member
So after some reading on this and other forums, it seems that a lot of people have an issue breaking or stretching lug studs with the recommended ft lb. I had the pleasure of dealing with this myself today, 13 times. Yes, 13 times. Discount Tire broke a lug on my truck yesterday, so they paid for a shop to replace it. Little did the shop know what they were in for. Long story short, I am fairly certain that we have found a very plausible scenario for these broken lugs. Toyota uses a lugnut with a permanent washer in place. If any oils, road grime, etc get into the space between the lugnut and this washer it makes it act as a bearing. When this happens, the tq wrench now will not see the 83ft lb when it is reaches it. Instead, this "bearing" will allow the lug to continue to spin without ever hitting the desired tq, thus causing the bolt to be stretched and/or broken. Be sure to spray some brake cleaner or something on your lugnuts if you are using anything other than german tq (gooodentyte).
:happens:
 
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I don't thing that contamination can affect the torque. The torque reading is neither based on friction between the bolt, nut or wheel nor the length of the bolt. the wrench will reach a certain torque it would click.
 
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I don't thing that contamination can affect the torque. The torque reading is neither based on friction between the bolt, nut or wheel nor the length of the bolt. the wranch will reach a certain pressure ant should click.
It didn't, and it does. Trust me, I dealt with this for almost five hours. Cleaned the lugnut in question and clicked on the first try. Skeptical, sure, but believe me.

In the other thread about this there was more info that I see I did not post here. In my situation when we put the lugnut on without a wheel on and tightened it down it torqued to 83ft lb without an issue, put the wheel back on and on the dirty lugnut stretched the stud immediately. Seems stupid, I know, but doesn't make it any less true.
 
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I don't thing that contamination can affect the torque. The torque reading is neither based on friction between the bolt, nut or wheel nor the length of the bolt. the wranch will reach a certain pressure ant should click.

I think brockeverly is correct here. I'm not 1engineer- but to say torque isn't based on friction between the wheel/nut/stud relationship is just plain silly. It takes friction to allow the torque to occur in the first place, right?

Errr- just hold on a minute until he shows to 'xplain everything. Ooooh- 1engineer! Bail me out here...:)
 
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Take a bolt, oil its threads and try to torque it; it will be torqued to almost the same number of turned as non-oiled bolt.
 
Take a bolt, oil its threads and try to torque it; it will be torqued to almost the same number of turned as non-oiled bolt.

Good point- however, take the same setup that's rusted and corroded and torque it. How will the extra friction effect the torque? It will give a false reading most certainly.
 
A properly calibrated torque wrench will always show the correct value, regardless of the bolt condition.
If the bolt is very rusted and corroded, there may be a case that it get stuck prematurely and the torque value will be reached when the bolt is not all the way in.
Friction will somewhat affect the point where the torque is achieved, but to break a lug that designed to withstand 83 ft-lb you have to exceed this value.
 
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What you are saying makes sense...but

I think brockeverly's OP makes sense too. I'll wait till the experts chime in. :shrug:
 
Lubrication, and conversley, grit, most certainly affect torque on a bolted joint. Adding lubrication when it's not specified can reduce torque between 15 & 25%. This isn't speculation; it's an accepted engineering rule of thumb.

A capscrew/nut combination, or stud/nut combination is designed to be stretched. Lubricating a fastener that is designed to be dry could over-tighten it. This can damage the threads or over-stretch the capscrew or stud past its elastic limit. If you do, you weaken the fastener system appreciably.

In other words, lubricating = easier turning = more bolt stretch before torque wrench "feels" it, and clicks or shows on an indicator.
 
It happened to me too the tire shop said they see it alot on Toyotas the reason they gave me was that they use a size 12 lug when it should be a size 14 or something like that. It sounds like a load of bull to me, but if I had the extra money just laying around I would switch them out anyway, can't go wrong with a stronger part.
 
Torque, when dealing with bolts and nuts, is a very simple formula that can get complicated real fast.

T = K × D × F

where T = torque, K = nut factor, sometimes called the friction factor, D = bolt diameter, and F = bolt tension generated during tightening. This formula is often called the short-form equation and you don't really want to see the long form expression.

Let me explain a few parts of this equation and the parts you folks are discussing:

T= Torque, which is sort of a way of measuring "clamp force" when dealing with your wheel studs. Other ways are used but I will leave those alone.

K= Nut or Friction factor....or in my world the CYA or fudge factor. Very important multiplier that can change for different applications and usually only determined by actual testing. In the situation you described it gets complicated. Here are some of the variables that could change the "K" factor in the equation: Is the bolt plated? Is the plating zinc? Is the bolt lubricated? If so, what type? What is the bolt's temperature? Has the bolt been pre loaded before? If so how many times and was the preload correct? And on...

D= Bolt Diameter

F= Bolt tension. The bolt tension is caused tightening. The bolt is stretched a bit during tightening. In some cases the thread can be deformed which you guys know as "stripping".

Bottom line: Can lug nut torque be changed by lubrication? You bet. How much? I have not a clue, sorry. Wiskey Wizard states a percentage and while that may be true in some applications I don't know if it applies here because:
A) Even though you have multiple lug nuts they act as one unit. The K factor will change depending on if all bolts are lubricated or only one, or two, etc.
B) Type of lubricant makes a huge difference. Don't say "It was oil" 'cause that won't help haha.
C) What was the temperature? Makes a big difference too.
D) How many times have they been torqued and were they torqued properly before?

All in all, it is a good idea to clean your bolt before torquing unless it was designed to be lubricated, which wheel studs are not. So yes, lubricating a wheel stud before torquing the lug nut could cause the stud to break because your torque values will be higher. Just don't know by how much. Hope this helps and tried to keep it simple.

Oh, Antman, your rust analogy was very good! BBB, there are some lubricants out there that will absolutely change the "real torque" vs. "measured" torque.
 
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^^ Holy smokes, Antman, see what you've done?

Anyway, a size 14 lug nut is 2 mm bigger than the stock 12. Not certain, but they might not fit.
 
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I think we are done here :D

I have spent hours and days debating this subject throughout the years with some of my colleagues. You really don't appreciate these formulas until you have set down with a clean sheet of paper and had to design a nut and bolt for a specific task because there was not one commercially available. Sometimes, when you need to hold stuff together that can generate 500K lbs/force you just can't go to NAPA and get it out of the bin haha!
 
Good time to post this for 1engineer, and others...from one of our writers named David Booth. Excellent read, (sorry about length).

The romantic view of engineering — if indeed there can be such a thing as a romantic view of engineering — is of the brilliant egghead toiling tirelessly in a lonely laboratory, the singularity of his or her genius conjuring up novel and unique ways to make his or her ever-evolving widget better. And, indeed, at the beginning of any engineering revolution, be it the first metal sword, the first airplane or the cars that are the subject matter of this column, the engineering world is full of ill-conceived contraptions as the adventurous but often misguided struggle to illuminate what is, at the beginning of any development cycle, a very long and dark tunnel.

Of course, if this is a soap opera, the script has to devolve into the romantic notion that (pardon my Ayn Rand) the purity of the singular genius is continually being thwarted by an evil collective. Thus, Charles Nelson Pogue’s infamous 100-miles-per-gallon carburetor was quashed by the might of the oil companies, Ferry Porsche’s iconic 911 has been supplanted by Cayennes and Panameras thanks to a committee of share-price-obsessed bureaucrats, and automobile design has become stodgily homogeneous because the large automakers are all in cahoots.

In reality, the homogeneity that purists so despise in modern automobile design is just the historical cycle of engineering development. At the birth of any technology, there are no rules, no guidelines and few expectations. Since whatever our mad genius is slaving over has not been done before, he or she can’t look back on previous developments, her or his drawing board literally the proverbial clean slate.

Of course, those same scientists, if they are at all competent, quickly dismiss failure. Engineers are nothing but clever backyard inventors who simply keep on trying different widgets until one doesn’t explode. (Thomas Edison is said to have tested thousands of potential fibrils before “cottoning” — almost by mistake — on to the carbonized bamboo filament that became the first successful light bulb.) The more brilliant — and, one presumes, successful — of minds quickly rejects the cockamamie and hones in on the probable. Throw in 100 years of failure, the processing power of supercomputers to weed out the improbable as well as constant refinement and what one gets in the “mature” phase of engineering is a general consensus on what works and what doesn’t. Compare any current technology — be it airplanes, automobiles or even the relatively new world of computers — to the same products in their infancy and you will find an incredible sameness to the modern as countless engineers rejected the mistakes of the past and converged on consensus.

The perfect automotive example of this evolutionary conformity is the recent introduction by BMW and Mercedes-Benz of small turbocharged fours in their entry-level luxury sedans. Once an idea singularly championed by Audi with its 1.8 and 2.0T fours, both BMW (in the X1, 328 and now 528) and Mercedes (C250) have abandoned their classic engine designs — normally aspirated in-line and vee sixes, respectively — for these same small turbocharged 1.8- and 2.0-litre engines.

The reason for this conformity is simple and essentially the same whenever any previously diverse product range becomes homogenized: The criteria set before the engineers became increasingly specific. In the case, for instance, of the 3 Series, C-Class and A4, all faced the same challenge — retain their previous powerful performance while meeting new, very specific fuel economy standards all without complicated and expensive hybrid or diesel technology. The key word in the previous sentence is “specific.” Chances are that, had all the manufacturers simply been challenged to achieve the best possible fuel economy for real-world conditions, their solutions might not have been so uniform. Each might have accessed its customer’s needs differently and come up with a different design.

But the fuel economy criteria that these engines were designed to meet are far more precise. Regulations governing fuel economy, it must be noted, are precisely defined test cycles that favour engines economical under light load conditions (low throttle openings at relatively low speeds), a forte of turbocharged engines. Whether these engines might actually improve real-world fuel economy appears to be incidental — or, at least, a secondary criterion. A cynic might even postulate that, like American high school curriculums, these new designs weren’t actually designed to improve the breed but rather pass some very specific tests.

And I think we can expect many more of these turbocharger-based solutions from our German friends. BMW is already in the process of dumping all its signature high-revving naturally aspirated engines from its M cars in favour of equally powerful but more EPA- and Transport Canada-friendly turbocharged variants. Audi already uses relatively small-displacement supercharged engines for its S-line and Mercedes has already started reducing the displacement of some its AMG models and slapping turbochargers under the hood.

That all three German luxury marques — Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi — have converged on exactly the same solution is simply the result of very specific requirements demanding a very specific solution. French philosopher François de La Rochefoucauld famously proclaimed that hypocrisy was vice’s tribute to virtue. Had Monsieur de la Rochefoucauld been an engineer instead of an autodidact, he might have instead noted that conformity is the price engineering pays for evolution.

[email protected]
 
Torque, when dealing with bolts and nuts, is a very simple formula that can get complicated real fast.

T = K × D × F

where T = torque, K = nut factor, sometimes called the friction factor, D = bolt diameter, and F = bolt tension generated during tightening. This formula is often called the short-form equation and you don't really want to see the long form expression.

Let me explain a few parts of this equation and the parts you folks are discussing:

T= Torque, which is sort of a way of measuring "clamp force" when dealing with your wheel studs. Other ways are used but I will leave those alone.

K= Nut or Friction factor....or in my world the CYA or fudge factor. Very important multiplier that can change for different applications and usually only determined by actual testing. In the situation you described it gets complicated. Here are some of the variables that could change the "K" factor in the equation: Is the bolt plated? Is the plating zinc? Is the bolt lubricated? If so, what type? What is the bolt's temperature? Has the bolt been pre loaded before? If so how many times and was the preload correct? And on...

D= Bolt Diameter

F= Bolt tension. The bolt tension is caused tightening. The bolt is stretched a bit during tightening. In some cases the thread can be deformed which you guys know as "stripping".

Bottom line: Can lug nut torque be changed by lubrication? You bet. How much? I have not a clue, sorry. Wiskey Wizard states a percentage and while that may be true in some applications I don't know if it applies here because:
A) Even though you have multiple lug nuts they act as one unit. The K factor will change depending on if all bolts are lubricated or only one, or two, etc.
B) Type of lubricant makes a huge difference. Don't say "It was oil" 'cause that won't help haha.
C) What was the temperature? Makes a big difference too.
D) How many times have they been torqued and were they torqued properly before?

All in all, it is a good idea to clean your bolt before torquing unless it was designed to be lubricated, which wheel studs are not. So yes, lubricating a wheel stud before torquing the lug nut could cause the stud to break because your torque values will be higher. Just don't know by how much. Hope this helps and tried to keep it simple.

Oh, Antman, your rust analogy was very good! BBB, there are some lubricants out there that will absolutely change the "real torque" vs. "measured" torque.

Uhhhhhh..What he said ^^
 
Good education!
Are you saying that even when the torque wrench clicks at 83 ft-lb, there could be higher torque at the bolt at the same time?
 
Good education!
Are you saying that even when the torque wrench clicks at 83 ft-lb, there could be higher torque at the bolt at the same time?

I think that what it means is that as "K" decreases (due to being lubricated), "F" must increase in order to achieve a constant torque "T" (83 ft-lb). This means that the lug is experiencing a greater axial load (pulling the bolt along its length) than it would otherwise if it were not lubricated. Increased axial loading results in an overly stretched bolt, which is weaker, has reduced life expectancy for repeated removal and reassembly, and is more likely to snap.
 
1engineer and egstyle have got it right. Less friction increases the load on the stud for the same torque.
 

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